Dies to Removal

For sure. When I saw him make the claim, I legitimately thought, "Is this real life? Did this actually do something?"

Well played DK.

Aaaand that's game. I knew the NK was there, well played scum. I've been silenced, so I can't do anything even if I wanted to.

I had been working on that post for a couple hours of back and forth work on it, I was just to lazy to pedit it I really wanted to crash Star.
I was just saying I noticed a serious trend of rcw being buddied, I don't think my post was too aggressive, and if it was I apologize, I just was making note of what I saw. Even I'm kind of posting in a daze this morning, but there are so many reasons as to why Dechs could already have won it is difficult to view him as scum.

So if myself, you, and Az are town, it's Stardust or Raspy right Dechs? Feelings aside we all know he either is or isn't a mafia member now, whereas Stardust is the next logical pick after that in my opinion. Even if Raspy flips town and say there is a NK, we'll still come out ahead silencer ability or not. Thoughts Az?

Red was the lover, not imopen2. Regardless, point made.
This isn't the first time I've seen this in regards to Raspy. Doing a quick reread of Dechs, a few things managed to catch my eye.
So... I brought up the fact about a cop checking out Raspy fairly early on. (Post 404)
I breezed over this with imopen2, for that I apologize. I wanted someone to cop Raspy to confirm for us way earlier. So, I do have to ask, why is 100% confirming someone is town or not the right choice for that night? Neutered or not? Anyway, continuing...

We lynch Ham, imopen reveals he's the Town JoAT, and then this little gem jumps out at me.. Raspy asks why Az was copped. And then Dechs follows up with this.
So it was a waste of resources when we were for sure lynching Jaime, but now it's a good idea after we breeze over the Raspy lynch in favor of Ham?

He even uses this as fuel to try and get the imopen bandwagon going.
He's been trying to get us off Raspy's case this whole time.
Following the "Even if he's scum he's neutered" approach still.
Quickly followed by
Oh look, once again it's made relevant he's neutered, what could RCW possibly do at this point?

Yeah. I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this. He's not Alien, because he definitely has a Silencer role. I'm willing to bet he's not a Werewolf either, otherwise I'm sure we would've seen at least ONE nightkill. He's not Cult, because Stardust has voted every day, so Dechs didn't use his ability on him. Early on in the game he was pretty hard after Raspy, after his initial lynch he didn't even try to get the guy lynched after that even though he's one of the most obvious choices. Could he be scum? Well he sure as hell came off a lot less towny to me. The only theory I really have in regards to it is that Dechs was the lone mafia player (Town Lover is fairly safe to false claim for alignment, three of us did it this game) who found out he had a scum buddy after the first night. Five left alive, we lynch Stardust because "Raspy isn't a threat", we're 2 and 2. The issue with that is obviously the severe lack of NKs this game. So is he a lyncher who's just been biding his time? Not sure, it's a headache which I'm going to try and leave it for toDay. I'm not lynching Stardust, and we're sure as hell not lynching Az, and if I have to try any harder to prove I'm town my eye's are going to fucking bleed. If I'm lynching anyone today, it's going to be Raspy. We lynch Raspy, even with a nightkill Dechs can't win if he does somehow turn out to have one. And in the other scenario I'm pretty much entirely against where Stardust does somehow turn out to be scum after all this time, same scenario holds true. We kill Raspy, myself, Dechs, and Az can still come out ahead tomorrow in votes.

Then finally say in the super off chance for me that Raspy actually is town, we're probably fucked, but I'm just not seeing that one being a thing. If it does I'll pray to fucking Google there isn't a NK floating around that could ruin the game.

I'll hold off voting to see if this sparks any discussion, I have to be at work in 6 hours so I'm going to crash.

Why? Witchhunt could very easily be scum with a cop/lover ability, couldn't he? Behaviorally, he's the person who disturbs me the most by far. He got a free pass due to the counter-claim for a while, but obviously that's bunk in a multiple scum-team scenario.

Why would a townie say he was going to play his role for the town?

Why the sarcastic roll eyes and complete dismissal of my case?

Because I'm not scum. I was prepared to die if it meant getting my obvious scum target. You're letting this game affect your thinking process too much and you're drawing poor conclusions.

I'm a Town 1 Shot Paranoid Gun Owner. I wanted to come off as town as possible so that way a NK would come my way. Lynch the scum, get another one with my death.

Az, all I have to say to that is lol. Last game I played I got NKed night one for being too town, I tried to keep my early play away from that.

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

This is an extremely valid question.

Red, you said you didn't get any information from the Mod that you're the only Lover. How would you know that a claim is a false claim?

... because my death, or the claimer's, would uncover the truth. I think that's pretty easy o_o;;

I feel like this is not the right time in the game for Lovers to reveal themselves. Preventing a lynch is one thing, because then a doctor can keep him in the clear. I feel like all this would do right now is paint a huge ass target that screams "Two for one or better" for anyone with a NK. I don't like it.

Vote: RedNihilist

I posted my thoughts on why you did it, even an opposing faction scum JoAT could've gotten some town cred, it didn't necessarily have to be lyncher.

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

Now I think that it would be a good time to claim being Lover.
Just for the sake of it.
Is anybody else in love with me?

Say there is an Alien faction with one NK, or a faction that has a NK that hasn't been using it, wouldn't claiming be the absolute worse thing the lovers could ever possibly do?

You're right, but I actually wanted to bait some false claim.
I'm 100% sure that, provided there's any other Lover out there, he wouldn't claim at this point of the game.

I get it. You chose a Lover ability, but since there are no other Lovers, you were reverted to Vanilla. Anyone who claimed Lover must have been lying.

Am I close?

I don't see where it states they revert to Vanilla, is this traditionally how Lovers work? Can anyone confirm or deny this?

To follow up with my statement, I went with a universal ability, not just one that limits me to tracking down one faction.

Azrael, I'm not saying you're calling WitchHunt town, I'm saying you should call him town. The card he used to counterclaim is the one he used for his alignment. Motivation for the CC doesn't factor in.

But we don't know it's the one he used for his alignment. He hasn't demonstrated an ability usage to say he doesn't have the Cop/Lover ability.

If I was a cop, I'd have used the shit out of that ability by now. I told you why I decided against it, dying as a group didn't sound like a plan to me, and there were more than just Mafia to worry about.

Now I think that it would be a good time to claim being Lover.
Just for the sake of it.
Is anybody else in love with me?

Say there is an Alien faction with one NK, or a faction that has a NK that hasn't been using it, wouldn't claiming be the absolute worse thing the lovers could ever possibly do?

Or I'm just being practical in a completely not-deperate, no-kill scum situation.

But whatever, like I said, I barely care if I'm lynched. You guys will go on to lynch a bunch of people and hopefully hit the scum. The coin toss is heavily in our favour either way.

Just please, for the love of god, stop saying that WitchHunt might be town because he counterclaimed scum! Because he counterclaimed scum, you know he used that town card for his alignment!

Thank you.

I discarded the ability of said Town card (cop/lover), got the ability of the second card, and then everyone can see I discarded my town conspiracy theorist card.

I stand by my logic, but I will concede that I didn't realize/remember that my result would only prove someone isn't mafia.

That being said, witchhunt, why would I block Jaime if I'm scum?

I never said you were a hard scum tell, I just was going to take another look at you to check for a certain pattern. I had a hunch that you were a Lyncher JoAT with Raspy being your target. Block another scum target, get put into a rough "town" pile. Then you didn't cop the one guy it would've helped for sure put in the clear as it was previously mentioned, especially in a game where I previously pointed out I didn't think a cop was as strong because of the werewolf and alien factions. Going back through the thread you guys were a back and forth, but you were pretty much always on his case. Even when you couldn't vote you pointed out how much you wished you could vote him, day three he was the first person you voted as well. That's not to say he was innocent from the beginning though, while I wanted to view you as a lyncher he did come off scummy as fuck from the get go, so I get your point, I do. It's just been nagging at me.

I'm still trying to get an idea on Red, but he's been on both lynching wagons while still passing off as relatively indifferent.

Raspy's early game came off scummy as fuck to me, but then it seemed to have rounded out later in the game. One can argue that now that's he's town he's trying to get rid of some of that bias, or now that he's mafia he's trying to throw us off his trail, but this whole case is just WIFOM bullshit. We could've cleared him too, that one still drives me nuts.

And seriously, what the fuck is this Dechs?

Vote Stardust

You just made almost the exact same point last page.

i targeted az with the cop because i consider he and stardust to be the two strongest players in this game and i don't want to join a cult via black goo. i like to know some people i can trust,

That's not at all what you did, though. You didn't prove that you could trust Az at all because we were already knew there's not a Mafia killing people. If Az can't be trusted, it's not because he's Mafia. It's because he's a lyncher or a cultist or an Alien or whatever other possibilities are left here. You just wasted your cop ability.

rather than investigate someone we're probably going to lynch no matter what

No. We wouldn't even consider lynching him if you could have cleared him. RCW was 50/50 mafia and the only target your cop ability could have done anything for. Now we have to waste a lynch and possibly even a teammate on the "only logical lynch." You may not have set this up, but you could have done something to stop it. I think you're the one with anti-town motivations here.

Vote Imopen

The only difference being Stardust expressed interest in some of my scum tells? Raspy being one of the most blatant everyone was already planning on lynching?

Cultists don't have a QT so I don't feel like there's really any kind of threat there. So Stardust being a oneshot recruiter for cultist makes no sense to me anymore since Ham had no real reason to sacrifice himself, so he's town in my book. Az has been super strong town for me, as has Dechs. I'm town, so that means I'm looking at imopen2, raspy, and Red. I'm going to look at doing a more thorough read through before I vote toDay though.

With the lack of nightkills, it feels like Jaime was probably the only one with one and we blocked him, so I'm not sure there's a mafia team at all really.

NM, I scrolled over it on accident. Reading.

The lack of night kills this game kind of disturbs me. Am I playing Mafia right now? I guess the balance thing mentioned was legit. I want to hear from Red, then I'll look at voting for Raspy depending on how things are looking.

Der. Theoretically we're 7-1-1, forgot Raspy's potentially town. I just woke up don't judge me.

Haven't heard from WitchHunt yet today.

Yeah, my bad. I've been working extra shifts at my store since Black Friday is around the corner. I have another twelves hours to go today but I managed to wake up a bit earlier this time.

So we're lynching Ham because he's an easy target then, followed by Raspy in case he was a Judas instead of Saulus. I personally highly doubt there was only two scum (Balance issues being warned or not). (Raspy and Jaime) Especially since one was werewolf and the other one was potentially a mafia that couldn't NK. So that put as at what, 7-1(Kind of Mafia)-1(Werewolf) to start? Theoretically now we're 6-1(Cult)-1(Werewolf)-1(Mafia)? I'm not opposed to the plan, I'm just saying I feel confident the game will still be going on after they're gone.

One nagging part in the very back of my head is telling me Stardust could actually be a Cult one shot recruiter trying to play himself off like a Black Goo, but I'm not getting anti towns vibe from him at all and coupled with Ham's behavior I'll look at it with a grain of salt.

He is or he isn't, copping him might not be a bad idea depending on how things turn out after this night.

I think copping him would be a waste of resources. We don't have a very strong reason to doubt his claim right now and he's read as complete town since the fastlynch. I think he's on the up and up. If we manage to lynch two scum and the game's still not over? Yeah, then we can talk about investigating him.

My point is, he's already on the radar. The devil you know and all that. Let's get some other folks out in the open first.

So, Jamie's the scum we hang today and RCW is the Saulus on the backburner for later. That leaves only two spots left to worry about.

Before we hang Jamie and end the Day, we need to get as much information as we can. My PM box was empty at the beginning of the Day.

RCW claimed he was silenced; that was me. I figured Jamie wasn't going to be leading any wagons so it wouldn't help to silence him. When you didn't hang I knew something was up and I did not trust you at the time, so I didn't want your vote influencing us today.

Does anyone have any night actions to report?

Alright, fair enough. Nada here, my night went peacefully.

Or even during I suppose.

He is or he isn't, copping him might not be a bad idea depending on how things turn out after this night.

Huh. No, I'd say you guys are pretty spot on. Isn't it also possible he had a false claim on the werewolf bit?

Vote: Jaime

Sticking to my guns here. What to do with Raspy comes next.

I do want to point out Jamie didn't even really try to dispute my counter claim, which is probably a good thing because the Cop/Lover card was mine and I'd have fought him to the death for it. Nor did he try to point out he made a false claim and follow it up with an honest one, but even at this point I wouldn't believe the third card after that whole case. In my book he's anti town, not much to gain in pushing further on this since he can't be lynched, but that's my stance on him.

Stardust pointed out something that threw me off about choosing which Townie should absorb the supersaint, that's been talked up quite a bit so I'll move on to my 2 cents here.

I personally didn't read into Ham having an idea about my alignment at all from that post, I more noticed Raspy over here trying to push the same premise on Ham knows Stardust is town and making it Ham also knows WitchHunt is town. I'm getting the vibe of Raspy trying to stoke the flames of suspicion on Ham here.

If someone has a pattern of scuminess I'm not going to ignore it just because I'm also under a little pressure. It's the same slip twice. Normally that's pretty telling but Stardust is right that there was more context I wasn't considering.

I'm coming back to this, I really feel like that secondary read on Ham was a just a poor attempt to make it seem like Ham was following some kind of pattern. I didn't get the same vibe out of his post at all, even with it partially relating to me.

Hell, I'd think that the kind of conviction you seem to want me to have would actually be scummy. Scum are the only ones who know for a fact who else is scum and who isn't.

Az is right on this, you seem to be all over the place in your various claims, I can't tell which one you want us to take seriously. Then we went through the whole scenario with you trying to convince us you're more likely to be town because of false probabilities? This makes me want to vote you more than anything else, there's legitimately no reason you discarding the cards you did makes you more likely to be town. As previously stated that's not how probability works. I want to see where we're at right now though before I do anything further.

@Mod: Vote Count Please?

*thinks* Maybe Witch is a lyncher, AND Jamie is mafia.

Are you a lyncher, Witch?

No, I'm not a lyncher, I just voted strongly for the person I counter claimed and I'll be after him again on Day 2 if I'm still around. Getting ready to head off to work, I'll make a post later on tonight when I get home.

I do want to point out Jamie didn't even really try to dispute my counter claim, which is probably a good thing because the Cop/Lover card was mine and I'd have fought him to the death for it. Nor did he try to point out he made a false claim and follow it up with an honest one, but even at this point I wouldn't believe the third card after that whole case. In my book he's anti town, not much to gain in pushing further on this since he can't be lynched, but that's my stance on him.

Stardust pointed out something that threw me off about choosing which Townie should absorb the supersaint, that's been talked up quite a bit so I'll move on to my 2 cents here.

I personally didn't read into Ham having an idea about my alignment at all from that post, I more noticed Raspy over here trying to push the same premise on Ham knows Stardust is town and making it Ham also knows WitchHunt is town. I'm getting the vibe of Raspy trying to stoke the flames of suspicion on Ham here.

Wha... what? Re-read the post please. The only time "You" was even used was "you're not" and "you're still" in the very last sentence. I digress, I won't push the subject any longer. Is anyone convinced by Jamie's refusal to claim?

That reasoning is piss poor, I have no real reason as anti town to come out of no where and make a counter claim this bold. My best case scenario as anti town would be going 1 for 1, which would be retarded and just a terrible trade. I'm town, you're not, even if this gets flipped around on me you're still dying on day two.

You had no opposition other than the person you are counterclaiming but you make a zero-content 'Look how town I am, being in a bandwagon' post. Maybe calm down before you post and not resort to saying mean things.

Its probably important to hear rcwraspy's post regarding reads on him first, before the day is over, regardless.

No anger or irrationality involved, nothing I said was directed at you either. If anything I'm happy that the one in a hundred chance came around for the counter claim.

That reasoning is piss poor, I have no real reason as anti town to come out of no where and make a counter claim this bold. My best case scenario as anti town would be going 1 for 1, which would be retarded and just a terrible trade. I'm town, you're not, even if this gets flipped around on me you're still dying on day two.

Similar reason to why I didn't like the fact so many conspiracy theorists were discarded, Aliens knew there were hardly any of them floating around, I didn't want Mafia to know there was one less cop floating around.

Well, I've got a little bit of announcement, while re-reading and playing catch up in the thread I caught onto this.

The card i took alignment from was cop/lover

Since people started revealing their alignment card its best for everyone to follow suit, since whatever advantage there is gets you killed.

I'm counter claiming, I didn't have Town Lover, I had Town Cop/Lover as my card. I realize a Cop is a reasonably powerful role, and the reason I didn't pick it as my card was because there were so many factions besides Mafia and when doubled with the Lover portion of the card I didn't feel too keen on it.

I'm okay with revealing my previous sketchy claim simply because the counter claim profit is too strong.

Vote: Jamie

I'm in it for the town. If this backfires and I get lynched or NKed, you'll know to take out Jamie next.

Or rather, it seemed like that was more like a negative than a positive to me.

I get what you mean now, my bad. I passed up being a town lover, dying with all the other lovers didn't seem like it would be any fun.

Were you dealt three town cards?

Obviously not. You can see I discarded one Mafia card.

Then what are you going on about this discarding this "other" town card? I chose the town aspect of one card and the ability of the other card, same as anyone else. I discarded the card I did not use at all.

So based on that, is this a good idea? Would you like me shot?

Personally? No, I'd rather you not get shot by a vig. If you were going to get killed for whatever reason, I'd much rather it be through a lynch than through a targeted ability, less risk for town that way. That being said I'm not exactly on board the lynch wagon at this point, the only post that really irks me is your claim. Every time I come back to it it leaves me a bit unsure, which I am fairly certain that was your plan.

4. Witchhunt - Discarded: Town Conspiracy Theorist
5. Hamfactorial - Discarded: Town Vanilla
7. Jamie - Discarded: Town Vanilla
8. Rednihilist - Discarded: Town Conspiracy Theorist

Alright guys, pony up. What's the "other" Town card you discarded? We know it's not a role you chose and you all seem to have the "gives the scum less information" defense, but it's bullshit. I want each of you to tell me the town card you discarded, because you must have had another town card and if you're making it up, chances are we'll be able to spot you.

Were you dealt three town cards?

This mother fucker, pointing out my typo like he's some top shit.

If there is a vig, I would say shoot dusty, his op is basically a huge piece of wifom, that I feel ultimately confuses the town more than anything

Those were my thoughts as well when I first read it. The only issue is we potentially lose two town members instead of one, because if Stardust flips town black goo, then we know damn well that vig is a cultist now.

What do you mean by "weed out some townies"?

The way I first read it was "If all of town targets him it puts town in a position to win", since turning a town member into a cult member isn't beneficial to town I viewed it a bit suspiciously and it would of course take some pretty stupid town to fall for it. Then it kind of dawned on me a bit late that they had to target you for you ability to affect them, which it's possible everyone in town can target you, but not likely. I still don't like they way it was worded and it makes cautious, but I'd say it's not much different from your blazing WIFOM, with that one we're damned if we do damned if we don't.

It is day one though, I probably shouldn't weigh too much into posts like that at this point.

Unvote

I like Dech's efforts on the numbers regarding cheesing your claim though. It also makes the risks of false claiming a little more apparent imo.

Even if the Aliens are underpowered they know two people discarded the Conspiracy Theorist cards, so they're probably feeling pretty confident. Then again, just as many Aliens were discarded as Theorists, so who knows?

Unvote: Jamie

As for Stardust, people targeting him as town just makes him lose. If he's actually town it makes sense why he wants people to not target, it hurts more than helps. That's either a well constructed ruse or an honest post, I'm willing to lean honest post. That in mind, I think the aggro on Stardust needs to be pulled back a little bit Dech.

It doesn't seem all that bad for you. The Black Goo's win condition is achieved when threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is left alive.

If you're alive, and every townie is converted to the cult, you win since you're town and count towards your own win condition.

I don't like this. I don't think there's a scenario where this comes out in his favor as black goo. It seems like a subtle attempt to weed out some townies to me.

Vote: Hamfactorial

Already off to a pretty interesting start here, such a bold claim right off the bat could go either way couldn't it? I'm not going to weigh into it too much this early on, I just feel like we could go in circles with the mind games the claim starts though.

To Raspy, no I did not edit my message. It was specified that if not enough town were in the game though, new cards would be sent out and roles would be repicked, don't know if that had something to do with it. I only received the one message however, so I don't know if this happened or not.

Vote: Jamie

Still no idea.