Dies to Removal

Well, i can't predict how much impact piledriver will have on the decks performances. What i know is that this deck was pretty good also before piledriver because, basically, it features the very effective gameplan of just killing the opponent as soon as possible. If burn is good, then also goblins are good. Burn will probably remain more competitive despite the printing of piledriver, but hey, goblins are goblins, and they are fun to play.

Of course there are differences between the two decks. For example, burn struggles against merfolks, while i always crushed them with goblins and now with piledriver i don't think i can ever lose. Goblins are softer to creature removal, but they are way better against counterspells due to a playset of cavern of souls.

As far as matchups go, well, robots always felt problematic to be honest ... you have to build a proper sideboard to beat them. Etched champion is just too good, and also skirge + plating could be game because we don't have that much removal. Of course, a huge first striking trampling piledriver could change the odds in this matchup too.
I feel pretty good against jund and tron instead. Yes, removal and sweepers are good against goblins, but not that good. We can just play haste creatures, bolt + grenade and kill them like burn would do. Kitchen Finks, for example, is much more scarier, and i guess CoCo decks will be hard to beat.

Guys, rejoice, piledriver joined our crew in modern !

If i have to be totally honest, I don't feel like he will make this deck tier one or anything. I have a little problem with him being a two drop that doesn't do anything relevant immediately. All the two drops i was playing before either had haste (spike jester, bushwhacker) or made tokens, so they were a little better against removal than piledriver. That said, he is just a very powerful card that deserves to be played. Like in legacy, his main functions will be: eat a removal spell/trade with a relevant creature like goyf/create an absurdly fast clock against combo decks/ CRUSH MERFOLKS all day long.

I feel like right now the list mostly builds itself :

[deck]
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Goblin Guide
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Spike Jester
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
4 Goblin Chieftain

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Grenade

4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Blood Crypt
4 Mountain
[/deck]

Patrick Chapin likes dragon fodder/krenko's command over war marshal, but i disagree because this way you are making opposing counterspells live (especially spell snare), that otherwise with a cavern on the field would be relegated to just try to counter a grenade or bolt.

I would like having a couple more one drops (2 fanatics) but i really don't know what to cut. Also would be nice to try rabblemaster because him and piledriver together are insane with legion loyalist. And with piledriver and rabblemaster opposing removal spells would be very taxed.

I'm not saying the build i posted is necessarily the best, but i think it's a good starting point if someone new wants to try this archetype.

Well, it is almost a year that i don't take this deck to an event, but l remember one of the worst matchups was pod that now doesn't exist. Other problematic cards like forked bolt and electrolyze now see very few play. The jund matchup was good so junk is probably good although they have access to lifegain. I'm pretty sure i would have good results now with this deck, just like last year. And i will try soon because at the end of the day i am playing burn or this in modern.

Also, mardu scout is potentially playable and it can replace spike jester if you are mono red. He may also make a card like Goblin Cohort become decent because you can cast the scout every turn

Hordeling outburst is a new card from khans that's barely playable. 3 creatures for one card is very good... but the big question is always the same : is it better than the option we already have like chieftain, goblin king, rabblemaster, shared animosity ? Probably not. Do we want to move the deck into a more midrangey direction upping the 3 drop count and fitting in some 4 drops like krenko ? Probably not. Another problem is that it isn't obviously castable with cavern of souls.
Still, i don't want to dismiss it too early because it could be great in recovering from boardwipes and has good sinergy with denizen and lords. A total new approach might be all in on tokens : 4 mogg war marshal, 4 dragon's fodder, 4 krenko's command, 4 hordeling outburst, 4 shared animosity ..... this kind of deck would lose in speed but gain in resiliency against removal .... but maybe would just be a worse version of B/W tokens.

Cool choice, and also a quite playable card, though a bit clunky.

If cavern couldn't pay kicker i could have unwillingly cheated a lot of times .... but no one ever protested and i think i asked about this thing to a judge immediately after cavern release ... but 2-3 years ago is too much to ask for me to remember

The spell can't be countered if the mana produced by Cavern of Souls is spent to cover any cost of the spell, even an additional cost such as a kicker cost. This is true even if you use the mana to pay an additional cost while casting a spell "without paying its mana cost."

this is on the ruling of cavern of souls.... but does this mean that you can pay red mana for the kicker cost with cavern ? now i'm in doubt

I think that you can, but i'm going to check cause i may be wrong.

Eagerly waiting for Val to determine his position in the goblins community, i give my last advice of the day that is to play 4 cavern of souls.

You need non cavern mana just for burn spells, and that land wins the game alone against deck relying on counterspells. With all the pressure we put, if they stay open just one turn for a counterspell and you land a cavern of souls you usually just win. Never play it turn one though, because no 1 mana counters are played that affect your 1 drop, and you actually want to hide cavern to make them stay open for a turn 2 spell snare/mana leak/remand.

To be king, Khaos did in Warchief, who did in Val, who did in ....

You know, there is no place for both because "to become king of the goblins, one must assassinate the previous king. Thus, only the most foolish seek positions of leadership" . But i think we can be a bit more intelligent than goblins and govern together. Simply put, you are the king, i am the warchief. And who is Val ??

Mad Auntie is the obvious lord you can play after 4 chieftains together with goblin king. It depends on how many mountains you expect to face (mountainwalk).

Yeah turn 1 denizen turn 2 jester is more damage by turn 2, but having turn 1 denizen turn 2 war marshal is most of the time more damage by turn 3 because denizen will trigger another time and you will have an extra body on the field to be pumped with chieftain/bushwhacker.

I'm so happy discussing about goblins ..... This is usually not possible in real life because when you open with auntie's hovel foundry street denizen your opponent thinks is facing an idiot
By the way, if you don't like war marshal and you like cackler, just try various configurations. I think in the end you will appreciate war marshal and see that cackler dissinergy with the deck can
sometimes be relevant, but the whole purpose of these discussions is improving the deck so you mustn't take my word or khaos word as a bible

Well , i spent most of my time playing modern fine tuning goblins and skred red. In part because i love goblins, in part because i am mainly a legacy player, in part because of budget concerns. Now that they will reprint the old fetches that i already own i will start contributing more on the burn thread too.

You all know your business, but do not try to compete with me about goblins

I thought about brimstone volley and it could be good (especially with war marshal...) but 3 mana is a lot to ask here and i suppose stoke the flames is better.

Yes, of course i meant that it triggers twice and then another time the next turn.

I understand your desire of having the fastest clock possible. The nut draw in this regard is always going to be turn 1 guide turn 2 jester ..... but since this is not always possible, your second best opener is turn 1 foundry street denizen turn 2 mogg war marshal in my opinion. That denizen is going to do a lot of damages if left unchecked.

He is not pumped by chieftain , but he also can't be sacrificed to grenade and can't be cast off cavern of souls. I wouldn't take these risks, and goblin cohort has two toughness by the way. But cohort too is risky and i would probably just play some mogg fanatics.

War marshal is not the fastest card in the world , but he triggers denizen three times and having 2 bodies is very good against heavy removal decks. Sometimes the extra token is just what you need to be able to cast a grenade for the win.

Basically my advices are always the same but this is because my R/B list in my first post in this thread has been tuned for quite a lot of time and i think it works extremely well. My only room for changes is the 21st land (keldon megaliths, i could see cutting it and going down to 20 lands), mogg fanatic/spikeshot elder (i could change them for other 1 drops or additional removal), and 4 grenades that sometimes feel
too much, but they really win a lot of games.

I like forked bolt, but you already have legion loyalist and goblin chieftain that overwhelm 1/1's. I would play it only if my meta was heavy on affinity/tokens/stuff like that.

Rakdos Cackler seems a bit out of place. I would maximize tattermunge maniacs or look at mogg fanatic/goblin cohort before running him.

About splashing : i agree there is no reason not to play black. Spike Jester is very good and sideboard slightly improves with access to black.

About Rabblemaster : the deck is all-in , or at least it is how i approach it. you need to have your opponent at 5 or less life untile turn 3-4 so that you can finish him with a grenade at any point of te game. Goblin Chieftain is better in dealing damage faster because he has haste and pumps all your guys and gives them haste. It is a bit of a risky card though, because when you attack with everything and they kill your chieftain it is a blowout... bushwhacker is much better than chieftain. But still i think chieftain is better than rabblemaster, because the latter pushes the deck more into a "midrange" style, being a standalone threat that needs to be dealt with or take over the game, but not doing nothing impressive immediately. I think this deck is all about speed
and not standalone threats ..... but i can see potential so tell us your testing results.

Be cool, turn to the dark side of goblins. Enjoy suicidal charges with spike jesters, blood from the sky with rain of gore, let all feel joy in pain with rakdos charms.

I could make a tv spot.

Khaos , aren't you willing to give a try to the black splash ? Rakdos charm is an awesome sideboard card and Spike jester is a real upgrade to krenko's command. Turn 1 Guide turn 2 Jester is almost unbeatable for some decks.

Rabblemaster may have a place because it creates board presence on its own and have good sinergy with legion loyalist, but i prefer playing some goblin kings or simply cut all the 3 drops besides 4 goblin chieftain that are untouchable.

I'd never play obelisk of urd. I don't play shared animosity because it is not a creature and does nothing against heavy removal decks. I've lost too many games by topdecking a shared animosity instead of a creature, and obelisk is even worse because you must skip a whole turn of attacking to play it.

Stoke the flames is a nice card but we already have 4 lightning bolt and 4 goblin grenades, and we really can't afford to cut creatures. However i can see playing 4 bolts 4 grenades 2 flames, or even 4 bolts 3 grenades 3 flames since goblin grenade can be a problem when you have it in multiples.

A "bigger" version of goblins with a higher curve can be played in modern.
It features aether vials , siege-gang, krenko and usually a splash color that can be black for wort boggart auntie / mad auntie or green for Lead the Stampede . I honestly believe it doesn't have the tools to fight a long game against the top tier decks, but if i had to try it i would go with the Stampede version because it can generate a lot of card advantage.

I beat several times double anger of the gods from jund. Pyroclasm is much more scarier than anger because it comes down earlier, but anyway sweepers are not unbeatable.
The key to me is to run as much haste creatures as you can (that's why i prefer Spike Jester), so that you can consider all of them like a burn spell with a body. If all your creatures die after having dealt some amount of damage, that's fine, because you will eventually topdeck a grenade and kill your opponent with it.

There is not much U tron can do against goblins, especially if you are running a playset of cavern of souls

My favorite game i had with goblins was winning on turn 3 against ad nauseam. His relevant plays were turn 1 serum visions, turn 2 tapped shockland pass the turn. Then he died to goblin guide + spike jester + double grenade.

no one is interested in little goblins .... or maybe i just scared everyone with my last post

I've been playing goblins in modern for quite a long time now, and i win a lot more than i should with a deck like this. Sometimes i fall victim to flooding screwing, but most of the times opponents aren't prepared against me and i destroy everyone. Last saturday i won a 20 people event, beating jund, affinity, affinity, draw into top 8, then beat bg rock, uw control, and split the final against martyr life which i could never have beaten. If i had all the fetches (i just own 3 arid mesas for modern), i would probably play red deck wins or 3 color burn, but i'm starting to think goblins is on par if not better than burn. My current list is :

[deck]
4 Goblin Guide
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Grenade
4 Spike Jester
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Bushwhacker
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Spikeshot Elder
1 Goblin King

4 Blood Crypt
4
Cavern of Souls
4 Auntie's Hovel
3 Arid Mesa
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Mountain
1 Keldon Megaliths

[/deck]



Sideboard:
[deck]
4 Rakdos Charm
2 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
2 Dismember
2 Shatterstorm
2 Shattering Spree
1 Rain of Gore[/deck]

I strongly advise splashing black. Essentially the splash is "free" because you have access to Auntie's Hovel, Cavern of Souls and Blackcleave Cliffs which basically have no drawback. Cavern doesn't let you cast burn spells or sideboard cards but you have enough colored sources (17) to make even a double colored non goblin card (rakdos charm is the only one) castable without many issues. I would always play some caverns because thay absolutely wreck decks with counterspells, giving you free wins when you have a cavern and they have some number of remand/mana leak/deprive/spell snare in hand. Actually being able to avoid counterspells is to me one of the best reasons to run this deck instead of burn or red deck wins.
The
one of keldon megaliths was included recently because i want a 21st land since i run 5 3 drops wich are quite essential to the deck... but in the end i could get off also with 20 lands so i'm fine having a come into play tapped mana source that can add reach or kill weenies. Before of megaliths i was running two mutavaults but i was having troubles with coloured sources, so i first cut to only one mutavault then switched to megaliths wich is better in my opinion.

The only main deck black card is Spike Jester, but men he is really worth the splash.... turn one guide turn 2 jester is game everytime they don't have an answer immediately.... 7 damages by turn 2 is too much to handle for almost any opponent. from the side rakdos charm is unbelievably good for its versatility, allowing you to have access to extra artifact removal against robots, hate cards against twin strategies, or grave hate. Thoughtseize is good but not fantastic.. it usually comes in against combo, control, or midrange decks with
sweepers, even if sometimes it creates awkward situations when you wish to topdeck a burn spell and you draw the discard spell instead. 4 discard spells are definitely too much i think, since you can't dilute creature count too much and you will never win without an explosive start. Dismember was combust before, but goyf can create problem so this is the answer (or Terminate if you prefer). Blood Moon doesn't need explanation , it wrecks opponents, just beware not having too much rakdos charms /spike jester/thoughtseize in your deck if you side in moon. Rain of gore and artifact hate are meta calls since my lgs always represents 2-3 affinity and the occasional soul sister (not that i have hope against it, but i believe in the one of rain of gore )

Regarding main deck, i think the flexible slots are just the three one ofs. Everything else is needed to me.... at first i was a bit skeptical about 4 loyalists but you'll
be surprised how good it is against a lot of decks. Even when his abilities are not relevant at all, a raging goblin is decent int his deck. Khaos will disagree with not running 4 mogg fanatic, but i don't think this is the kind of deck where fanatic shines. You just want to race and if you don't win soon you won't win (well, sometimes games go long because you manage to get them at 5 life or less, then they just can't attack and you play draw go until you find a grenade/bolt and win.... but this doesn't change the fact that you need to heavily attack their life total immediately),and i usually don't want to waste my one drop to kill a mana dork because i need to race. Obviously more fanatics would be good against affinity or pestermites, but you can't have them all and i think is better to run cards that are functional to your main strategy. the only other kind of slow card is mogg war marshal, but he is a must to me because he provides more bodies against removal and combos nicely with foundry
street denizen and goblin grenade.... mogg war marshal is like our silvergill adept, because a 1/1 is like an extra card to us

What else to say.... i can't stress enough that you just race you mustn't oversideboard with this deck, because it works in a comboish manner. The first cards to come out are always a couple of goblin grenades, because they get worse with less goblins in the deck, then you start shaving the less efficients creatures.

Worst matchup is soul sisters for obvious reasons and affinity preboard, because the only realistic option is to race them and is often very difficult due to etched champion or vault skirge + cranial plating or they just race you although you are generally a bit faster. Midrange decks are even matchups , but overall i have a positive record against jund. Control decks are quite favourable especially if you have cavern of souls. Merfolk and G/W hatebears are a cakewalk.
Straight combo /ad nauseam, living end) is not as bad as it may seem because when undisrupted i always win by turn 4 and a decent number of times by turn 3. Twin is even. Pod is quite unfavourable due to voice of resurgence /persist creatures which are a beating for us.

Most problematic cards are electrolyze, kitchen finks, voice of resurgence. Sweepers are bad but not terribly bad because if they tap out sorcery speed then they are facing a deck with almost only haste creatures and burn spells, so you are able to deal damage immediately.

Shared Animosity is really win more.... you can play a one off but almost always you would prefer a creature to it. I lost more games than i won because of it.

Sorry for the long and boring post, but i just wanted to share everything i know about goblins in modern..... i could for sure add more but this is enough for now. And thanks to khaos for having opened this thread.