Dies to Removal

You already trust dead people not to post in the game thread. Seems odd to make a new QT just to disclude someone when they could just be told not to post.

But yeah, they definitely play mafia a lot differently all over.

No, normally they can only talk at Night. I'm guessing you're used to much faster paced games, Jamie? The need to discuss targets etc is the main reason why Nights last about 72 hours in these games.

Daychat is one of the most powerful scum abilities. The fact that you had to choose between that and an unblockable/unkillable ability was pretty cool.

That's true. Then you solo it all the way to endgame where we catch you based on role PM formatting. Okay, maybe it's the same.

And get killed by kpaca's bomb! That would have made for a different game.

What inconsistency?

So what was your plan? What did you think Red was talking about if not your behaviour not aligning with a Survivor role?

There wasn't any want at all to my scum read on you. Your play this game made no sense for a few different reasons. I was willing to let that slide to an extent (being offset by your cop claim), but once you claimed Survivor, that was all out the window.

You played a fantastic game, Red.

Quoted for truth.

(Yes, I just quoted myself)

I thought you were scum for one reason only - process of elimination. Even then you convinced me multiple times to unvote based on your extremely townie posts. You didn't really deserve to lose this game, but such is life. Even though you might wish it, I'll never forget how fooled I was by your play this game.

No exaggeration, you are probably the best scum player I've ever seen.

I agree that the setup was very swingy (although it would have been less so with 14 players), but I wanted to capture the unpredictable feeling of the show, and I think I did okay at that.

Well if that was your goal, I'd say you succeeded! All my predictions based on mod gaming were wrong.

That's a powerful mafia team! Day 2 loss was a possibility here, but glad we made it through in the end. We did have a lot of kills on our side, but I still think the choice to make the cop a survivor was a strange one.

Anyway, it was a fun game, so thanks for modding, imopen!

My biggest question is to kpaca: What's up with the dog!?

Well, I don't feel too bad considering you would have been lynched twice already of hammy hadn't taken his sweet time.

And this, dear friends, is why sample vanilla role PM's are a good idea. You played a fantastic game, Red.

Vote RedNihilist.

So... I guess that's that? Anything else to say, Red?

Well mine says Charming, so...

ham, can you confirm? Given that I'm not technically part of SAMCRO, maybe I have a different wincon.

Well that's interesting. Did you paraphrase those words at all, Red?

No, we are not intentionally modkilling here. Doing so is against the spirit of the game and, in imopen's place, would cause me to declare the victory of whatever faction the offender wasn't. I'm all for Red talking about his win condition, but he is not going to attempt to get modkilled.

I'll probably hammer in a couple days since "Aquaman" has requested more time. If he's able to display a solid scum motivation in Red and is able to explain his actions Day 3 in the context of his Survivor claim, I would consider changing my vote.

I'm not defending him, I was clarifying the same point that I've been trying to make the last few days, but that you continue to give unsatisfactory answers for.

Where else did I defend Red?

The fact that he wasn't doesn't mean anything. The fact that he didn't care means he's not a survivor. That's why it means he's scum.

Also, I really don't appreciate you responding to something I had directed at red. Ive posted a few things that you could reply to.

I don't really have much to comment on other than the fact that you seem to be going on... not much. You rundown all of Red's posts and apply scum motivation to a few of them. While that's possible, it's not really convincing by themselves. You ask him a question about your own post that you don't understand yourself, then accuse him of strawmanning when that definitely doesn't apply.

All in all, I'm happy to watch you guys go back and forth a bit since I'm definitely not as sure as I'd like to be. I only stepped in because you were clearly misunderstanding what Red meant. He's basically just echoing the same concerns I brought up earlier: that your Day 3 didn't look like a Survivor at all.

Rezombad posted a lot.
Rezombad claimed cop.
Naturally he would be night killed.
Rezombad didn't care.

The fact that he wasn't doesn't mean anything. The fact that he didn't care means he's not a survivor. That's why it means he's scum.

Who is Deputy Hale? Is he an important character?

What do you think of rezombad's reaction to my questions? Do you (or would you) believe that rezmo is scum, or is it just that you believe ham and I are town? If you do see something scummy in him, what is it?

Of course, one or the other could be lying about their character, but it's a start. Were there any other obvious picks for bad guys in Season 1? We've got two federal officers as bad guys so far. Did anyone work closely with WitchHunt's character, June Stahl, specifically?

hammy, where are you at right now on rez vs. Red? I don't think your criticism of Red's actions early in Day 4 hold much water - him voting rez made perfect sense in my opinion, though he likely would have done the same if he was town or scum. His after-the-fact paranoia of me felt a little forced though.

ham, can you also talk a bit about Red's character? "Gemma Teller-Morrow, mother raspy, wife of somebody, former wife of somebody else etc etc". From my reading it sounded like she was the overarching bad guy of the series, but was loyal through Season 1. Is that accurate? If you were designing this game (with only Season 1 in mind), would you make that a town role or a scum role?

Likewise, you talked a bit about rezmo's character, "Wayne being a survivor cop (his character has cancer, and was a cop during S1 before retiring)". I read a bit about him too, and though he was a cop, he didn't really play both sides. It sounded like he was actually quite loyal to SAMCRO, and believed they were good for the town overall. Is that accurate? If you were designing this game, could you see making that a scum role?

Where's Red? I want to get his opinion on all this.

I don't see what that has to do with you being paranoid. Explain?

Maybe you can take this as a compliment, but I don't see you as a bad player. I think you would have realised these possibilities and acted according to your win condition. For example, counter claiming in the same manner that I did: saying there was something wrong with the role PM and leave it at that so you don't become a high priority target.

Secondary question: why was your immediate response "because paranoia" if you didn't really have something in mind? What were you paranoid about?

Well then stop scaring me!


rez, WitchHunt was already going down. At least, it looked probable. Your claim pushed that further, but if I had been in your shoes, I wouldn't have claimed. At least, not until I saw the wagon falling apart (and even then, why should you care? Lynching town is just as good so long as you're not the nightkill). I think claiming cop put you at a much greater risk of being nightkilled without giving a survivor any benefit. Therefore, you are not a survivor, therefore you are lying scum.

Unless you had some other reason to claim. That's why I'm asking.

Huh. I didn't realise that I super hammered there. That long post was not for justification though. It was for my own peace of mind.

I'm town, and I think you'll realise that just reading today alone.

1) imopen's opening flavour makes it very clear that someone tried to protect rcw. That couldn't have been anyone but me.

2) I was also the last to claim, meaning that I had no reason to fear a tracker - claiming my targets as they were wouldn't make sense from scumStardust's position since I could have easily claimed to have protected rezombad last night (especially after my write-up to imopen, which would have had to have been fabricated) and... I dunno, rezombad the night before as well, I guess? kpaca wasn't the most obvious choice anyway.

3) What reason would I have to bring up the Godfather? There's a solid townie reason for doing so, so you might say, "To appear townie," but I already had Red and rezmo both voting for each other. That's exactly where I would have wanted to stay if I was scum. If the conversation stays between those two (which it almost certainly would have), I'm set.

4) If rezombad is telling the truth (and he would have to be if I'm scum) then a Godfather doesn't make a huge amount of sense in this setup anyway. A neutral cop is not something that needs to be balanced against.

I guess that's all I've got. Seems like an easy call from where I'm sitting, but yeah, paranoia, etc.

Er, uh, no, four out of the last five.

Also, town doesn't win very often here

What makes you say that? Town has won or tied the last five games on this site.

I was worried about getting nked n3 even if someone town got lynched.

Why?

Also, I don't think you answered any of my questions. Most importantly, why did you claim?

Probably something involving getting someone mislynched.

For example? I feel like you did exactly this with me already.

I was so sold on you being scum d3, that I was considering lying about my target in order to lynch you.

Or considering lying to get me mislynched and seal the game?

So let's talk Godfathers again. hammy found that role on the wiki that perfectly explains everything that happened (apart from the opening flavour, maybe). I'm a Godfather who can't be killed and I lied about being a doctor. My kill is not unblockable, as shown by the fact that hammy's ability blocked it, so I must be lying about being a doctor because clearly the scum kill can be blocked. That was a major screw up on my part, messing up my claim like that, right? Surely you must be doubting your town read on me now?

But the fact is that you just shouldn't care. You're a survivor. It doesn't matter if you win with town. So why do you care so much? This ties in with my questions about your choice of cop targets. Why do you care? Why did you push against me so hard Day 3 when you must have known that I would stand a very good chance of killing you if I was the last scum? Since we were in mylo, why didn't you just sit back and relax? Did you even consider outing yourself as a Survivor at that point so you could align with the scum team for the win? Sure as hell would have given you a better chance of surviving the Night than claiming cop.

All in all, what you're saying right now doesn't sound like townrezombad and your Day 3 really didn't sound like a survivor at all.

Meh.

I don't know if he's a neutral, or a survivor, but I believe that he's a cop.

Above this quote you state that his reversal of attitude on me is consistent with a cop result. While that's true, rezombad had already claimed cop, so could have played along with the fake result he had already decided to make. The only actual evidence that rezmo is a cop is that one small breadcrumb regarding Jamie. That's good, but fairly weak, and counteracted (I think) by the fact that he didn't even consider the possibility that I was a Godfather. There was reasoning for that, but it doesn't strike me as townrezombad to be so trusting of a result in my case.

I'm looking forward to your read on RedNihilist, ham, because I'm a bit at a loss. I think I'm favouring a rezombad lynch now, and that scares me a bit.

... you're scum, we vote for a no lynch, you kill somebody (I guess ham) overnight and I enter Day 5 with scumYou and this Stardust guy that's trying to break the record for the guy who types "Vote RedNihilist" the most.

Red, if you are town, you really really don't need to worry about me being a Godfather. The opening Day 4 flavour basically clears me as town. The only reason I brought that up was because rezombad calling me town was making me uncomfortable. A cop result on me was not enough for that kind of certainty, especially not from rezombad who is the most paranoid town player I know.

This post is super solid. In answer to your interactions with DK, I was referring to the fact that you didn't want to lynch him following the neutral claim. I read that as slightly scummy in itself, but the fact that you seemed convinced that he was neutral specifically (and not lying mafia) is a bigger issue for me.

Because I totally was like 'oh man, with the SK gone, the scum could totally gambit, use their bulletproof to get town creds and ride that to the end'.

Yeah, except for the fact that you claimed right now that you're not even town, so explain me how that could have made your life more difficult.

rezombad, I want you to talk about this. Why did you choose the players you did in light of the fact that you're a survivor?

Also, when you claimed cop Day 3, you suggested that you were going to be nightkilled following that. Was that a big concern for you? Why claim at all at that point?

I'm some kind of badass mafia guy who, instead of winning day3, immediately bussed my partner after his claim... When he botched the cop part specifically

Explain to me how you would have gone about winning Day 3 if you were scum. You tried and failed to get a wagon going on me. I post saying that I think the most likely scum team is rezombad and WitchHunt (which I still needed to confirm). Red votes for WitchHunt. WitchHunt votes for you, then goes all-in against you with a false claim.

Oh shit! This probably clears you as town based solely on WitchHunt's claim. He claimed to have a vig-shot attached to his JOAT role, which was a lie. If he lynched his scum buddy and failed to fire that night... he could have claimed to be roleblocked, I guess? Shit. This game is surprisingly hard. Especially since WitchHunt probably didn't expect to survive - he was probably planning for his lynch.

Anyway, my original point was that you, as WitchHunt's buddy, did not make the first move. He pushed against you after his own wagon started, which is pretty standard scum play, really. You pushed back equally hard which says nothing about your alignment since bussing in mylo is really super safe if you can pull it off.

So yeah, legit question there. If you were scum, what would you have done to seal the game Day 3?

It's just really strange. Not that it matters, but I can't quite figure out how that last scum role is supposed to work.