Dies to Removal

hamfactorial

boo hissssssss

hamfactorial

How did you fuck the game up?

hamfactorial

@ Ham; can you explain Jones as null for me? Did you have Doc as null?

I had Doc as null mostly based on limited memory. I did a re-read of Doc after I read your question and his posts look town, especially this one where he's refusing to be pushed around by you browbeating him.

As for MoJones, all he's done since he's replaced is asked for a summary, refused to read the thread, said he was town, and disappear. He probably is, even though he's not doing anything.

hamfactorial

Stardust's dogged pursuit of Z makes him look scummy to me. I read Z as town earlier, so when I saw Stardust on him I assume malice.

Also he said mean things and I'm sensitive

Freedom went along with Z's plan to test raspy's unlynchable claim at the start of day 2. Either they're both scummy and I'm being fooled by them acting in concert, or he's super town. Note his good posts and analysis of the bus driver ability after night 1.

hamfactorial

I'm good at math, not interpreting passive aggression. What's incorrect about my mod analysis? I posit that Suga wouldn't replace Z into a mafia role because he'd have an advantage from town interaction prior to death.

Town:
Freedom
G_R
Z
Wraith
Raspy

Null:
Mogadishu Jones
imopen2

Scum:
Stardust

hamfactorial

Finished up with my re-read from the beginning of day 2.

I was thinking earlier about Suga's decision to replace Z back into the game. In the interest of game integrity and balance, I don't think Suga would have a player replace in and give him a bunch of role information that put him or his team at a clear advantage.

We know that old Z was town Kait, the doctor, so there are two possibilities that I see from the mod's perspective.

1. Z replaces into a town role with no advantage (vanilla)
2. Z replaces into a mafia role

Possibility #2 gives a ton of new information to newly-scum Z, as he would now know the alignment of 2-3 mafia players, as well as every non-mafia player. I assume that Suga hasn't set up 2 separate mafia teams in a game this small.

From a mod's perspective, the least disruptive choice is to replace Z into another town role. I assume this has happened.

Perhaps it's dangerous to
modgame (got me mislynched in Ragnarok), but it's on my mind.

Is my interpretation valid?

hamfactorial

Ok, I'll post my day 2 thoughts during lunch (2.5 hours from now).

hamfactorial

Ok, I'm here. Talked to Suga via PM, I'm not feeling up to speed at all but willing to catch up if you're all ok with it.

If not, I'll replace out. Maybe Z can manage to replace twice in the same game? New DTR record!

hamfactorial

Vote rcwraspy

hamfactorial

Now would be a good time to post Ham.

Yup, just finished reading through from page 13 on my lunch break. Seems like a fun game, but once again I have no idea what's going on. I shouldn't have signed up for this game because I don't have the time for it like I did in Ragnarok.

hamfactorial

Wraith:

What acronyms are you confused by? This is my 2nd game but I spent a while on the mafiascum wiki in my first game and can help out. Calling a player scummy because they use jargon seems unwise.

hamfactorial

Wraith:

I got here on day 1 after RVS was over, it was too late to vote for lullz. I've fallen behind because of work, but it's easing up and I'm trying to keep pace.

hamfactorial

Pie:

Z's play this game was extra aggressive, but it still felt town to me. Why did you have a scum read on him?

Could you point me to a scummy post or posts from GR? I'm on my phone so searching through the thread is unfriendly.

hamfactorial

I had Pie in my scum list from last night, but he was the only one I could point at with a real reason. The other two, Raspy and LMD, were there as a result of lurking. I said Z was town in my reply to him, and he's clearly picking things up faster than me, but then he says here that Pie and Stardust are confirmed town. Pie tried to start up a wagon on Z with this post, then they bicker for a while until Rez kills Z.

Now I don't know what to think. Why did Z read Pie as town, and Pie read Z as scum? Either the whole thing is an elaborate setup to catch bandwagons (which Rez screwed up with the vig), or Z was completely wrong about Pie being town.

Aww shit. Just when I was about to declare both zem and Ipad as townies fighting each other the evil twin shows up and pulls the trigger.

In case it's not real... both of them have taken quite the risks if either was scum. No way all of this is busing. So I conclude that they're both town.

If the kill is legit, whatever you people do, DO NOT LYNCH THE VIGILANTE. Not toDay at least.

Why shouldn't we lynch the vigilante? I'm not sure how this should work in mafia theory land. I clicked on this link but the MafiaScum wiki seems to be down. I'd appreciate some background on this from more experienced players.

Stardust's Wall of Text

Stardust, why are you wanting to kick up discussion on rcw when we have plenty of information in front of us at the moment?

I'm not exactly opposed, but I'm not liking you wanting to kickstart a conversation without offering any sort of content yourself first. Seems like you're just trying to be distracting.
Because you were going after a townie and someone I have no interest in voting for. Yes, I am offering up another (hopefully better) option. My reasoning for leaving it vague was because you were leaving the GR case vague. I wanted to see who picked up my bait vs. yours, thinking that might be telling in the coming Days. I think we're both trying to be too clever for our own good.

So here's a case!

rcwraspy's [url=viewtopic.php?f=13&
amp;t=2064&p=160303#p160303]third post of the game[/url], first out of RVS. Gives freedom some advice, then kicks dirt Z's way by saying "fake claiming during RVS and trying to quick-lynch someone who hasn't posted any content yet" helps the scum. Even so, he asks for more of the same from Z, hoping he can somehow prove the day-cop thing? I thought that helped the scum... 1) He wants more talking about roles and 2) Apparently he's taking the claim seriously, yet holds his vote on Z.

Next up, two posts back to back where rcw furthers his interest in seeing role discussion (mine), then unvotes Z. "The vote may come back when I do, depending on content and my reads" allows rcw to gauge the gamestate on his return. He takes no stance whatesoever on either the gambit or the claims. All his focus is on the wagon, not the why.
n
Now a big post:
@Stardust - Not pissed that you didn't give Z a yes or no at all. Power roles should be kept quiet right now, though I know you like breadcrumbs. I said it will be interesting to see what you say - in other words, interesting to see how you respond and what we can take away from it, not necessarily expecting a "yes I'm a cop" or "no I'm not a cop." Regarding the takeaway - so far
This bit reminds me very much of this post in Ragnarok. It's kinda... weak? Like, getting involved in the least involved way possible.

RE: Freedom. Wow what a tell, but way too good to be true. Noobtown through and through - safe day 1 and likely day 2 also.
1) Believes it without question, 2) Quotes another player ("too good to be true"), 3) Follows the crowd, calling him noobtown without mentioning that it's based on freedom's townie follow-up.

re: Zem. Honestly he's reading more "try-hard town" to me than anything else right now. I'm having a hard time lining up scum motivations for a lot of his remarks and questions, though it could be as simple as either trying to appear the most town or trying to get people to sheep his targets.
"Honestly&
quot; is a weak scum tell in this context. More importantly, fence-sits like nobodies business on zem. This is further reinforced by this post later on. He was obviously pretty unsure about his town read before my post, but then he verbalizes very clearly, "Oh, shucks, I guess he might be scum after all!" ... I think he's acting.

Questions my town read on Doc despite having a town read himself. This makes no sense from a town perspective. Scum care a lot about who is confirmed town and who isn't both for nightkilling and for planning the next mislynch. Town accept that things are unknown and work with what they have. He wasn't going to make a case on Doc regardless of my read. That question is useless coming from town (and something townies don't
generally think about at all).

And then his response to Z's flip. 1) Pretty fake? and 2) Blames rezombad when a number of people thought Z could be scum (including rcw himself if you're following along!)

This looks like a thorough case, and I thought Raspy's response to Z's kill was pretty disingenuous as well. Now he's here responding to you and being more involved. You've played with him before, does he perk up when addressed, or is this just coincidence that the two of you are here at the same time?

hamfactorial

I'm off work for the night, going to hit the climbing gym (DYEL?) and catch up on the thread in the morning. Please pose questions to me, it will be easier to reply than to generate fresh analysis while catching up at the same time.

hamfactorial

Desperately looking for meaningful content from:

- Hamfactorial (you've acknowledged reading the thread; I have asked you to start asking questions twice. If you're unclear about everyone, how are you going to become less unclear?)
- Freedom (you earned a lot of town cred with your responses to the slip, now be a good townie and find scum please)
- LMD (stop lurking bro).

Going to re-read G_R now; please address my question regarding your case on him when you get a chance Pie. I won't be happy if you turn around with "all will be revealed at some point in the future" or yet another deflection. Start making a real case.

I'll try to step up my contributions when I have more free time.

Re. your earlier question on mafia reads,
I find Pie scummy because of his earlier stated strategy of actively working on his town game (page 3). Fill the roster with LMD and raspy because of lurking.

I think you're town, but this aggressive stuff is going to really confuse the new players who haven't seen mode 7 Z. Plus, my god the text walls!

hamfactorial

Z:

I agree re. 218, I spent 30 minutes reading and then finally got ready to ppst but nothing worthwhile came up except that bit about Pie channeling Kaze. The rest of this is just a black box for me. A bunch of question marks accusing each other.

If this game moved slower, I might be able to keep pace. Ragnarok started and ended in about a day of real time where I was twiddling my thumbs at work. Nothing like that right now, things are nuts with end of fiscal year projects. I'm typing this on my phone in the bathroom, Watchdog style.

I don't have strong mafia reads on anyone right now, it all just looks like a bunch of frustrated townies snarking at each other.

You want 3 names? Sure, but they're going to be pretty useless. Even following along in Ragnarok after I was lynched, I couldn't tell who was mafia until the last day and the b.s. vanilla town claim from raspy. Still interested?

hamfactorial

Some of them are about plays and reads. I can keep those to myself for now.
Please don't. If you're wondering why someone did something, it's probably something out of the ordinary. At worst it gives the weird thing a second set of (more experienced) eyes, and at best you get your question answered and maybe gain some insight into why someone chose to do what they did (which really is the core of this game, when you get right down to it). Questioning people and their plays is the best way to gain information.
What is a try-hard
townie? Is that an official role or just a derisive nickname to someone who's being pushy?

Is it ever safe for a Town player to assume, in a 12 player game, how many people are in Mafia roles? I mean, is there a standard formula for how many scum roles to fill or is it entirely up to the mod?

It seems very town for someone to encourage people to get out there and hunt scum. But it seems very scum for someone to encourage people to hunt in such a way that promotes paranoia. To say that you just need to get out there and start swinging in relative proximity to saying that lurking is a scumtell seems, to me, to be encouraging sloppy plays. Am I overthinking that too?

There's a lot of passive-aggressive behavior in mafia games, in my experience. Try-hard townie is just a derisive nickname for someone who is giving clear town signals but not attaining the mythical perfect balance of "not town enough" and "too town". Get ready for lots of eye-roll smilies and
accusations of WIFOM in response to legitimate analysis. Pretend you're in a sorority house and it will feel more reasonable.

hamfactorial

Jesus guys, it's really difficult to keep track of what you guys are arguing about with all these text walls and poorly formatted quotes. DTR's forum software is the worst, so maybe it's not your fault, but I've had to read from page 2 to here twice just to figure out who's arguing about what.

Regarding freedom, I don't think that was a scum slip, I think he was just trying to make a joke which was poorly received.

Some posts I found worthy of comment

I don't usually do this, even when catching up, but after playing a few mafia games where I've rolled VT, I've realized I really, really need to improve my town game, so I'm trying something completely different.

Kaze did this same thing in Ragnarok
Mafia, actively talking about the town things he wished to work on in the first few pages of the thread, then spending most of the game looking neutral and asking me questions. He ended up being mafia.

I'm gonna try and post this type of thing occassionally:

Read In Case Of Death (1)
3. freedom
7. Stardust
8. imopen2

2. DocLawless
12. Rezombad

4. Hamfactorial
10. LMD

5. rcwraspy
9. wraith223

1. Zemanjaski
11. G_R
If I'm NK'd, or if everyone goes on a simultaneous heroin binge and shank-lynches me, please refer to the most previously updated list if you have no idea who's scum and town and need a starting point. Thanks.

I like the idea of T/S snapshots, but I don't know what to make of it since there's no legend. Are mafia at the bottom? Are the
player pair/triplets significant?

Sorry about missing this post, have interactions with so many people going on!

Z: I don't see anything especially wrong with ham's play so far. It is a little surprising that he didn't comment on your fake claim, but this is his second game, right? Not everyone takes to mafia as quickly as you
Sure, but the way he reacted specifically is a bit iffy to me. I might be overthinking it, but I would rather start from a position of suspicion.

My comment about not thinking about who to lynch before the game started was in response to
you saying I would "only" lynch ham with a cop result. What exactly would I base my decision to lynch ham on other than your fake result? He had zero posts at that point...this is what I'm talking about when I say your questions aren't thoughtful. You misrepresented my position (saying that I would ONLY lynch ham based on a confirmed scum result) and then asked me why I held that position.

It is scummy to go into a game and already consider lynching people before they post.

I would lynch ham as soon as I felt he was scum. At the time of your gambit he had zero posts and at this point he has two I believe.

My opinion on him is null, like most of my reads, until he posts more.
I think we're misunderstanding each other. I didn't mean to suggest that you would only lynch with a confirmed cop result; I was finding it strange that you thought that me not leading with the gambit in my first post was relevant. I've got enough info on this point now to satisfy my
curiosity, but please do ask more questions if you have them.

I thought your day-cop gambit was clever, but I was late to the party in responding to it. By the time I had checked in, you had already gotten into it with Stardust regarding the fake claim, admitted it was a gambit to draw information out, and seemed satisfied. After the great Ragnarok Stardust's fake one-shot SNAFU, this one seemed pretty tame. I asked about multiple cop roles to further my understanding of mafia, since I'm learning how to read between the lines in a game.

A few posters have asked for more information from me, so I'll see what else jumps out at me from the thread. I'm here on my desktop for another 30 minutes or so before I go into work, but then posting from my phone will be very unsophisticated. No multi-quotes, etc.

hamfactorial

EBWODP: Caught up from page 2, meant to say.

hamfactorial

Lots of interesting things happening in here. I got caught up from page but I don't have time tonight. MTGO has some maintenance downtime tomorrow morning, so I'll use that time to pick through the thread and respond to questions or comments directed at me instead of grinding against neckbeards.

hamfactorial

@ Hamfactorial

Checking in for the first time, man these FoS-populated games move fast. I'm heading into work, so I'll be browsing from my phone during breaks.

Is there any precedence for having multiple cop roles in the same game?
Why don't you deny my accusation?

This reads like you're asking your scum buddies whether or not you could be caught already (and look, Stardust responded!).

If you're town, don't do what you did last time and sit around asking theory questions, that got you mislynched. Roll your sleeves up and start throwing
some punches. I'll even give you a hand, do some analysis of RCWraspy when you get a chance. He finds my play scummy but doesn't want to vote for me, what do you make of that? How does that serve town?

Have fun at work redbro, I know I am

I checked into the thread on page 2 for the first time and found that you'd already gotten into a mess involving a cop role with Stardust. You were similarly aggressive in Ragnarok Mafia, so the vote on me didn't seem out of place. You voted me on day 1 there, too, but you didn't include a bonus power role gambit.

As we discussed in the closing page there, it was TubeHunter's ridiculous neighbor kill on you that got me lynched by association. Asking about theory didn't get me mislynched then, but I see your point about digging harder.

I'll read raspy's posts again after this reply.

hamfactorial

Checking in for the first time, man these FoS-populated games move fast. I'm heading into work, so I'll be browsing from my phone during breaks.

Is there any precedence for having multiple cop roles in the same game?

hamfactorial

/confirm

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