Dies to Removal

Woof

Red:

You bussing WH looked so strange to me in the ISO that I figured you couldn't be scum. You were the first vote on his wagon, and his role looked too useful to give up that easily.

I feel badly for Red, catching him with a role PM seems kind of lame considering how well he played. I thought it was rez until he brought up the win con stuff.

Also thank you for modding

Do you have chat links?

You're killing me smalls!

Yay flavor gaming!

Vote Red

Man, I didn't expect that finish.

Mine says Charming.

Ah, well the win-con discussion is interesting at least.

My role PM says that I win when all X to Y are Z.

If Red can tell me the three words X, Y and Z, he's totes town.

There's a lot of text today, and I'm reading it with interest. There may be more, but it doesn't look like anyone has any last minute information to pull out. Waiting any longer will likely just make my characteristic waffling worse.

I think Stardust is town, and it looks like rez and Red both agree. If he's fooling all three of us, well played.

I think the last scum is between Red and rez, and I think rez is the more likely candidate based on his D3 play not jiving with a Survivor claim.

vote rez

Hale is the next in line behind Unser. He's not super important, but he's on the show for a few seasons. He's anti-SAMCRO and fights with Unser about how to deal with the Sons.

hammy, where are you at right now on rez vs. Red? I don't think your criticism of Red's actions early in Day 4 hold much water - him voting rez made perfect sense in my opinion, though he likely would have done the same if he was town or scum. His after-the-fact paranoia of me felt a little forced though.

ham, can you also talk a bit about Red's character? "Gemma Teller-Morrow, mother raspy, wife of somebody, former wife of somebody else etc etc". From my reading it sounded like she was the overarching bad guy of the series, but was loyal through Season 1. Is that accurate? If you were designing this game (with only Season 1 in mind), would you make that a town role or a scum role?

Likewise, you talked a bit about rezmo's character, "Wayne being a survivor cop (his character has cancer, and was a cop during S1 before retiring)". I read a bit about him too, and though he was a cop, he didn't really play both sides. It sounded like he was actually quite loyal to SAMCRO, and believed they were good for the town overall. Is that accurate? If you were designing this game, could you see making that a scum role?

I feel ridiculous discussing the flavor, but it's been too well-aligned thus far to be a coincidence.

Gemma is the most duplicitous "good guy" character on the show, with my character a close second. In S1 she isn't as awful, though, and loyalties are strongly tied to SAMCRO.

Wayne is similar, but more loyal to the club in later seasons after he retires. He starts out as a police chief, but he works closely with SAMCRO and looks the other way on most of their small crimes. He knew Gemma when they were young.

If I made either of the two characters scum, it would be Gemma. Going based off just S1 though, I'd say Wayne Unser makes a better fit as law enforcement. The SK and the dead scum were both Feds.

If rez is scum, he's likely a cop but not Wayne Unser. My guess would be Deputy Hale.

I also have trouble seeing Gemma as VT because she's involved with so much shit. She's an excellent manipulator, not doing the dirty work herself but knows all the dirt. She and my character, Clay, conspired to kill Jackson's dad (her husband) while he was in Ireland dealing with IRA gun smugglers.

Stardust:

I figured you were town after your "meh" response to Red's observation about rez's 2/3 cop results. A scum player would have encouraged me to pursue that one, especially if it lead to an outcome you wanted.

That's a lynch!

Vote count #9:

Witchhunt(5): red, rez, ham, rcw, stardust
Rez(1): Witchhunt
Not Voting(0):
With 6 alive, it is 4 to lynch

Witchhunt has been gunned down by the citizens of Charming.

He was:
June Stahl - Role Blocker/Role Cop - Scum

It is now Night 3. Do not post. All night actions must be submitted by Saturday 2/28 at 11:59pm Central Standard Time. Day will begin sometime on Sunday or Monday.

I also notice that Stardust appeared to hammer, but he was the 5th vote on a wagon that only needed 4.

He went through a lot of effort to justify his vote, but it wasn't even necessary.

Further, before WitchHunt died he rambled on about a rez / Red scum team.

I'm curious now whether that was a way to hide his scum partner through WIFOM, or the possibility that neither were scum, and it's been Stardust all along. He did target two people who died, after all, and that's a possible play to argue against Tracker results, if the game had them.

Here's the ISO read of RedN, which I cut short to ask him about his rez vote.

-----

Finished up my read of RedNihilist.

His posting history strikes me as townie after D2 starts, and doesn't let up until the weird D4 stuff which I'll get into later.

Here he gets on Jamie for not actively contributing to the discussion. Recall the cloud that Jamie was under that day for his "explain the NK" scum tell.

Is a post like that really considered mean?
You've got to be kidding me.
I called you out on the fact that you didn't actually put *any* kind of pressure on anyone, you just attempted to lurk your way out on day 1 and, when people noticed you, you just pointed your finger at me and LMD trying to deflect attention.

I actually asked you to go on with your accusations in order to have you generate some more content, but you decided to avoid doing such a thing.
Now, I'm sorry that you're "angry" at my posts, but you can't SERIOUSLY expect to have people not notice the way you're just avoiding commitment and trying to dodge pressure.

Then after the Jamie wagon disbanded, he expressed his annoyance -

God, I guess I have to reread things over.
I'm not really happy of your choice of letting Jamie go without getting anything more from him than a simple handwave.

This looks like townie frustration to me.

Then on D3 we explore raspy's vig shot, after I push to have him claim it.

I've misread your case, that question is completely irrelevant.

I can give you a response on why I would have rather preferred if raspy had waited before claiming if you want, but I'd rather prefer to read what Stardust is going to reply about your case.

He then further explains why he didn't want the vig to claim right away -

I've misread your case, that question is completely irrelevant.

I can give you a response on why I would have rather preferred if raspy had waited before claiming if you want, but I'd rather prefer to read what Stardust is going to reply about your case.

Why do you want to wait for stardust? He explained why he thought the vig shouldn't claim, you should too.

I wanted to have some content before the claim for two reasons:
- scum knows the alignment, of every player, having them try to force a case (we're in mid/late game now, they can't just try to lurk their way to the next day) that could be easily debunked by a semi-verifiable claim could be difficult to handle for them;
- we also had the choice of no lynching in order to try to break parity, but with doing so right now would be senseless as they'd probably just NK raspy now.

This feels townie to me, too. Denying the scum team the ability to fake claim by withholding information is a smart play, but not forever. By looking to wait a bit, he introduces some risk into the scum fake claim scenario.

The Red drops his magnum opus, the towniest town post that ever a town did post -

With nobody counterclaiming raspy I consider him confirmed town, as I don't expect this setup to be unbalanced to the point of having a neutral aligned sk AND a scumteam that can daykill.

That means that we've got two confirmed town out of 6 alive players, so there are two scum llayers between you, rezmo and Stardust.

Now, I don't really like Stardust's attitude in saying that sooner or later we're going to lynch him because *random rant*, but he's being consistent with other games so whatever.

Rezmo on the other side has taken a strong stance against him since day 1 and he's keeping it up a little too much to be just trying to distance/bus his scum partner, so I guess he's either onto something or he's scum trying to get rid of the most dangerous townfolk.

Either way I'm pretty sure that this is too big to just be some sort of clever, over the top ruse from the two of them as scum partners in order to clear at least one of the two, and since we're in MyLo I assure you I don't want to flip a coin to choose which one of the two I'm willing to hang.

I guess I'll just hang you, since the PoE points you out as scum.

Note that he had already voted for WitchHunt. He posted that, then WitchHunt made his JOAT claim.

In fact, Red was the first vote on WitchHunt's wagon.

Bussing is a useful tactic, but the scum team was not in any danger there. Why start a bus wagon? A scum role blocker / role cop strikes me as far more valuable than extra town cred for Red.

Then he gets on Stardust for his flippy-floppy reaction to my doc/cop typo. Perhaps Red didn't see it, because I certainly didn't either.

Oh damn, that's when you just say, "No, I don't think we'll get much info from that." I was hoping your role might be a piece to a puzzle when I asked that, but I now believe that WitchHunt is caught scum so I will not be claiming until tomorrow.

Can you explain me this, please?
I mean, I don't really care if you claim or not, just explain why you suddenly go from "let's claim!" to "no, this is suddenly complicated!"

Then we lynch WitchHunt, open D4 over raspy's dead body, and it gets really weird.

vote rednihilist

I have town results on ham and dusty.

Game over.

Vote rezombad

Thanks for cutting this game short, at least I don't have to ISO you and Stardust.

Rezombad's post makes sense, but Red's makes no sense to me here.

If Red is a VT, why does he automatically jump to a rez vote?

From his POV:

1. He is town
2. He assumes ham is town
3. He thinks rez has faked the cop results

Rez's cop results are "ham = town, Stardust = town".

If he considered the possibility of a scum Godfather, he should suspect Stardust instead of rez. Remember that Red has stated ham = town all game, so rez's cop result on me should be no shocker. The only thing to take exception to is the "Stardust = town" result, which he must not believe. Otherwise he has no reason to find rez's results scummy, and I don't see why he doesn't vote Stardust.

If I can resolve the Red/rez debacle, I believe we'll find our last scum member and be done with this game.

I'm having trouble with that reasoning, Red.

From your POV, I see the following assumptions at the start of D4:

1. Ham is town (you've stated this several times)
2. You are town
3. Rez's results are invalid

To assume that rez's results are invalid, there must be something wrong with the statement "ham is town, Stardust is town".

Since you assume ham is town, your only point of contention that I can see is "Stardust is town".

If you don't believe that Stardust is town, why vote rez? Why not vote Stardust?

I finished my RedNihilist read, but want to get some info before posting it.

@Red: At the start of D4, why did you immediately vote for rez?

Dat slip tho

Yeah, I thought about the sudden reversal while I was driving to work.

The decision to cop me D2 was questionable as well. Even Red thought as much -

We needed a cop to tell us that ham was town.
This game is truly stellar.

I have Red's ISO open in a second tab, and the only remarkable thing is how unremarkable it is before today. The only notable thing I notice is his response to DK's D1 neutral claim -

Unvote
This game is about catching scum, not about catching neutrals.

I'm off to office, I'll post more in an hour.

Your flavour doesn't make sense for a survivor. What if your girl died before the game ended?

Your actions don't make sense for a survivor. What do you gain by drawing attention to yourself? How do you achieve your wincon after we "pry your claim from your PM"?

May I ask you what's the point of all this?

Explanaining myself: I'm doubtful of his claim as well, but we can either:
- believe him, and hunt scum, and probably still end up hanging him later;
- don't believe him -> hang him now.

Assuming that he isn't town (it wouldn't make any sense), he can either flip scum or neutral, and in both cases we're left with two mafia players left to hang.

Care to explain me why we should start by hanging him rather than looking somewhere else before that?

His interaction today with rez is very interesting, and I'm going to read through the whole thing a few times.

Scum have a roleblocker/rolecop and a role that can't be killed and their kill can't be prevented...

Wait a minute, that can't be right. hammy survived the kill Night 1. Then they dodged my protect two nights in a row? How does that make sense?

2-shot unblockable kill? Unblockable kill that's unlocked on Night 2 or some other way?

hammy, does your role indicate that it's special in any way?

No. The first time I'm targeted with a kill, it will not have an effect. Beyond that, I have no special abilities.

Despite all good mafia theory telling me not to make choices based on flavor, I'm going to because this game is special.

This game has been very flavorful, and all the roles have aligned strongly with their characters on the show.

• The Vengeful Opie following his wife's death
• Tig's loyalty & recklessness coinciding with his Bomb + Bodyguard ability. I have no idea why he talked like a dog the whole time
• Jax having a Vig shot (he shot Cohn in season 1)
• My character (Clay) having a 1-shot bulletproof vest. He's shot by a rival gang in a S1 shootout, but survives.
• Cohn being a Neutral investigative (stalker) role plus SK. He was obsessed with Tara and came to Charming to find her, then dug into SAMCRO when he found out Tara was fucking Jax Teller.
• Tara being a doctor
• Wayne being a survivor cop (his character has cancer, and was a cop during S1 before retiring)

Anyway, the flavor is strong with this one.

I suspect that Stardust is telling the truth about his role as Tara, because on day 1 he begins grilling DK about his role, specifically mentioning the girl he's obsessed with.

hammy (or someone else), who would the ATF agent's girl be? In the show, I mean.

Dechs' description of his role sounds more like a hitman than a survivor.

You target someone at night (trying to find your girlfriend, in this case). When you target the correct person, typically they die and you leave the game. In this case, maybe you just carry her away flavour-wise, but either way, we lose a townie.

Your flavour doesn't make sense for a survivor. What if your girl died before the game ended?

Your actions don't make sense for a survivor. What do you gain by drawing attention to yourself? How do you achieve your wincon after we "pry your claim from your PM"?

Clearly Stardust is looking out for his own ass here, which is how I'd expect someone who was Tara to play.

Then on day 2, during WitchHunt's JOAT claim SNAFU, he hints that he's a doctor.

Oh, actually, WitchHunt is lying. 100%. I won't explain why I know that, but it's true.

I'll vote him in a bit. Maybe he'll get modkilled for us, and I do want to read Red and rezmo before we end the Day.

Then he becomes wary after I typo "doc".

Depending on what WitchHunt says about his doc ability, I'll claim today to disprove or verify him.

Huh. This might be more complicated than I realise...

We figured that silliness out today. You can read the "Y U NO" exchange to see what happened there.

I don't know if Stardust is a townie, but I believe he's a doctor.

-------------------------------------------------------

OK! Moving on to rezombad.

Rezombad claims that he investigated, in this order -

Night 1 Jamie town
Night 2 hamfactorial town
Night 3 stardust town

He hasn't voted for many people. He voted for DK on D1, then voted for Stardust on D2 until WitchHunt botched the JOAT claim, counter-claimed him on the cop aspect, then stayed there. He immediately voted for RedNihilist, declaring Stardust town. The sudden reversal is consistent with a player with an investigative role.

He claims to have investigated me on D2 after my bulletproof vest went POOF. He discusses his reasoning here -

But I'm pretty sure it's stardust+witchhunt at this point.

Last night I copped hamfactorial (I couldnt get past the idea that some kind of gambit involving using the mafia night kill on himself night one in order to get rid of his vest and get ez town creds. That and his use of those angry face smilies made me want to check him.) and he is town.

Night 1 I copped Jamie because of my day1 votecount analysis had him looking suspicious. That's why I was so adamant about him being town on day2.

-----

k game solved. gg.

pedit: yes. i already caught witch lying his fucking face off.

he is scum

he could be a scum joat

if he is a scum joat, he may have a role cop (since they know who is town [sans SK i suppose])

if he has a role cop, he doesnt get regular cop results (town/not-town)

Now we find out that he's a neutral cop survivor.

I don't know if he's a neutral, or a survivor, but I believe that he's a cop.

-------------------------------------------------------

I haven't finished ISOing RedNihilist yet, so I'll tack his portion onto this post. I see activity in the thread, so I'm pausing this one.

I'll make my vote tomorrow morning after I've thought about it a bit.

I can't. Just thinking out loud, hence why I asked if Red had claimed a PR.

I found a Godfather variant on the wiki called Tough Guy, which makes the player unkillable at night.

It's a lot of power in one place, but in a 2 scum game with an SK and town vig, it seems fair.

Did Red ever claim his abilities? I only see flavor.

I'm ready to vote Red, but my paranoia wants to entertain the possibility of Stardust being scum with a passive ability to return fake results to cops. It's an alternative explanation for his doc ability failing twice and rez getting a town result.

I guess there's no way of knowing, so it comes down to a weighted coin flip.

Oh, that looks dumb. Yeah, that's a typo, I was only taking issue with his cop claim. I didn't realize I had messed up the role on day 3. I thought it was odd that you suddenly became confused after I said that. I was talking about cops, you were thinking about the possibility of 3 doc claims.

When you mentioned typo, I thought you meant my Y U NO joke, since I said "doc" in there.

get Madding in here to tell me I blew it.

What about your question didn't I answer? I'll try again if you're not satisfied.

I was using the Y U NO guy for funsies. The only typo I've made has been "1-shit".

I was going to say exactly what I said above, regarding his weird cop results. Then he gave up so I voted him.

You had a similar experience, so I think you'll understand why I was asking WH for more info until he checked out and gave up.

Rez behaved similarly when WH's cop claim didn't jive with his results.

I'm not a Miller, I'm town and I had 1-shot bulletproof. Not too complicated.

If one was paranoid (and I am) I'd wonder why two people you claimed to target (raspy, rianalnn) ended up dead the next morning. Y U NO SAVE THEM, doc?

I figured your hesitation was something like that. I re-read day 3 and saw that WH's claim triggered both you and rez. I wanted to confirm that you were taking issue with his wording of the doc claim without revealing yourself as the doctor.

His "not guilty of the murder" result on me threw his claim into doubt. I said before that I can't reveal some information from my role PM (under penalty of modkill), but I can say that it contradicts his faked result on me.

I didn't commit the murder, but I'm not innocent.

Stardust:

What did you not want to reveal on day 3 following WitchHunt's JOAT claim?

Rez:

Who have you investigated, and on what nights?

Stardust:

Who did you protect night 1?

Oh, I misread that. You were chatting with imopen, not rez.

I did a read-through of the posts since start of day and I'm fairly confused by the whole thing. Some of it stems from trying to read at work.

@ Stardust, why are you able to chat with rezombad at night?

LOL, just noticed I said 1-shit.

Anyway, I've been role-playing all game, calling everyone son and being arrogant, like my character on the show.