Dies to Removal

A lot of fun. I should have been more assertive, was on to imopen early and Iso late - the latter of which I didn't even expand upon. Fun game all, GG.

Oh, and HUGE props to Stardust for the excellent setup and flavor. Really made every point extra fun.

any final words, Ham? T/S list? Who you think we should go after in the incredibly unlikely event that you're town? Things that have raised your eyebrows?

wow that was quick.

If imopen doesn't post is analysis by tomorrow, then we should proceed with the lynch on Pie. This Day is as stale as rcw's vote on Iso.

like that?

Sorry, Zem. I meant to say rcw there.

@RCW:
Why should we not be voting Pie?

Pretty much exactly what I said in my post above yours. I think that Wraith's meta make his actions before replacement seem like frustrated noob town that wanted to do things his own way. And I don't think Pie has done quite enough to either confirm or deny that read.

I'm not thoroughly convinced of it, but I also believe it well enough to not vote him. If you think he's clearly the best scum target, then go ahead and vote him. I'm not going to try to talk you out of it anymore. I already posted my analysis of his first wagon and my breakdown of his PR claims alongside the Mafia Wiki definition. And further up this page I quoted him
saying he actually HAS done some research, which nullifies arguments against that.

If that's not enough for anybody else to pull their votes, that's fine. But it also means that if he flips town we're analyzing the hell out of this wagon because there will likely be 2-3 scum on it.

I'm not willing to be the hammer on this one. I thought Wraith was noob, wanna-do-it-my-own-way, flavor gaming, frustrated town. And Pie hasn't given me a reason to change that read.

Ah, that's right, Wraith went over the deep end flavor gaming. Then I took my vote off him because I thought he was being genuine. And I defended the rolestopper/roleblocker mixup in his claim(s).

The biggest hole that people came up with for what I said about the Mafia Wiki definition is that Wraith never looked it up. To which I say:

As has been explained to you multiple times in the game, a day cop doesn't have the ability to kill another player. And unlike everyone else, you don't seem to realize it was a joke referring to another game.

You're fucking dense.

I just looked it up more indepth. Damn it. Why did you say that anyway?

He ended up looking stuff up. So are we so certain just based on this?

what are people seeing that I'm not with Pie? I isolated his posts and he OMGUS'd me and was pretty lurky, but nothing that I could see put it over the top.

why voting Pie? Lurkiness?

Its null imo, It could be a town ability (Most protection roles are) but it could be a scum ability and he attempts to gambit it by doing it night one and gaining cred.

Its a null for that reason and I don't think this calls for iso claiming anything because he isn't scummy at this point and giving more info to the mafia is bad.

I need to noodle this over. Very interesting lines of thought. I don't necessarily disagree, I just want to think through possibilities.

It's possible that's a red herring, though, since there are likely many possibilities.

you
know what? nvm.

Trying to figure out a NK is just a bunch of WIFOM anyway. Let's just work with what we have. I find it curious, though, that WitchHunt was the only one not voting yesterday.

Imopen2, you hammered and said the game was dragging. Were you convinced of Suga's scumminess or did you just want to get it over with?

Its null imo, It could be a town ability (Most protection roles are) but it could be a scum ability and he attempts to gambit it by doing it night one and gaining cred.

Its a null for that reason and I don't think this calls for iso claiming anything because he isn't scummy at this point and giving more info to the mafia is bad.

I need to noodle this over. Very interesting lines of thought. I don't necessarily disagree, I just want to think through possibilities.

It's possible that's a red herring, though, since there are likely many possibilities.

and Suga, what specifically did you see in Z that raised your concerns on him?

Pie, it probably makes sense for you to explain why the lie detector claim can ever possibly be trusted before we get the flip.

btw, I'm town and rcw's scum.

At least half of this is wrong.

Hint: It's the half about me.

You think I'm scum for voting for Suga for the same reason 5 other people are voting for him?

I took my vote off him once he first claimed because I didn't know what to make of that claim. But then I realized how completely irrelevant that role is. Yeah, "if he's scum then he'll be scummy" is part of it, but the part that you're missing is that there's no way for us to know if he's scum or not. So there's no reason for us to trust his lie detector result. Which renders it completely useless, and I'm voting him because of his scummy posting.

If we knew we had a cop who could validate him, that'd be different. But
now's not the time for anybody else to out their PRs.

Everytime I play with Suga it ends up like this.
Let me read things.

Tell us more.

I usually hate it when someone answers for someone else, but I'll just say a couple things about this.

1. In each game I've been in where Suga was town and lynched early (don't remember quantity, could have just been 1), he raged like he's doing now, called players on his wagon idiots, and gave specific names of who to look into.

2. Suga knows he's done this, so it really isn't a meta town tell.

DON'T LYNCH A FUCKING LIE DETECTOR CLAIM HOOOOLY SHIT

tell me why?

Also, CM is probably scum because:

Actually... this could be interesting

If the ability is real (and he happens to be town, it could be a scum ability) we could always force a scummy player to post "I am a townie" and then we have a cop of sorts.

Droppin just has done nothing and doing nothing at almost 445 posts is bad.

This game has too much lurking and unactive players at the moment

This post
is fucking bad.

'lets not lynch the biggest suspect so we can have a 'cop of sorts' if everyone posts I am town.'

The mafia already know who the town are.

I'm aware of that, it just might have been a good idea to lynch someone else scummy and see what the mafia do. You do realize I never unvoted because I was still sure he was scum?

Iso's post has enlightened me to be happy with a ham lynch, Droppin or ham today will do fine.

Ok, I get it.

"Can only do at night" is a convenient way to not get lynched

Scum know who town is, so it'll be easy for him to pick a townie and say "this person's telling the truth!" at which point that person will say "by gollie, yes I am" and then scum get a convenient kill the next night.

I initially unvoted Suga because I didn't know what to make of the claim. Now I know what
to make of it.

vote: DroppinSuga

Suga, why did you claim at L-3 (that was my count) and before anybody asked you to do so? I asked for specific info, not necessarily a claim.

The best thing we could do is to have everyone post "I am Town" and have suga choose who to investigate. I'll start (I guess CM kinda already started)

I am town

That requires Suga to be alive during the night, so not the lynch target. Aren't you still voting him?

I am town.

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

Try and find some content or real scum hunting in his posts

I couldn't find anything worthwhile, but you seemed to see something else that wasn't apparent to me.

Vote DroppinSuga

Why do you feel comfortable putting
him to L-2 if you can't find anything worth voting him for on you own?

I'm actually ok with a lynch on rcw, I haven't liked his play in this game but I wasn't sure if it was me being jaded from DTR.

I think we've got 4 votes on you now Suga. Can you tell us exactly what you haven't liked about my play this game? You should probably also respond to Zem's post summarizing your play and Murphy's quotes of you.

Hmm, somehow I missed that bit at the end of suga's post about how he was scum.

Unvote

Vote: Suga

Where is the damning part of his last post? I don't see him saying he's scum, only that he's comfortable with lynching raspy. I ISO'd him and found that he's mostly posted some early game chaff, posted in solidarity with Wraith/Pie at L-1, and then sheeped Z w/r/t raspy.

holy shit unvote, vote droppin

Again, what are you seeing that I'm not?

Suga's ISO link for the curious.

It's because of how quickly he jumped on the idea of lynching me right after Z and I mildly went at it and Z voted me. I read Z's vote primarily as a vote to gauge my reaction and see if anybody else would react, and I read Suga as falling for that bait.

Also, Murphy's quotes of Suga show him saying "honestly" a lot, which I was told in a previous game is a slight scum tell. Might not be a big deal, but worth mentioning.

unvote

vote: DroppinSuga

I still think imopen2 could be scum, but I don't see that wagon moving and if we get a lynch the flip will tell us some
things.

RE raspy: I actually considered him leaning town before his stunt in putting Wraith at L-1, even though I can believe his motives.

That wasn't a stunt. I legitimately voted Wraith thinking he was the best scum target at the time, and I knew I put him at L-1. Then I had doubts and imopen2 caught my attention with some scummy posts.

The whole thing about analyzing Wraith's wagon was just something that dawned on me later. Putting him at L-1 wasn't intended to bring that about, if that's what you're referring to.

Here you go (Post 148):

What the hell my laptop keeps skipping typing and stupid auto correcting words.

I just said earlier that my ability is Rolestopper. My spear stops night kills. What else do you want?

Rest when I have a bit more time later today.

From the Mafia Wiki. This is the entire write-up of town roleblocker (emphasis mine). Please let me know how what Wraith said differs from the very first sentence, except that Wraith added flavor to it.

Town
Generally, Roleblockers
are intended to try to stop the Night-kill, or stop scum power roles in situations where they are known. In practice, Roleblockers are more likely to stop Town power roles from working early on, but as the game goes on Roleblockers become much more powerful. In particular, when there is one Mafioso left Roleblockers can be used to confirm players - if the Mafia's kill goes through, whoever was blocked that Night isn't the last Mafioso. Inversely, if a Roleblocker blocks someone and the Mafia's kill disappears, there is a decent chance that the Roleblocker blocked the scum who was performing the kill (though this is not necessarily the case, given that other power roles may have had a hand in it, or the scum decided to not kill anyone as a framing gambit). In summary, Town Roleblockers are almost liabilities early on but become much stronger if they survive to lategame, so they have net positive value for Town.

Why are you asking questions I've already answered?

More than one person's been caught answering the same question different ways before. It's always possible again. It's fine if you don't have a read on me, but it does strike me as odd since my experience with you so far is that you develop reads very quickly. So it was worth questioning. It certainly doesn't mean you HAVE to develop quick reads. Just that it's been my observation.

- you're basically asking me to clear you. Sure, it reads as if you're irrelevant which way I go, but it doesn't serve Town to distract me from hunting actual Scum if you're Town; I've not seen you adopt a mindset of forming a Town voting block via POE previously, though it did
come up in our last game I suppose; but even then right now it wouldn't be effective, so any such effort is extremelt forced.

Not asking you to clear me at all. Sure, being cleared sounds nice I suppose, but that's also night kill bait right there. No thanks. I'm not trying to distract you from hunting scum. I'm trying to clear YOU! Not sure why that's forced during a stall in which we're the only ones posting.

- you've also basically suggested that I should be confident in reading you (this in a game where you're acting pretty Townish previously); so any read I should give is 'Town'. When I explain reasons why I'm unwilling to make a read, you've basically tried to boost my confidence "you were totally right on day 1, believe in yourself!" To get me to do so. I can't see a Town motivation for doing this. If you're Town, you don't care what conclusions I reach, only that I show a Town-mibdset in my analytical process; that's sufficient for
you to start narrowing your field of suspects. Instead your concern seems very much to be with getting clear.

It's an attempt to tease information from you so I can develop my own read on you. You mentioned something about me, I asked you about it to get down to YOUR thought process, not to try to clear myself.

- there's no reason to force engagement with me. We've got multiple posters who've promised content soon and I've already expressed an interest with dislike for rednihilist and Hamfactorial. Getting me to make substantive assessment of you is just a distraction. For reasons, explained, that doesn't serve Town.

If it doesn't serve town, how does it serve scum? How does giving people more to read on BOTH of us not serve town? Sure, others have promised content, but where is it? Should we just sit idle until it comes out (if it ever does)?

- trying to make it seem like we successfully caught you in DTR is just bullshit. In
that game you told us at the time you were being scummy to fish for info, to exploit your unlynchable miller role to Town advantage. We were never going to put you on unlynchable godfather, so it's an entirely easy situation for you to exploit there; and you're trying to exploit it now by telling me you're easy to read! What the hell? Thing is, you'd have known in DTR that the lunch would fail and that we'd 99% believe your fake claim, so you could afford to act ultra scummy Day 1 to get Town-cred and then mislead us.

Aside. I have nfi what Suga was thinking.

Me telling you in DTR Mafia that I was purposefully acting scummy was the lie. I wasn't trying to act scummy. You caught me, got me to claim, and lynched me. Then I said I did it all on purpose as a cover up. Sure, easy position for me given how things ended up, but that's not the point. And again, I'm not trying to tell you I'm easy to read. This is what I'm saying:
1. I've observed that Zem develops reads quickly
n2. I've posted a lot
3. Zem hasn't developed a read on me yet
4. I wonder why that is

Making a meta read on me when I've been day killed on Day 1 as Town by two Town scrubs for asking too many questions is kinda funny. It's like you're telling me how I ought to play.

Why the hell would I tell anybody how to play? That seems like a huge stretch.

RE: Wraith; your logic for defending him seemed incredibly flawed if we don't assume that he's just awful. Getting the role name wrong is awkward, but he didn't state the correct ability; that he doesn't research and basically claimed the only PR he'd seen in his last came are cause for immense suspicion. On balance, I'm concluding that yeah, he's just awful; but the way you made a defence seemed wilfully ignorant or at least dismissive of Wraith as a person and what you would know about him from the last game. It doesn't sit well with me.

I've specifically tried to avoid saying
anything about Wraith on a personal level. I don't know him at all, and he seems like a good guy from the clan thread. Since I'm obviously not seeing the same thing the rest of you are, can you highlight for me (via quote would prob be easiest) where he stated the wrong ability? I didn't see that at all. What I saw was the same thing stated in 2 different ways, both of which could have been taken almost directly from the Mafia Scum wiki's definition of town roleblocker.

This is what you want right?

Vote rcwraspy

Not what I was after, but whatevs.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm not re-reading my posts asking myself "does this sound town" or "what's the town mindset here?" It seems like that's what you're expecting from every post. I'm just posting what I'm thinking as I'm thinking it, and trying to work with what I've got. Right now all I've got is 11 pages and 1 other active user.

users browsing this forum: rcwraspy, zemanjaski, and 2 guests.

Hop on in! The water's fine!

You also didn't understand our concern about Wraith's incredibly erroneous role claim so I'm not sure what to tell you. Your last few posts are aimed at clearing you, not finding scum. They don't express a Town mindset at all. I had mentioned liking your posts previously so I don't know why all of a sudden you're concerned what I think of you; you've not really attracted any heat thus far - the reasons I can think of for you taking this line are all scummy.

It's an effort to engage you in a conversation since we're the only two people posting, and get a little more content. I don't have anybody cleared as town yet and I'd like to get at least 1 person on my conf town list before night 1.

Additionally, your comment about not
reading me just didn't sound right for how the game has evolved. Your meta shows that you develop quick reads on people - almost snap judgments - and you hammer them until they're either cleared, lynched, or you're killed somehow. Not developing a read on the person who has given arguably the most content so far seems like a pretty big fence sit for you. Why are you holding back on it?

RE: Wraith's claim. Did people not understand where I was coming from with Wraith's role claim? I obviously don't know what he was looking at, but reading the town based roleblocker in the wiki, both of his "claims" sound like they could be pointing to that. It just seemed to me like Wraith didn't realize how nit-picky role claims are and he paraphrased.

And knowing you we're unlynchable, it's very easy to manoeuvre us into that line of thinking. What's the pint if your last post? It seems very much like you're trying to court my suspicion.

Not trying to court anything. It just doesn't make sense to me why I'd be harder to read than somebody else, especially since I've been one of the more active posters.

Like I already said, the nature if your ridiculous role in DTR mafia has meant it's very difficult for me to have any confidence in my reads on you. You can thank Suga for that.

you all had me pegged day 1 in that game and lynched me. I just lied and spun it as a gambit due to my role, and came up with a decent towny-ish post to sell it. But you read me correctly at first.

I've posted on raspy, ill have a re-look at imopen; it's my third game with him after all. He's more Townish than DTR mafia he was scum; that's clear to me.

I think this is our third game together too. You posted that I'm tricky to figure out. Why?

rez town
Red town
Suga null
Witch town
Tube null
Ham null
Iso town
Void null
z town

page 1 reads that I will not be elaborating on. woo-hoo.

I kind of want to stop there tbh.

At L-2 it would probably behoove you to at least skim the rest of the thread. Wraith's posts put you in a hole you'll need to climb out of.

Sorry ignore that thank - on tablet and finger slipped.

3.5 HOURS WOW EDGY

Care to expand on this?

Do you feel that is indicative of something?

No, not really. I think he was just very frustrated and we were all telling him that his approach was wrong, and basically saying "L2P" the whole thread. I can imagine that's grating to someone who said they want to figure it all out on their own, regardless of alignment.

I was ready to move on to someone else except for that nagging suspicion that town wouldn't sit at L-1 for 3.5 hours unless scum is already on the wagon. It's hard to believe all 3 scum (I'm assuming 3 this game) were on a 6-player day 1 wagon, but of course it's possible.

Really just interested in what Pie has to say - hopefully he finds some time.

I want to answer your question, but I don't quite understand it sorry; you can perhaps phrase it differently for me?

My bad.
What I wanted to ask you is: are you really sure it is ok for us to discuss too much Wraith's position before Pie's first posts?
I'd prefer him to focus on a fresh start rather than having him reading the whole thread through and realize he has got to gain everybody's trust or something like
that.
You know, I feel like he's got enough pressure on him, but I'd avoid forcing him some useless direction.

I hope I have been able to express myself a bit better this time.

I think it's important to remember that Pie is replacing into the same role. The slips made by Wraith are still indicative of alignment for Pie. If anytying they are more important now that Pie is replacing in; we won't get that sort of slip from the much stronger player.

Didn't Pie basically do the same thing in DTR Mafia? The equivalent of a ragequit?

we're all a bunch of cyber bullies.

Am I seriously the only one that lols at a drawn out claim to be told they are a role blocker?

Yes?

I think this is the first time Wraith has had to claim in a game of Mafia, and he's stated multiple times that he didn't look things up in the Wiki until recently. He's a unique case since he marches to the beat of his own drum in this game. That doesn't automatically make him scum.

You seem like you don't
care about unique circumstances and just want to get in a quick lynch. Why?

I don't care for meta.

Quick? Are we playing the same 280+ post day one game?

Why don't you care for meta? Do you not think it can tell you about someone? I'm not voting Wraith almost entirely based on meta.

The last game I played, day 1 lasted something like 19 pages. So yes, I think this is quick.

Wraith, you have got to be kidding me with more flavor-gaming. If you mention flavor-gaming one more time toDay, I will vote you as a policy lynch. You aren't helping us with this shit. Understand?

what do you think of the many non-flavor
related things he said in that post? Or are you just going to tunnel the flavor stuff?

anybody else see a possible Captain-Imopen-X scum team developing?

Straws are being grasped.

Nice deflection. I don't think straws are being grasped at all. So far I'm seeing you come in on a wagon to put Wraith at L-2 without any real analysis of why. Imopen "wanted" to hammer but didn't, and I see that as scum not wanting to be the hammer but still wanting to appear to like the wagon everybody else is on. Or not wanting to hammer a scum buddy. So I have scum reads on you, imopen, and Wraith, with imopen potentially being linked with either you or Wraith. Which leads to the next bit you quoted.

I'm tempted to vote Wraith right now because I don't believe town would stick around at L-1
for 3 and a half hours without being hammered.

That said, in my mind I've linked imopen on 2 potential scum teams - with Wraith and/or with Captain Murphy.

vote: imopen2

Wait

So you do think he is scum? And not only that, you would rather jump on a new wagon than actually help the only moving wagon? What?

I think Wraith could be scum, primarily because I don't think town survives being at L-1 for 3.5 hours unless scum is already on the wagon. But imopen2 is a stronger scum read to me right now. I had inklings of it earlier, voted him, and he came out with a decent response so I unvoted him. Then I took a look at Wraith's wagon, and I think imopen is scum again.

I'm tempted to vote Wraith right now because I don't believe town would stick around at L-1 for 3 and a half hours without being hammered.

That said, in my mind I've linked imopen on 2 potential scum teams - with Wraith and/or with Captain Murphy.

vote: imopen2