Dies to Removal

I'm on 4 YP$ also, but that's probably because I've had a lot of success with it. There are grixis delver lists without any YP$ and then there are also grixis delve lists without either YP$ or Delver. I feel the YP versions are better than the other 2, and the right number is either 3 or 4 but I lean toward 4. I'd shave a Snapcaster before a YP.

I do cut Probe fairly often also, mostly against decks where their cards are all fungible. Burn is a perfect example - every card does 3 dmg - but also because of the lifeloss in that matchup.

I'm really conservative with keeps. I mulligan maybe more than I should but would mull that. Unknown opponent you want to see a little interaction and 4 lands often leads to floods.

Congrats on the 4-0.

Glad to see a good delver list again. Will sleeve

huh. There are changes I'd make based on personal choices (like dropping down to 9 fetches to add a 3rd Darkslick Shore and turning Darkblast #2 into Abrupt Decay #4) but it's interesting that they landed on Pack Rat as creatures 9-X. Seems to have synergy with both Delve and 'Goyf and we all know how it can snowball if unanswered. I like going to 19 lands because of the Rat too. I think that's an interesting list.

This list day 2'd GP Madrid:

[deck]
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Creeping Tar Pit

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Mana Leak
1 Remand
4 Doom Blade
4 Treasure Cruise

Sideboard
2 Dimir Charm
2 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spellskite
2 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Threats of Disloyalty
[/deck]

Not a very big fan of some of the decisions, like no MD Abrupt Decay. I feel that card is reason number 1 to play BUG colors. The 4 MD Doom Blade are the replacement, and they're very risk/reward susceptible. For instance Siege Rhino is gaining ground in Modern (then again Decay can't hit it either). I also want something uncounterable if I'm killing flipped delvers and swiftspears.

Hrm, if Delver and goyf are creatures 1-8 and we have a hard time pinning down 9-12, what about bitterblossom?

Countersquall actually seems very powerful.

If the mana base starts with 2-4 darkslick shores then it has potential.

This is the spell package I initially considered:

4x abrupt decay
1x countersquall
3x disfigure
1x golgari charm
2x mana leak
4x remand
4x serum visions
1x spell Pierce
2x spell Snare
2x thought scour
4x treasure cruise

Maybe discard is just stronger than that much permission. Also counter squall is probably bad but wanted to see for sure.

Funny, I was talking about this yesterday with DXI-Edge. I came up with Ooze plus Clique (20 land). Dark Blast and a small amount of discard are good too; I looked at Dimir Charm and Sultai Charm also.

Losing bolt is a big loss, and you're weaker to Burn also.

It's an idea worth exploring IMHO.

Good to know. I had assumed 20 land also. I may value disfigure over darkblast main since it's easier and broader, though dredge plus delve is nice. Good call on ooze - hadn't considered it.

Thoughts on a bug variant? Tarmogoyf and abrupt decay both seem silly strong right now. Having issues nailing down creatures 8-12 though. Tombstalker is good but having 6+ delve spells is a bit much alongside goyf. V-clique also good but don't want more than 2.

Snapcaster is another option of course but I feel his value diminishes if you don't have bolt.

Edit: golgari charm strong now too.

Make a starting hand with your favorite 6 spells and reef as your only land. Randomize rest of deck and see what happens. I bet it's not good.

heh. Two varying opinions on it, it seems. Well, I'd say that it largely depends on how optimal you need the list to be, and whether you can wait for Tarn to be reprinted. It's possible the ZEN fetches get a reprint in the 3rd set of Khans block.

How crucial is Scalding Tarn? Ive realized I can basically make this deck, I have all the other fetches, except scalding tarns....

Probably your most important land to be honest. There are builds without fetches but that lowers the value in Treasure Cruise. The fact you get Steam Vents, Island, OR Mountain is, as obvious as it may sound, crucial. There are times where you just fetch for basics, and Misty can't help you cast your red spells.

For instance, you have a tapped Steam Vents, an island, and a fetch on the battlefield. Opponent plays a threat you can bolt, and you have bolt in your hand. I'd much rather take 1 at his EOT to bolt at EOT than take 3 to do it, or than having to wait until my turn.

You keep some number of Remand in to counter Treasure Cruise.

I don't know if I'm right or not, but this isn't my take on it.

My thought is that our answer to the opponent's Treasure Cruise is our own Treasure Cruise. When Remand is only good for a "gotcha" moment against 4 cards, and bad against the other 56 cards, it's too much of a liability for me. That said, if you expect your opponent to bring in heavier spells like Keranos or Batterskull from the board then Remand gets a little better.

Today (before losing to Auras), I lost the mirror against the vapor snag - monastery swiftspear - treasure cruise version.

I feel like I might have misinterpreted my role in the matchup and/ or mis-sideboarded. Would like to get some feedback.

I felt like soft counters like Leak and Pierce were terribad, and keeping 4 Remands in against a deck with 0-1 Snapcasters (even if remanding cruise is good) was probably too much.

I always had a really hard time killing swiftspear through multiple burn spells or vapor snags... I pointed my burn spells at Swiftspear during either my opponent's EOT if he didn't play any sorcery, or my own turn: is it correct?

I also wasn't sure about Dispel or Negate. Negate seems extremely good against Cruise and extremely mediocre against anything else. Same for Snare, perfect against Pyro, horribad if the opponent has no Pyro.


Sorry for the maybe "stupid" post.


[deck]
4 Delver of secrets
4 young pyromancer
4 snapcaster mage
4 Serum Visions
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Burst Lightning
2 Electrolyze
3 Dig Through Time
5 Island
1 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Dispel
1 Negate
2 Blood Moon
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Hibernation
1 Batterskull
2 Combust
1 Electrickery
3 Magma Spray
1 Shatterstorm[/deck]

So what was your board plan?

Against the swiftspear version you're definitely the "control" deck (for "who's the beatdown?" purposes), but that doesn't mean you don't need pressure. And feel free to audible to aggro if you have the right opener for it.

Against mirror and other small creature decks I block very aggressively if I know I'm in the control role. It's ok to treat your creatures like 1 and 2 mana delayed removal spells if you need to. Of course, blocking a Prowess creature is tricky. Game 1 Probe is great to know how to handle it, but I'd likely board out Probe and Remand. They do quick damage so Probe for 2 life gets bad and their spells are so cheap that Remanding them back to hand often results in no tempo loss. Looking at your sideboard I'd start with a swap of those 8 cards for your 2 Dispel, Negate, 3 Magma Spray, Electrickery, and Batterskull.

can you edit that post to include your list? Full 75, please.

RUG Delver takes down GP Madrid. Here's the list:

[deck]
Creature (12)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Delver of Secrets

Sorcery (15)
2 Forked Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Serum Visions

Instant (14)
1 Electrolyze
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Remand
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Thought Scour
2 Vapor Snag

Land (19)
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Island

Sideboard (15)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dragon's Claw
1 Hibernation
1 Destructive Revelry
2 Negate
1 Dispel
2 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Electrickery
3 Molten Rain
[/deck]

SB seems fairly straightforward. The spice there is the Destructive Revelry. MD it's hard to argue with a GP winning list but personally I don't like the 2nd Pierce or the Thought Scour. Either of them or both could become more Remand for me.

Currently running this:

[deck]
Creatures - 12
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Young Pyromancer

Sorceries - 13
2 Pillar of Flame
4 Serum Visions
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Treasure Cruise

Instants - 17
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
1 Spell Pierce
2 Electrolyze
2 Spell Snare
2 Vapor Snag

Land - 18
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Steam Vents
1 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Island

Sideboard - 15
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Spell Snare
1 Flame Slash
1 Combust
1 Hibernation
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Vandalblast
2 Counterflux
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Batterskull
1 Spellskite
2 Negate
[/deck]

Haven't had any events to take it to, barring Tuesday night Magic at the shop, where I've elected to play Vintage instead. But me and 5 other decent players had a bit of a gauntlet yesterday and it performed really well. I probably need to shore up the Affinity matchup a bit more, since that's still a thing in my meta. As such, I think a Grim becomes a Shatterstorm. Also want to fit in a Blood Moon, so I'll probably replace either Hibernation or the extra Spell Snare. The one-of Clique has been really good and I may actually slot it into the main as the 13th creature, replacing either a Pillar or an Electrolyze. Alternatively I can easily see keeping 12 creatures and dropping to 3 Snapcaster. Also want to test the 3 Cruise but add 1 Dig.

EDIT: I've been playing so much vintage that I wrote "Mana Drain" instead of "Mana Leak." BIG difference

Like we've collectively discussed, sideboards should reflect your meta; I don't think mine is exemplary of anything.

Agreed. I just don't like threads so was wondering if thought on its inclusion has changed. I don't run it either way.

With bg's decline thanks to treasure cruise and dig, is it time to drop the threads of disloyalty? How often are they coming in now?

Engineered Explosives is good too.

good point. For some reason I only ever think of ee if I'm in 3+ colours.

Looks good Z in my local meta I'm always playing against bogles so I'm probably adding spellskites do y'all have any
other suggestions for the matchup or is that good enough without taking up too much SB space

Others don't like it but if Bogles is big in your meta I like Hibernation.

Why so many Magma Spray?

great against burn, affinity, the mirror, pod, and random tier 1.5/2 decks you may see. Like Soul Sisters or something. I assume with Dig/Cruise Zem feels like the deck can beat an attrition/midrange/control matchup so he's shoring up the aggro match that can steal a win before our engines get going.

zem what were your conclusions on Sygg?

I like the card a lot, but in this list it seems win-more. We're not putting out bursts of damage until after we've turned the corner, at which point we're already winning. Like I said, I like it a lot in a more aggressive deck where even without a T1 Delver your plan is still getting in the red zone early and often.

Yeah I was thinking it might be a good 1-of in the board for said matchups (in the electrickery spot).

I don't hate that. Gives more game than electrickery against people who land 1 threat and protect. Likely worse against a spammed board.

Are you thinking of flame javelin raspy?

No, jab. 1dmg for Red isn't a great return to start with and if you want it doing more you're effectively spending 2 and saccing one you spent for it. Like if shard volley was 2cmc, sac a land, deal 1.

I also think it matches up poorly. You'd want that effect early but we want to hit our first 3-4 land drops.

Maybe 1 of in the board for mirror and Affinity but I don't really see it in other matchups.

Flame Jab?

Sygg, Rivercuthroat?

I like sygg but I think he belongs in a list with larger creature density. I think we're a little too reactionary for him.

Flame jab seems very expensive but may be Ok as a 1 of test card?

The problem with going white for Helix is that the life you gain from it is offset by the pain you take from getting more shocklands untapped. If you want to splash white, Helix should be the last reason why. For the Swiftspear builds, I could see an argument for a white splash to play Path and Gods Willing (or similar) as well as Wear / Tear out of the board. You just wouldn't run soft counters due to the Path nonbo.

If you're NOT playing the Swiftspear build, I'd start a URw build with 4x Seachrome Coast. This greatly reduces the pain taken from fetching for colors.

Jihad was a fun game.

Agree on all points. I just know that whenever I break out my UR Delver deck I get asked why I'm playing YP over SSS. Thought it might be worth a quick mention, but obviously it's your call.

Personally I agree that YP is an auto-include, but some people still insist on running the Hoogland Spellstutter Sprite Delver list. Maybe mention it briefly and why you choose the YP version over it?

I had typed out a similar argument but realized we all know the benefits and drawbacks of playing Hibernation in the 75. If I were to guess I'd say Zem isn't fond of it because he'd be lowering his percentages against the tier one decks at the expense of a fringe deck. If Boggles actually ended up being a 10% representation of the meta that could change his mind though. As it is there are a lot better cards to be playing against Ascendancy, Pod, and Goyf decks than Hibernation so that's really not a good enough excuse.

I certainly am not advocating dedicating slots against Boggles unless it's disproportionately represented in one's meta. Just saying that Hibernation has already seen space in some boards, mine included at times, for other matchups and is a reasonable card against Boggles should you happen to see them. But you're probably right that there are better pieces for those slots.

SB needs work. I think I've been really undervaluing Counterflux.

I do think that I over-commit to pet cards a bit, but I run 2 counterflux in my Delver board. I definitely want to see it in some matchups and the UWR matchup goes long enough that having 2 doesn't hurt. I also have a slot that rotates between Dispel and Negate. Obviously Dispel being superior in counter wars but Negate can hit a broader range of things, like Scapeshift and Splinter Twin and walkers.

So for me that's typically 3 counterspell slots, followed by 3 artifact slots, 1 to 2 bullets against small creatures, and 2 to 3 midrange slots. Then fill in the rest.

Hibernation is already a sb consideration for Pod and goyf decks. It hits Boggles fairly well also if that's a represented deck in someone's meta. Also decent though a tad slow against this new Jeskai combo deck.

LETS DISCUSS COUNTERSPELLS!

- Mana Leak
- Remand
- Spell Pierce
- Spell Snare

How many do you like and why?

Spell Snare
I like to have 4 in my 75 for this deck. Maybe it's a crutch, but it lines up so well against Burn, Affinity, BGx, and Merfolk (they don't always have Vial and it still has targets when they do) so it increases our percentage points against those decks and it's still pertinent in other matchups. I usually have 3 main and 1 side.

Spell Pierce
For some reason I've never been a big fan of this card. I often feel like I'm just using it in situations where it's not optimal but I don't feel it will have a use elsewhere so why not use it so it's not a dead card. If it were something else it could feel better, so this is often a test slot for me. That said, it has won me a couple of games (often via opponent misplays not playing around it). I typically just run 1. Modern is still a creature format, after all. While Pierce can be powerful and it has plenty of targets in the format, they're usually not the ones winning the game for the opponent. Though I gotta say I do love hitting a Cryptic with it.

Remand / Mana Leak
I'm combining them here not because they're necessarily fungible but because I've thought a LOT about what sort of split to run between the two. You could plot a graph for these where one is better early and the other better later, with them meeting on a specific turn - depending on the CMC of what you're countering. For instance, if you're countering a 2 mana spell then Leak is better until their 5th land drop at which point Leak becomes a tax and Remand is a cantrip. But if that's a 4CMC spell you're countering, they can cast through Leak on 7 lands but Remand Time Walks them until 8 lands. Modern seems like a T2 and T4 format so I like a split favoring Remand. In the past I've had 4 Remand 0 Leak and I've also had 2 and 2. I think I may try 3 Remand and 1 or 2 Leak.

Treasure cruise is the most back breaking thing in the lategame. Everytime I cast it after turn 4, it ends the game.

I'm kind of on board with the idea of a single hibernation. The boggles matchup is atrocious, and hibernation lets you actually catch up while being applicable in other matchups.

With a raw draw three in our deck, I don't mind having a hurkyulls recall for creatures.

Is Boggles large in your meta? I've heard a lot of SB advice about not hedging for a matchup you're not likely to see. That said, Hibernation is better than some of the MD cards against Jund/Junk and Pod, too.

Murderous Cut should probably be in the 75 in some number. If it replaces Dismember you may have more ability to run Bob, though of course that's 5 off the flip if you find it with him.

Not sure much SB consideration should be given to rogue strategies. However, surgical synergizes with YP very well, just like probe. If you want the effect, I'd say maybe cut 1 for your third spell snare.

This was my first real Modern deck and I also built Jund/BG variants that I've been taking to larger events recently. I'm thinking of paying more attention to Delver again. I had tried a white splash for Geist and Helix. It has more straight punching power but lacks the late game grindiness of UR versions. I'm going to be picking this back up, I think. I've always had either 3 or 4 Pyromancer in it, but I'm going to be experimenting with no Pyromancers also.