Dies to Removal

but imopen, there's no kill!

Fuck if I know. Lynch WitchHunt, I guess, since you would have already won the game by that point. More likely you lynch me and somehow that makes you lose? I have no idea. But don't worry. It's been rcw all along.

Wrong.

I'd always support a Stardust lynch but all of a sudden I'm wondering if Dechs has been the under-our-nose scum all along. Too bad that by lynching me first you probably won't get the chance to know.

Really? So... we lose? Like, I have no idea what to say. If Dechs wins come morning I'm going to destroy him.

He can't be scum! He can't be! The way he flipped my evidence for being town (that I'd discarded a mafia card) to include him, only to continue to doubt me... Like, you'd think he'd be happy to have someone rooting for solid evidence there. No. No way. If the game really isn't over right now, I'm voting for WitchHunt.

I don't know if town loses now or not but it just got a LOT closer. And if Stardust and someone else are Cult the town just lost.

Vote RCW

This was the hammer, right? Stardust, then Az, then Dechs?

Fuck if I know. Lynch WitchHunt, I guess, since you would have already won the game by that point. More likely you lynch me and somehow that makes you lose? I have no idea. But don't worry. It's been rcw all along.

Wrong.

I'd always support a Stardust lynch but all of a sudden I'm wondering if Dechs has been the under-our-nose scum all along. Too bad that by lynching me first you probably won't get the chance to know.

So, what do we do when he flips town?

This is exactly what will happen, so get your ducks in a row kiddies.

Is Innocent Child an alignment and a role all wrapped up in one? Or is it just a role? Because if it's just a role, he could have chosen it with any alignment.

Stardust, I'm coming from the position of knowing that I'm town. So when you assert that you, Dechs, and Witch are all town, and we know Az has been mod-confirmed, that's why I just can't believe you.

Everybody just answer this question for themselves (silently if you want, ITT if you don't care about "lining up lynches"):

If I'm lynched today and I flip town, what is your next move?

Because I'm flipping town. You might as well think it through now so you know whether or not you can even win the game if you lynch me.

bah nvm. Just read innocent child. all makes sense now.

Oh, must have missed that. I just saw rez saying he was town, didn't see the role confirmation.

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

Az, please answer this. If you do have a daykill, I'd like to see it resolved like a second lynch, i.e. three people voting someone and you cast the "final vote."

I will not be using a daykill today.

If you do have one, now might be the time to use it. Kill your #1 suspect, if that person flips town you have a lynch left without going to night.

Stardust, I feel like you're just not thinking about this from a townie's mindset. Which makes you the best lynch.

Let's say for argument's sake that you're town. I know I'm town, and Azrael was mod-confirmed. Out of the 5, let's just assume those are the 3 town and Dechs and WitchHunt, however implausible you think, are non-town. Lynch me and it's 2-2. If Dechs and Witch are the same faction then town loses. If they're not there's still a chance.

Now, the same math certainly applies if we lynch you and you're town. But I really don't think you're town.

Let's assume that I'm the only threat to town, and that it's 4 town 1 non-town. You have 2 mislynches to get me. Since you know I'm neutered whether I'm town or not there's practically no downside to this.

You've convinced me fairly well that both Witch and Dechs are town, although neither are really "confirmed." But you've been a huge question mark all game long.

He's the only one. Everyone else is town

This is just so wrong. Azrael is the only confirmed town.

vote Stardust

I should be the last resort lynch, not the why not lynch. I'm a known quantity.

I'm not wriggling. I just think Stardust is glossing over important things and that's dangerous.

I'm not trying to get Dechs lynched since I'm just as convinced he's town. All I'm saying is that once Stardust and I are gone if the game's still going Dechs should no longer be considered confirmed.

But I'm using his cards as an example. Yes, Silencer is confirmed. But in no way whatsoever is the "TOWN LOVER" card confirmed. According to Dechs, that's the card he took his alignment from. This same problem exists for everybody's claims. Just because there haven't been counterclaims doesn't mean all these claims are confirmed, and we'd be remiss to base decisions on them.

he's also town for the same reason I am: he discarded a mafia card, there is no scum with reliable killing powers, therefore Dechs chose town because no one would choose Alien or Cult over mafia.

This is just theory, can't be proven, and is WIFOM. No decisions should be based on this loose of an argument.

Show how it's loose. Do you think he chose mafia/werewolf and is withholding his kill? It might make sense to do this now, but certainly not on Night 1 or 2. Do you think he would intentionally choose an alignment that is strictly worse than another alignment he had available?

[/quote]

Sure. I'll start with Dechs's own words:

I just said why. Because it looks fun and no one sees it coming.

Plenty of people will choose to handicap themselves physically in order to win mentally. A fantastic example is my dad playing tennis. When he plays, he consistently runs around the backhand. He'll go out of his way and risk missing a return just to avoid his backhand. People pick up on this pretty quickly, and start shooting towards his backhand. Eventually he has to use it. The cool part is that his backhand is his best shot; he can put an ugly spin on the ball and hit it damn hard. The opponent is expecting an easy point, but what they get is blown out of the water.

But further, why are we relying on claimed discards? This is what you wrote for Dechs:

Dechs Kaison
Discarded: Mafia Roleblocker
Alignment: Town Lover
Role: Alien Silencer

The problems here are that 1. "town lover" could be a fake claim, and 2. there are lover cards from other alignments. Red claimed an Alien Bulletproof Lover card, but there's still an unclaimed Mafia Lover card that Dechs's alignment could have come from. And that's even if we believe the "lover" part of his alignment. The only reason we're treating parts of these cards as "confirmed" is because there aren't any counterclaims.

Also, is Dechs just "confirmed townie" because of his content? If push comes to shove that will have to be re-examined.

You will be lynched long before push comes to shove,

Of course I'll get lynched before Dechs. But once I'm lynched you'll all know I was Saulus and am now Vanilla Town. If that point comes after a Stardust lynch, Dechs's alignment should probably be questioned.

he's also town for the same reason I am: he discarded a mafia card, there is no scum with reliable killing powers, therefore Dechs chose town because no one would choose Alien or Cult over mafia.

This is just theory, can't be proven, and is WIFOM. No decisions should be based on this loose of an argument.

how long have you been holding on to that quote as a cute way of calling me a Judas?

Also, is Dechs just "confirmed townie" because of his content? If push comes to shove that will have to be re-examined.

Right, exactly. If imopen follows through with this, rcw is basically the only possible lynch left (with plenty of time to spare to lynch me if you still don't trust me).

I'd be MUCH more comfortable with lynching Stardust before lynching me. Think about it. We all know that whether I was a Judas or a Saulus I can't kill. So if the game doesn't end with imopen following through with it, that means there's someone left who can take actions toward a win-condition. Regardless of which side of the 50/50 you think I'm on, I don't fit that bill.

There's no way for town to lose.

These are dangerous words.

If there was no way for town to lose then the game would be over already. The game ends when there's nothing left that can prevent a town win. Obviously by virtue of the game continuing something can prevent it.

Watch our for Stardust, he's slippery.

I voted myself because I kept thinking nothing would progress today. When there are no good scumspects then the guy who is obviously 50/50 needs to go.

But since then there has been a lot of activity, with both Stardust and RedNihilist sounding more scummy with every post.

I don't want to get lynched again but if it's the only thing for town to do then it's fine. But it's not the only thing anymore, imo.

Since all Lovers die at the same time they'd want to get known so town doesn't vote one lover and potentially lose 2 players. Dangerous though since it's a role (alignment unknown) and a targeted kill after the claim can wreak havoc. I'm also not sure why anybody would choose it, unless it's attached to Cop from the Town Cop/Lover card.

Maybe, but you have to realize that you chose both a role and a first post that are laden with WIFOM. That's going to make people mistrust you.

Yeah, this is actually interesting.
Are you trying to move the aim towards me just for the sake of it or do you just like to lynch your null reads?

It's day 4 and I've got no pro-town evidence on you. Everybody else has got *some* reason not to lynch them today.

Stardust's defense is based on his love of being town plus the cards he discarded.
Witch Hunt I could see lynching, but he actually talks enough for me to get a better read on him potentially.
Imopen is reading town. I'm not sure I like his role-claim, and it might be a false positive, but it's not something I want to pursue.
Dechs is reading hard town.
RCW is reading Saulus.

Process of elimination.

I also guess that you're acting like this on your own, it's not like you suddenly felt the need to show how active you are, right?
Tell me more of this Saulus read you've got on RCW.

Throws mud, makes someone else do the work.

rcw, can you give us a town/scum list? So far today you've been up for lynching imopen, me, WitchHunt and now RedNihilist.

Is this a little misinformation tactic? I've never voted WitchHunt or Red, and never overtly called either one of them scum.

I didn't like that post from WitchHunt because it sounded exactly like the posts I make when I'm scum and I get nailed for them. But it's really the only thing I've noticed against him so I'm not going to spend too much time on it if nobody else cares. I'm still not sure how the cards confirm him town, but everybody else seems to agree with that so whatever.

Red was completely null to me until he barned your vote on me. That type of barn with no real contribution is a scum-tell and it made me remember earlier in the game day he said he didn't like voting me and would elaborate - which never came. That's also a scum tell. So Red very quickly moved from completely null to leaning scum. Obviously Azrael saw something too and I'd like him to elaborate.

Dechs is my strongest town read.

Azrael is leaning town, but I still mistrust how he entered the game with imopen.

Imopen and Stardust have always been the two I trust the least in this game. I've been very clear about that. Imopen has claimed town-oriented roles and it appears they've been somewhat confirmed. That doesn't automatically make him town, but Black Goo is simply not a town-oriented role. There are too many town roles that allow you to target for Black Goo to be something a townie would choose.

In a game like this a T/S list, or even saying someone is scummy, is a little off since there are so many factions. So when I say scummy I really just mean non-town. Here's my list of least town to most town:

Stardust
Imopen
RedNihilist
Azrael
WitchHunt
Dechs
RCWRaspy

New game.

rcw, what was the meaning of this post?

That was in response to the Ham/Az stuff. There's a difference between meta and vendetta.

Alright. Vote Red Nihilist.

I like this but want to hear from you about it.

In reality it's probably somewhere in the middle of the two extremes. But your refusal to account for that in your actions reads as non-town motivation.

RCW is a known entity. I believe that he's the good guy. If I'm wrong and he is a town threat, he's at least one that cannot kill us.

Stardust, I'd like you to talk about this. Obviously I'm biased but I thought this was a really good point. I'm either Saulus or Judas and have been lynched. It's 50/50. If I was Saulus then I'm now town. If I was Judas then I'm now neutered mafia with no qt and no kill. What is the town incentive for lynching me?

The incentive is that we would have to lynch you to win the game. You might be the only threat left. If you're town, or if you're not the only threat left, I don't believe you're a whole lot less dangerous than whatever other threat is out there. If there is another threat, it's not killing us or recruiting us, same as you. The fact that you're a known entity actually makes me want to get rid of you more simply because we don't even know if there's anything else is out there. Having you flip town confirms that we should bother spending our time sniffing out someone else.

There are 7 alive. iirc we were told minimum 4 town. If you really think there are 6 town then I'm on board. I'm town but recognize that I'm the only one who knows that and to others I'm 50/50. So if there are 6 town and 1 threat then it's a good lynch.

Let's take the other extreme. What if there were only 4 town to start the game and Ham was one of them? That leaves 3 town and 4 threats spread over a few possible factions. Do you really want to lynch the guy you know can't hurt you?

RCW is a known entity. I believe that he's the good guy. If I'm wrong and he is a town threat, he's at least one that cannot kill us.

Stardust, I'd like you to talk about this. Obviously I'm biased but I thought this was a really good point. I'm either Saulus or Judas and have been lynched. It's 50/50. If I was Saulus then I'm now town. If I was Judas then I'm now neutered mafia with no qt and no kill. What is the town incentive for lynching me?

I'm not sure I'm okay with lynching rcw at the moment, will post later about it.

What prompted this and then what changed?

Should check the revealed role PM's again - see if the same thing applies to others.

Nope, just me and you. rcw discarded a mafia card, but he's a special case. Actually, taking that into account makes it that much more likely that he's Judas rather than Saulus, now that I think about it. His third card was Werewolf Ninja, right? That makes his three cards Mafia, Werewolf and Saulus/Judas. Considering Saulus doesn't have access to the quicktopic or nightkill, why would he choose to be aligned with the mafia faction rather than just choose mafia? Especially since he could have been a Mafia Ninja, making his nightkill that much more effective. Obviously rcw wanted to be town really badly and was forced to pick the closest thing. By choosing Judas, if he avoids the lynch, he's able to play just like anyone else.

This game is dull, and WitchHunt already pointed out that claiming would have been wrong, so there was no point in trying to keep it up.

This game is dull. Now lynch rcw with me so we can move on to the next game!

I chose what I thought was the most interesting. Which was saulus. Not out of a desire to be town but because it was unique.

Now that there's a little sustained pressure you're really trying to think of anything.

I've always been fine lynching Imopen or Stardust. Stardust took the role that is anti town and it got confirmed by Ham. Imopen has proven roles that can be good town roles. Stardust is the better Lynch.

unvote

vote Stardust

All we know is there hasn't been a nightkill. Not that there won't be. Grasping at straws maybe but it's possible.

Counter claiming Jamie doesn't confirm WitchHunt as town. Just as not werewolf.

Do I want to jump on the Wagon of one of my original scumspects? Yeah, I think I do.

unvote

vote imopen2

Scummy post is scummy. I'm not going to dissect it.

Why not? That post doesn't read as scummy at all to me. The logical thing for a townie to do here is dissect it, or at least show that you're not just making things up.

Because it pisses me of that when I post like that I get called out for it but when someone else does it nobody cares.

Scummy post is scummy. I'm not going to dissect it. I'm the logical lynch for today (or Stardust but I don't see that happening) so lets get it over with. GL tomorrow cause I'm flipping town. Imopen missed the boat on keeping a townie alive.

vote rcwraspy