Dies to Removal

Day 3: every time I asked myself "Is he really scum, or am I just tunneling him?" he brushed off every theory like evreybody except him was an idiot.
100% would hang again.

Thanks DK!

I'm town, so sleep peacefully ._.

Puzzle pieces:

295

334

339

365

366

392

394

397

My opinion of the red posts are that they lean mostly town. I think that town read still holds true, if we're in a one-scum setup.

Imopen, not so much. PBPA him, tomorrow. See what else turns up.

I'm writing this under the assumption that you'll flip town, as I don't really want to believe you'll do this amount of research just for the sake of hoping that somebody could save you during twilight.
This is not meant to be a lecture or anything, nor I'll be going to complain about the way you play or anything as you're clearly a better player than me, but I've really had a hard time playing with you.

I'm sorry I'm not the best player around, but I really find it difficult to consider my investigation results fake, so lynching you was the only move that could make sense from my perspective - I've also tried to interact with you at times, but when I called you out on mudslinging + terror strategies I was sincere.
You may have correctly identified GR, but you've also forced us all to lynch ham even with at least a couple of us 95% sure of him being town, and you've got your reads on me completely wrong at multiple times, that makes your work pretty average I'd say, even giving you credit for your understandable frustration on the last day.

I'd like to say that next time I'd like to have a better experience of playing with you but I'm quite fed up with mafia at the moment so I'd be lying.

Anyway, I'll read the posts you pointed out even if killing imopen is pretty much a given anyway at this point of the game if you turn out town.
See you in the post-game.

From DK's perspective, anyways. I'm not sure it's quite so cut and dried as that, but I do know we're probably going down in flames if we mislynch on me, leave someone who's demonstrated inexplicable untargetability alive, and eliminate the only guy who took steps to give CK another vig-shot for tomorrow.

If you want I can submit plans for a chronoboost as well.
It takes just one day, doesn't it?

The other four townies get to finish building powers and Imopen can retry the cop thing so we can be more certain.

Please explain how Imopen coming up with another cop result tells us *anything*.

We still have only chance to lynch correctly. We can either trust Imopen's word today, or trust his word then, and a 2nd result that could be equally fake makes no difference.

The advantage of taking an actual lynch shot today is that it won't end the game. We'll have two shots to get it right, not just a single one. It's less useful to worry about mislynching, than it is to worry about the consequences of when you mislynch, or who you mislynch. We don't want *one* shot to get it right with lots of information. We want two or possibly three shots to get it right, and our 2nd shot will have even more information than we'd get if we no-lynched today. But we don't get multiple shots if we let Imopen skate through today. We only have one way to deal with him, the lynch, and it won't be ready in time.

Did you read my analysis that demonstrates that the only scum team which you believe in as a possibility that can feasibly win is a Red/Imopen team? If it's a single scum, no matter who it is, they've already lost, even if we mislynch AND mis-vig AND mislynch someone again. That's not what you have to worry about. The only thing that can stop us now, is if we fail to play safe against the two-scum gambit.

Are you telling me that scum doesn't have a nightkill, or are you trying to distort the options in order to pilot DK to do what you say?

What happens if we don't lynch and scum kills CK?

About imopen's eventual immunity:
if he lied to me and survived CK's shot, I guess he's just been given that kind of role.

So, this is my plan of action:
- lynch Azrael;
- see him flip scum;
- ...?
- profit.

In the unlikely case he flips town:
- lynch imopen2 aka the-guy-immune-to-town-powers;
- see him flip scum;
- profit.

Someone please come up with counterexamples.

DK, if we vote no lynch, they will probably just kill you or LMD and we will have gained absolutely nothing. An extra day if building devices does not equal a town life imo, especially when I know az is scum

Already considered that and it won't happen. CK is too valuable a target if he's town, as are you. They can't let both of you guys live.

Why should imopen die? In the remote hypothesis that Azrael is town, imopen would get lynched no matter what tomorrow - why should they bother NKing him?

Scum's either going to kill CK to stop his vig or Imopen to stop him from using the second shot of his cop ability. Either way, it eliminates one of the big three suspects right now.

Scum will either kill LMD or you, as killing any other player would narrow the pool of the mislynchable players at this point of the game.

I've read that already, but the fact is you're too concerned with the three scum setup. You said earlier that three scum was practically impossible. What changed your mind?

Because two scum trying to kill me.

It's not feasible that there are less than two scum due to the claims that Imopen and Red have made. Together their claims make a non-two scum scenario impossible.

Imopen says I'm scum. I know that's a lie. And it's a lie that only pays off if there's two scum. Red says Imopen is town. That's also a lie. Therefore, Imopen and Red are scum, together.

You're at it again.
I'm town and if you are as well you're too dumb to be alive at this point.

Be mindful that I've already stated that I'm willing to follow the Occam's Razor and consider you scum, as imopen claims having you as confirmed scum + myself having him as town.

I enjoy how both you and Imopen are mirroring the same flawed, logically corrupt arguments from one another, like chanting Occam's razor like it's some kind of decisive mantra, or as if it even applies here. You and Imopen both being scum running an endgame gambit is hardly some kind of convoluted, overly complicated theory, and Occam's razor flies right out the window when you're dealing with a game of deception, rather than a scientific inquiry based on empirical observation.

I don't see any logical reason for you to discard pre-emptively any explanation of what could have gone wrong with our inventions, you're just being overly confrontational because you're trapped in a corner.

Overly confrontational? You're spamming buzz words that don't even apply to anything I'm posting.

Imopen is just mindlessly chanting catchphrases like "listen to the cop" and "occam's razor" and hoping that people swallow them gullibly, and doing his best to argue people into vigging him for a 2nd time in a row, bc THAT's definitely going to end well.

Meanwhile, I'm trying to actually cooperate with my teammates, discuss all the gritty details of the situation, come up with a plan of action that satisfies all parties, to the point that I refrained from taking Imopen's head on a silver platter because I wanted to make sure that was what my team was ready to do, and that we were all on the same page.

Since the day imopen has claimed to have you as scum and I've confirmed him as town you've just limited your interaction with me to just claiming me scum and saying that everything I say makes no sense, to the point of calling "travesty" my attempts to come up with an explanation to what could have happened to mislabel you.
The only explanation to your behaviour I can come up with consists in you knowing very well that your only way out is trying to get imopen lynched, then come up with something like "well, right now it's clear that it was RN that has messed with his power and directed him all along" as soon as he flips town.

Chomping at the bit a little, are we?

I don't get the meaning of this, sorry.

Would not lynching be a proper move?

Arigato gozaimasu

Alright. New plan.

I'm just going to trust the cop. If Imopen is lying, it's because there's two scum left, but I don't care, I still clinch this for Town tonight.

Vote Azrael

Votecount, bitte.

Sure:

Thanks, I tried but I just couldn't find'em, Iswear.

Also, you're saying that you think GR's jailer/roleblock proves that the scum could very well have been given an ability to replace the results of a liar detector test as they see fit?

That's not even a named role, Red. There's absolutely zero reason to assume that the scum were given highly specific methods of countering extremely specific inventions that the the town *might* choose to build.

I can sense CK's getting about as frustrated with this travesty as I am.

"Saving the town from itself" isn't an idea a townie would think? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what ANY townie in this situation would be thinking right now.

We need to get on with the process of killing us both so that Red and Imopen lose, preferably by lynching imopen first, but whatever guarantees Red and Imopen die before they can win is good by me.

I don't want to hear what Dechs' plan is, but I don't know if I'm comfortable counting on it to prevent a mafia victory. Maybe if he confirms that it can't be roleblocked, redirected, doesn't rely on targeting a particular person correctly, and doesn't involve a targeting ability on imopen? There's a lot of different ways relying on a single person's plan could go wrong, so I'd prefer to come up with redundant fail-safes, if I'm the first to go.

Nope, I'm saying that scum COULD have some dedicated, setup-specific role that can mess with the device we build.
Something like "Mod, I want the next usage of CK's invention to fizzle".

Be mindful that I've already stated that I'm willing to follow the Occam's Razor and consider you scum, as imopen claims having you as confirmed scum + myself having him as town.

I don't see any logical reason for you to discard pre-emptively any explanation of what could have gone wrong with our inventions, you're just being overly confrontational because you're trapped in a corner.

Oh yeah I'm a Master Builder specialized on offensive weapons, I'm the metal beard pirate guy

Also Red are you lazy or what? I've just reposted my claim a few posts above yours.

Right now I'm ill AND lazy, sorry

Also, please clain even if you have already done so, I don't want to go back rereading everything...

How has ck demonstrated anything? I am not against being lynched over vigged. I'm against you guys lynching me and pretending that ck is going to vig you afterwards when the town will have no ability to force him to do it (and has no proof that a vig even exists).

You always love skipping the facts. Like the fact that my plan to lynch/vig would have worked, provided that the first 3 votes would have been mine, and Az.

Its almost as you are most invested in saving your ass rather than furthering the town cause.

It wouldn't actually work as you intended, though, as Az's vote would have been resetted by his death
I mean, I don't want to sound abrasive, but you presented your plan like it was flawless but it ended up being quite sketchy instead.

Something else I just realized, we never had Red or Imopen claim their flavor.

This gave me an idea, actually.
Let's all call our specialization!

I'm Princess Unkitty ( ), and I'm especially good at building devices that make others happy

Now, everyone, be good townies and claim your specializations

I wondered yesterday whether I ought to hammer Imopen just to protect the town from itself. : /

Dechs, the possibility of a sabotage device has been raised several times, first by Red, then by me. It's a possibility, provided that the scum team has a master builder. But we don't have any firm evidence that either the scum team has any master builders, or that that's what happened.

Given the choice between jumping at shadows over a device that I'm not sure the scum have the capability to build, or evaluating their behavior, I think Imopen wouldn't be nearly so dense about wanting to be vigged instead of lynched, and like you said, they couldn't have switched two results in a single night. And if Imopen is scum, so is Red. And neither of those two have demonstrated any building abilities, whereas CK has. If Imopen isn't scum, then CK would have to be at the top of the list of possible scum, which makes very little sense to me behaviorally or in terms of his role capabilities and night actions.

I'm having some issues with the bolded sentence, and I'd like you to link me the post when you previously addressed the possibility of scum being able to sabotage town's actions.

Also, why should scum need to have any Master Builder to mess up with our devices?
Go read G_R's pm, he had built-in powers that let him mess with other's results without having to build anything, and a "saboteur" role would make sense in the flavour.

I won't have my device ready before tomorrow either.

Is everyone working on a plan?

I don't really get thy point, mr. Azrael.
You're not going to both flip town, so I'll never need to explain anything.
You're just telling me that you're either town or alone as scum, easy as that.

why did my vig shot against you failed on day 1?

You just didn't vig shot anybody, for example.

Oh, and btw Vote Azrael.

Goodnight, it's 2.47 here and I actually wanted to go sleep a hour ago.

The one we're currently in, for example.

I'll be more specific. In what universe could you be telling the truth about getting a town-result on Imopen through your claimed ability, and still be town?

How does that happen, pray tell?

Yesterday imopen asked for a list of "I'm town" posts, and I've been pretty inquisitive about how his role would have worked.
You know, the fact that I had a single shot lie detector deployed after two days of work while he had two shots didn't rub me in the right way, so I tried to see if I could have him slip.
I ended up asking him post something like that as well in case there was a mimic around, soft-claiming I could be one and actually expecting to die overnight if he was just scum attempting some stunt because, you know, if a mimic ends up mimicing something different from a lie detector he ends up discovering he wasn't... well... mimicing a lie detector.
I didn't die, and got a positive response on his post, so I'm pretty confident he is town.

Let's say you flip town - a thing I feel is really unlikely: we end up in a situation where somebody has either messed up with townImopen's power in order to have you turn out scum, or somebody has messed up with mine in order to cover scumImopen's gambit, probably imopen himself.

These are actually quite simple scenarios and one doesn't really need to be the Rising New Star of Mafia in order to figure that much out, yet you jumped straight at the conclusion that there MUST be a two scum team alive and that they're plotting against you exposing themselves rather than just shooting you down at night, and that's EXTREMELY convenient to you, because trying to pass this as the only possible explanation lets you say that a mislynch means loss for the town.

My only concern now is discovering whether you're the last remaining scum, or if you've got a partner (MoJo-Khaddafi).

Warning: extreme WIFOM inside:

Because it's a stupid gambit if he's the only scum left. We lynch Az, find out he's lying, then lynch him. The only way him lying makes sense is if there are two scum to end the game.

... or we find out that Az was in fact town, and imopen goes with "Somebody's interfered with my power! I explicitly stated I would have used it! We're getting outplayed!" and we end up actually not knowing if he's the desperate scum that's trying to grind his way out or if somebody has really just messed up with his power.
The scenario is not as stupid as you're hoping, imho.

If both Imopen and I flip town under this scenario, I think the town still goes ahead and kills you with its final lynch, and wins.

I'm absolutely positive that you and imopen can't be both town, so that's not a problem imho.

I really hope this is going to work out properly.

PS: if this wasn't clear enough - LMD unvote please.

LMD think about it.
I'm going to bed.
Let's see if town manages to lose this one as well by just not listening to me lol

Well... maybe not.
If the third vote is Azrael, the vig shot won't domino-kill imopen, so the plan doesn't work.
If the third vote on imopen is someone else's, he just hammers and win.

Your plan doesn't work.

Sounds fine to me.

The next question is: with all this vig-shot bonanza going on, I think I've missed an episode - who's today's vigilante?
Do we have a vig shot ready today?

The one we're currently in, for example.

Warning: extreme WIFOM inside:

Because it's a stupid gambit if he's the only scum left. We lynch Az, find out he's lying, then lynch him. The only way him lying makes sense is if there are two scum to end the game.

... or we find out that Az was in fact town, and imopen goes with "Somebody's interfered with my power! I explicitly stated I would have used it! We're getting outplayed!" and we end up actually not knowing if he's the desperate scum that's trying to grind his way out or if somebody has really just messed up with his power.
The scenario is not as stupid as you're hoping, imho.

Occam's Razor: imopen isn't lying.

If he is, tell me why he needs to have a partner.

There are two possible lines at this point:
- Azrael is scum. GG.
- Azrael is town. At that point, imopen is scum and has managed to mess with my power, and that's not *that* impossible.

As said earlier, I consider DK + LMD town, yet I'm still bothered that Col.MoJo.
imopen's call on Azrael, though, is very relevant, and there's absolutely no way that scum could mess up with both my power and imopen's, so a town-flip from Azrael would seal the deal on him being scum.

Thus I think the proper line consists in hanging Azrael then, based on his flip:
- win;
- lynch imopen if Azrael flips town;
- lynch Khaddafi if Azrael flips town and we're still not winning (debatable).

Actually, I'm having second thoughts on the proper line at this point.

I'm making dinner, I'll post about it later.