Dies to Removal

You could have opted not to kill and tried to get Az on board a Witch wagon. Might have worked, though the fact that you voted Witch out of the gates raised serious red flags for me (and probably would have for him).

So, why did you choose Alien instead of Mafia anyway?

I told you exactly why already.

Jank Ass Clerics.

Nothing is stopping you from playing in exactly the same way you did here, except you win the game by having a second nightkill.

More serious answer: I was worried there would be too many people picking Mafia. I didn't want to be on a three or four man team in a nine player game. That wouldn't have been fun at all. So I went with the non-obvious choice.

Also, the "no one sees it coming" totally applies. Hell, it's the biggest reason you guys thought I was town, right? I'd have been a bigger suspect and I wouldn't have played at all the same way, even if I were alone, as mafia.

You could have opted not to kill and tried to get Az on board a Witch wagon. Might have worked, though the fact that you voted Witch out of the gates raised serious red flags for me (and probably would have for him).

So, why did you choose Alien instead of Mafia anyway?

I told you exactly why already.

Jank Ass Clerics.

I ran out of options once Az decided he was going to lynch RCW instead of Stardust. If he'd have lynched Stardust, I could have silenced RCW while we lynched him, then silenced Witch Hunt and lynched him. Then shot Az.

Basically, since I couldn't silence Stardust, I couldn't win.

Thank you, thank you. I did the best I could, but there was no way I could win that.

I'm sad because you guys will never let me get away with that shit again.

Welp. I've re-read this whole game four times now. This is just the way it has to be.

Vote WitchHunt

If the game really isn't over right now, I'm voting for WitchHunt.

Weren't you the one who couldn't even conceive a way for WitchHunt to be anything but Town? What changed?

If he's not Town, what is he? How?

Vote RCW

This was the hammer, right? Stardust, then Az, then Dechs?

Yeah, it's exactly what I promised a page ago. I was going to let Az decide and vote with him. If he's wrong, which you're insisting, then I want to lynch Stardust tomorrow. I don't think he can win toNight.

So, what do we do when he flips town?

If they did orchestrate all that, they fucking deserve to win.

I really don't want to entertain a scenario where WitchHunt and Jamie orchestrated a brilliant gambit like that. Mostly because it'll make me feel stupid.

No, it's a role, and it's a blacklisted combination with any alignment other than Town.

I just want to explain where I'm coming from when I say that it doesn't feel right to hang RCW.

I felt like this during the Lego Mafia game. Az was copped and we were told that he was scum. The same night, the cop was also copped and we were told that he was town. I tried to think of any way that those results could be anything but irrefutable. We knew there was only one scum left, so the two cops weren't in it together. The town came up with a plan. We were going to lynch Az and if he flipped town, we'd lynch the first cop. We figured it was more likely that he was a lying Godfather.

Aside from those cop results, I had every reason to believe that Az was Town. No, scratch that; I was sure of it. I was also sure that both cops were town. We couldn't think up any explanation for how that could be, though, so we lynched Az. Then the town cop. Logic failed us and we almost lost that game.

That's the feeling I have with RCW right now. I think he's being set up as the logical lynch. I don't like it.

I guess I have to face reality, though. There's no night kills; there might be no scum. Maybe RCW is just doing what he has to as a Judas without a team. It would be a moral victory if he was lynched by the last two remaining Town players, Az and Witch.

I'm confident enough with the mechanics that we don't lose if we mislynch today. So I'm going to leave my vote up to Az on this one. Stardust and RCW have one vote each. I'll go whichever way Az does. If we guess wrong, so be it, we correct the next Day.

Interesting that you post that right as I'm saying lynching Dechs is a good idea. I'll give it a better read tomorrow, but I'll just remind you, WitchHunt, that a scum Dechs does win the game today thanks to his silencer ability (4 alive, 3 to lynch with only 3 people able to vote).

I'd just like to point out that if I were scum, I should have at least one night kill. I would have been able to kill Az last night, silence RCW, and already be in a winning position.

And even if I didn't have the night kill, I would have just let you guys hang RCW at the start of the Day to accomplish the same thing.

Look, if I were Mafia trying to save RCW just because I'm looking for an extra buddy, I'd have just killed Az last Night. There'd be two of you and two of us and the we would have already won.

Yeah, those posts were Days apart. Early, it was a waste to cop RCW because the possibility that a Mafia existed was still there. A few Nights without NKs and the only thing the Cop ability was useful for was confirming/clearing RCW.

Alright, let's leave no stone unturned. We've been clearing Dechs based on behavior so far. Should we?

Of course not. That's what RCW was trying to tell you guys at the end of the Day and that's a good portion of why I'm still convinced he's town. I'm probably his strongest supporter right now and he's telling you to look into me. He's not trying to buddy with me at all.

Az is the only confirmed Town. Innocent Child and all that.
WitchHunt, barring insane gambit and astronomical probabilities, is also Town. His counterclaim wasn't refuted at all. He had the Town Cop/Lover card. He also had the Paranoid card and it worked, killing Imopen. Imopen was a Lover, so if WitchHunt hadn't taken the alignment from his Cop/Lover card, then he'd be dead right now, too.

Then look at me. I don't understand what in my behavior has you so convinced I'm Town. I think I'm getting a lot better at this game, but I'm still learning. What I see as the best reason to think I'm Town is the Mafia Roleblocker card I discarded. That would have been a great role for an anti-town player to have.

Stardust gave me an even better defense with the whole "If I'm not town, then what am I?" line of logic. If he were scum, he'd be killing people. He wouldn't choose Alien over Mafia because it's strictly worse. You've heard this all before and it applies to me, too. The problem is that it's actually WIFOM. I pointed out the intentional handicap play; I use this technique when I play Legacy because I'm playing a mono black list out of no where. It catches people off guard and it works, even if it's not a top tier deck.

This is where I should tell you to look at behavior. Stardust and I have the exact same logical reasons to say "I'm Town, hang somebody else." Stardust is pushing an agenda, though. Let me point it out.

Stardust had the fast hammer on RCW.
Stardust had to know someone would target him because they didn't believe him. His Black Goo ability turned Ham cult and gave us another Town player that we had to hang.
Despite how hard he's been pushing on RCW, he was happy to hang Red.
You remember how sure Stardust was that Imopen was Town? It was Stardust's plan that killed Imopen.

I think he's narrowing down the field. I don't know what he plans to do when it's just you, me, him and Witch, but I know he has more options than RCW does if we're wrong about him.

Possible cards that RCW could have used to get a power that can jeopardize a town win:

Town 1-Shot Vigilante (1 card)
Town 1-Shot Day Vigilante (2 cards)
Mafia 1-Shot Day Vigilante (1 card)

Unless I'm missing something, those powers are the only way he could pull a win out of his sleeve. He'd need to do it when there are only two other players left to pull out his scum win if he's a Judas. With five or even four of us alive, I don't see how it's even possible for him to win.

Aside from the fact that I just believe RCW when he's telling me he's town, I have to agree with his logic. He should be our last resort lynch.

Saulus or Judas is an alignment. He got to choose an ability to go with that. Nothing in the cards says that he loses the ability when lynched, just that his alignment changes.

It's possible that he's a one shot vigilante or something.

By the way, I'm back from my Limited Access. It is almost midnight, though, so any talking I do will be in a few hours.

He's an innocent child. That was his role. He has no daykill.

vote Stardust

I should be the last resort lynch, not the why not lynch. I'm a known quantity.

I can't really argue with this logic. If RCW is our last threat, he's not really a threat until there's three people left and we decide to lynch someone else.

He cannot win unless he's a vigilante and we don't lynch him when there's four of us.

It still doesn't feel right. I think he's coming from the right mindset.

Ugh. I guess.

I'm scared because I'm not sure which of you we should lynch first if this thing tonight doesn't just end the game.

It doesn't matter. It really really doesn't matter. Lynch me first if it makes you feel better. We know rcw can't kill. The only advantage to killing him first is ending the game a little sooner. If imopen doesn't follow through with targeting WitchHunt, he might be a better lynch anyway.

Absolutely agreed with the last part. If Imopen doesn't help us confirm WitchHunt is town, then he's definitely not acting in our interests and we should hang him.

I'm scared because I'm not sure which of you we should lynch first if this thing tonight doesn't just end the game.

It does make sense. And I like the plan for the reason that Imopen is still one of my top suspects.

So if Imopen dies, we'll have Az and WitchHunt which are surely town, plus you, me, and RCW. Yeah, I think you're right. There's no way for town to lose.

I feel like you're just trying to get people killed.

Are you just trying to get people killed?

Fine.

vote Red

That's right. I suppose we may want him to verify that he still has that ability available at some point, as we approach end-game.

Still got it. Haven't used it because risky.

If I hear a consensus on who to silence, I'll hit them.

No objections.

Limited Access: I will be spending the next few days on vacation as I move my family into our new apartment in this country. I will not have my computer available until this Saturday at 9:00PM GST (Noon, EST). I will have my phone with me and have periodic access to the internet. I'll keep up with the thread and I will change my vote if I find any arguments compelling. Do not expect me to make the usual lengthy posts. I'll be happy to explain everything and answer questions once I get back to my computer.

I will be available for the next hour from the time of this post.

Azrael, are you saying you have a daykill? Obviously I have no problem with you shooting rcw, though I'm surprised that you'd decide to go for that.

Az, please answer this. If you do have a daykill, I'd like to see it resolved like a second lynch, i.e. three people voting someone and you cast the "final vote."

Yup, at this point of the game I'm just worse than a Town Vanilla, so I decided to claim my loverness in order to try to bait fake claims from people that wanted to avoid being lynched.

Am I the only one who finds this sketchy? How would he bait a false claim if he has no idea who is or isn't a lover.

This is an extremely valid question.

Red, you said you didn't get any information from the Mod that you're the only Lover. How would you know that a claim is a false claim?

Since all Lovers die at the same time they'd want to get known so town doesn't vote one lover and potentially lose 2 players. Dangerous though since it's a role (alignment unknown) and a targeted kill after the claim can wreak havoc. I'm also not sure why anybody would choose it, unless it's attached to Cop from the Town Cop/Lover card.

Said the guy who claimed Saulus
Or that other guy, whatevs.

His options were Mafia, Werewolf, or Saulus. From his claim, he went with the most town option he had available.

You, however, appear to have chosen "Lover" over "Conspiracy Theorist" at the very least. They are both downsides, but one at least comes with a possibly useful ability. Were you that averse to being tentacled?

Now, there are three options for cards that do cool stuff but happen to come with Lover attached. Cop/Lover out of that is already claimed. Did you choose one of these two?

RCW's only at 2 votes, by the way. You'd only be putting him back to L-1.

I've got no time to do a PBPA because I'm leaving for a tournament today, but reread rcw's behaviour today: his early vote on himself is really a (still soft) scum tell because he wants to prove he doesn't mind dying, but this feat disappeared now.

That's not at all how I read it. Let's go back to the beginning of the day. He voted himself pretty early, was at two votes, then both you and I came into the thread saying we'd rather not lynch him. He unvoted when he thought we were actually going to discuss it first.

Stardust put a vote on him and then he voted himself again. That put him at L-1. If it were only the L-2 self vote, I could see it being scummy. But he went and opened himself to hammer.

It doesn't read like a scum play. It's someone who is that bloody frustrated with how his lynch was set up from the day before.

---------

I am glad you made me re-read, though. Because I found this again:

That being said, witchhunt, why would I block Jaime if I'm scum?

I made a comment on it right after he posted this. I said it was obvious, but since the question was directed, I'd let the askee answer before I did. Well, WitchHunt said his piece but I think we all forgot about the question by now, which I think was Imopen's hope from the start.

1. Why direct the question at WitchHunt? I was the one making the case.
2. Why even ask the question to begin with? It's obvious why you'd block someone whom you knew could kill you.

You direct the question at a single person if you don't want too many people answering it. You just want people to think about it, and not put any good answers on the table.
You don't ask that question if you blocked the dude for town motivated reasons. You ask this kind of question if you're trying to milk the town cred.

My first case on Imopen was behavioral. Lots of double speak and actions that countered what he was saying.
My second case on Imopen was the wasted cop when he could have spared/confirmed RCW.

After each of those cases, I found someone else to go after. Both times Imopen quoted my new case and said "Dechs is town." That's a damning pattern all by itself. He's trying to buddy up to me or something here.

So, third time's a charm. Put all this shit together.

Vote Imopen

Took me a while to get to this. I don't have much time on my weekends (Friday-Saturday) and I'm limited to my phone. Back to work and at a computer today.

Dechs, who do you want to lynch? Me still?

I'd still rather lynch you than RCW. I really want to believe you, Stardust, but then you do stuff like this little exchange:

rcw, can you give us a town/scum list? So far today you've been up for lynching imopen, me, WitchHunt and now RedNihilist.

Is this a little misinformation tactic? I've never voted WitchHunt or Red, and never overtly called either one of them scum.

Saying you were "up for lynching" them was maybe a bit strong, but the fact that you've been a bit jumpy today, moving to whatever wagon at the time, caught my eye. I like this latest post of yours though. Feels townie and your reasoning is good, even if there's not much concrete there.[/quote]
You have to see how this is making me uncomfortable. You did misrepresent RCW. Then you backpedaled all over it with the justification that he'd been jumpy, moving to whatever wagon. He's voted for two people today (not counting the self vote). That's hardly being jumpy. I've voted for two different people today. Am I suddenly "up for lynching" everyone?

Then you give him the "I like this" but you have to throw the caveat that "there's not much concrete there."

It's the classic double speak of a scummy player, someone without town interest at heart. You're trying to appease everyone. Again, I really want to believe you, Stardust. A lot of what you're saying in defense of yourself makes sense. You're just acting off for a town player.

You know, there's another option we haven't been considering that does fit with your tactics. Survivor. That's not really anti-town unless you think an anti-town team has a good shot at winning. You would just want the game over without getting lynched and without getting night killed (which Black Goo would prevent).

I thought I read that... But now I can't find anything about it.