Dies to Removal

Nobody at my table plays the titans, which is why I want to. Speaking of fatties...

Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur (Not for drawing, but for locking out the table.)
Sheoldred, Whispering One (Also recursion.)
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger (Also ramp.)
Avenger of Zendikar
Kederekt Leviathan
Lord of Extinction
[cards]Wurmcoil Engine[/cards]
[cards]Kokusho, the Evening Star[/cards]
Keiga, the Tide Star
Artisan of Kozilek (More recursion.)
Ulamog
Kozilek

Non-fat creatures...
Duplicant (Recurable exiling.)
Solemn Simulacrum
Phyrexian Metamorph
[card:
39hwp7o5]Nirkana Revenant[/card]/Crypt Ghast (Black ramp.)
Sepulchral Primordial
Deadeye Navigator
Kira, Great Glass-Spinner ??
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir ??
Glen Elendra Archmage ??

I feel like I need more threats, maybe? I've focused a lot on ramping and defense. In Chainer I ran Exansuinate. I think I love that card. I've won out of nowhere with it a few times. Genesis Wave? I don't know that I run few enough non-permanents.

Yeah, I'm learning that I really have to evaluate things assuming they won't make it around the table. Immediate impact or bust.

Oh, they'll pay 1 to stop it. There's another guy who runs it in Oloro who really annoys people with it. "Do you pay the extra? ... Do you pay the extra? ... Do you pay the extra? ..." They'll pay it to spite me until I get over the hump of having so much draw the extra cards just don't matter to them. But it is a really good draw engine, and if they do pay the extra I guess slowing them down is good too.

Carpet of Flowers is interesting. I will have to look at the table the next time I play to see how often I can make use of that.

I'm getting ideas, I think. I like recursion that costs 2 or less, unless it's going to have an above the curve effect on my board or it comes on a stick that I can recur.
Animate Dead
Dance of the Dead
Eternal Witness
[card]Life // Death[/card]
Necromancy
Nostalgic Dreams
Reanimate
Regrowth
Victimize

The other exception being recursion I cast to try and end the game.
Living Death
Rise of the Dark Realms

For ramp, I like spells that put me 2+ turns ahead or
ramp on a stick. Ideally not ramp on a stick that does nothing after it's been played, but I'll take what I can get if it's good enough.
Mana Reflection
Oracle of Mul Daya
Prophet of Kruphix
Skyshroud Ranger
Sakura Tribe Scout
Exploration
Burgeoning
Explosive Vegetation
Expedition Map

And rocks...
Sol Ring
Thran Dynamo
Chromatic Lantern
Gilded Lotus

Tutor is easy enough in black, so sticking to the Demonic/Vampiric Tutor and Rune-Scarred Demon staples, and gaining Mystic Tutor in blue. I don't need to go overboard with it like I did in mono-black because I have access to draw engines now.
nFact or Fiction
Thirst for Knowledge
Careful Consideration
Compulsive Research
Frantic Search
Harmonize
Phyrexian Arena
Future Sight

And Damia herself, of course.

Ponder and/or Preordain? Normally safe bets in blue but they seem underwhelming in this deck.

Rhystic Study? Consecrated Sphinx?

I think you're right about being able to do more damage with a 7 cmc slot than with Sphinx of Uthuun. It occurs to me that Damia is a 7 cmc draw engine too, and I can cast her whenever I want. I can use that slot for something to win the game with instead.

How do you feel about Fact or Fiction/Sphinx of Uthuun here? They don't give me discard, but they basically have no disadvantage if I can go back into my yard to get whatever I pitch. And recurring Sphinx can basically be draw on demand.

I like both Rite of Replication and Progenitor Mimic if I'm going to stick to the abusive ETB theme.

I have been wanting to build a Damia deck. And BUG seems like a good combination.

I'm not the world's strongest blue player. What are some staples I should look for here? Draw spells seem redundant if I'm drawing off Damia. A few counters could be nice, I suppose, but I have to take it easy with the extra turn spells.

Actually... going with black and green to get access to mana ramp is a way better idea than going with black and white to get access to more of what the deck already does. Maybe I should revisit Glissa.

Also, can I get a mod to move this thread out of the multiplayer decklist subforum and into the general EDH forum where it should be?

Yeah, pretty much.

That's actually exactly what I do have. I've been running a mono-black Chainer deck (part-time Xiahou Dun deck) with a recursion based shell to abuse ETB/LTB effects from things like Kokusho and Gary. My goal is to make that deck better by adding white for better recursion options and more answers to enchantments. The catch is that my group doesn't allow infinite combos, stax/stasis decks, taking an excessive number of extra turns, or mass land destruction. If someone takes an extra turn here and there, or if someone drops Armageddon after the green player goes T4 Explosive Vegetation into T5 Boundless Realms, they let it slide. But those are the rules I have to play around.

Lack of acceleration is definitely a thing I don't like about it. Enough that I've considered running Junk colors and playing Teneb or Karador just for the ramp. There's already a Karador deck at the table though. I tend to not pick generals other
people are playing, but that's just me. There's no rule against it. I haven't totally committed to Vish Kal, he's just a different commander than Chainer to add white while staying in the same theme.

The table is pretty full of creature based strategies, which people answer by running a lot of board wipes. Tucking happens once in a while. Countermagic is common enough that we keep an eye out for untapped blue mana. Spot removal is very common. Hand disruption is almost non-existent, aside from Nekusar, who runs a lot of wheel effects a lot. Nobody really runs a lot of graveyard hate, but everyone in black has a Bog. Mainly everyone just focuses on what their deck is going to do, being purely reactionary until someone's deck does go off. Then there's a game of Magic and someone wins.

Definitely. I'm trying to trade my Ajani, Mentor of Heroes for one. Nobody has gone for it yet. I might just have to buy one.

I considered that as an option. It's certainly not off the table as one. I do have a board wipe heavy meta, so I'll have to be able to come back from one of those. I can't use Thopter Foundry with Vish Kal, though, because it's Blue too. But you're right, it's not like BW is short on token generators.

I am convinced that I will never stop deck building. I've decided to just embrace that.

Chainer is developing nicely, but I think it can be a little more than it is by adding White to the pile. White adds even more powerful recursion sources and provides access to Enchantment removal, which is something Black lacks. Additionally, I want to explore solutions to some of the things I don't like about Chainer.

1) Getting Chainer to go off requires a lot of pieces that all broadcast what I'm going to do. I need a lifegain engine, or a good head start. I need sac outlets. I need dudes in my 'yard. I need a redundant source of recursion. Big mana helps too... and I need to play control while I dig for them all. I want a more subtle approach to a win that can happen really fast if I need it to.

2)
Chainer is a slow war of attrition, and I have almost no alternate win conditions aside from reanimation to either beat face or create a life drain loop with ETB effects. I like multiple paths to victory, and a few explosive options.


Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter

Some potential win conditions:
- Drain effects; Exsanguinate/Debt to the Deathless, Sanguine Bond into one of those/Beacon of Immortality, etc... Xiahou Dun makes the drain spells reusable. Still needs a ton of mana, which I don't find optimal.
- Life gain into Storm Herd or Storm Herd into Mirror Entity for X>1 to aggro win, or life gain + Felidar Sovereign/Test of Endurance and still having 40/50+ life after going around the table. [card]Glacial Chasm[/card:
38140an0] could help make sure I see my next upkeep with a winning life total.
- General damage; Vish Kal + Vish Kal's first ability, or that + Lashwrithe/Nightmare Lash. Storm Herd sac'd to Vish Kal, or Storm Herd into Mirror Entity for X>1, sac'd to Vish Kal.
- Optional combo win with Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed + Living Death with Kokusho the Evening Star and/or Gray Merchant of Asphodel in my 'yard. Shouldn't be the primary win-con, as it requires the most pieces and setup.
- In a different group than my primary one, Cabal Coffers tapping for more than 5 mana + Deserted Temple + Rings of Brighthearth can generate infinite mana for a game ending Exsanguinate/Debt to the Deathless, or Living Death loop.


It's not a
deck yet, but it's a start. I feel like finding a way to actually close out the game without needing an overly complicated board state is something I need to work on, so advice/suggestions in that regard are welcome.