Dies to Removal

Looking at new Kaladesh cards and we get quite a bit of good stuff. Sadly, with the low creature count in the deck, we won't be able to take advantage of any of the new vehicles. Though there is some slight potential in going with the energy route. The biggest boon for this deck will be that its worst enemy *Bant CoCo* has rotated out and the deck retains most of its powerful core, only losing out on Exquisite Firecraft which already had a good replacement in Collective Defiance.

I won't be doing much new deck building for Kaladesh, instead I will be looking to refine what is already there. Though I am tempted to do something R/b/x with artifacts and vehicles down the road since I think there's some great potential there. There is also potential with adding energy to the madness and adding a few artifacts to the deck.

For now, i'll just go over all the new cards that we would be most interested in for the already existing R/b madness deck.

Cathartic Reunion: This is Tormenting Voice on steroids. The initial cost of discarding 2 cards seems like it would be a hard pill to swallow even in a deck like this one. This card seems like it's more suited for a re-animator type of deck. Still the power of the card is enough to try it out. Not sure If I would main this in place of Voice or if we should be running it along with Voice?

[card]Chandra's Pyrohelix[/card]: Im not a big fan of the card but i guess it's nice to have if decks with many x/1 start showing up.

Chandra, Torch of Defiance: Lets all welcome the best version of our favorite Planeswalker in the deck that would feel right at home. Though we will have to get a little creative with re-balancing the deck but for a card this powerful it would be totally worth it. I'm thinking we want anywhere between 2-4 of her.

Harnessed Lightning: Usually I would not pay much attention to a card like this but I do see some potential in energy cards, and this would be a solid card to go to if we tune our decks to take advantage of energy.

Hijack: This deck usually doesn't rely on attacking to win. Could be good if the new standard gives us some juicy targets to steal.

Lathnu Hellion: This card is fine by itself but becomes more intriguing if we decide to add energy to the deck. I think it might be powerful enough to run a few.


Spark of Creativity: Another interesting card but I don't think I will be using it all that much since it will never be consistent with it's damage dealing and we really don't need it's other mode all that much. Plus it should have been an instant.

Die Young: Just like with Harnessed Lightning, you should only consider using this in an energy leaning build. And even then there would be no good reason to use this over Harnessed Lightning.

Essence Extraction: Would be a decent card to try in more black focused decks. In combination with Alms, it makes for a nice life gain package.

Harsh Scrutiny: A nice SB card if we ever need it.

Live Fast: Draws and gives energy. Probably not good enough by itself but can be used to support more energy focused decks.

Lost Legacy: Another card that should make us consider going a heavy black route. The normal exile stuff is kinda boring but adding card draw potential makes this quite nice.

Midnight Oil: Another interesting card. The loss of life will end up hurting but the additional card drawn per turn will hurt them more. The other downside of having a small hand size wont hurt us too much either. Double black does mean you'll need to tune the mana for it.

Unlicensed Disintegration: A good kill cards for our colors that becomes better if we have artifacts in play. What's not to like? Nothing, we love cards like this. SB card minimum with MD potential.

Aetherflux Reservoir: I know this looks crazy but I think this decks ability to play multiple spells a turn might make this a decent fit for this card. Consider this more of an experimental card maybe SB potential against other aggro deck.

Bomat Courier: 1/1 with haste and a madness outlet? Don't think it should be ran here since at best we are looking at maybe 2-3 damage against some slower decks, and the madness ability discards the entire hand.

Deadlock Trap: Could be a decent SB card though PW generally don't give this deck that much trouble.

Dynavolt Tower: This would be the reason we would introduce energy to our madness deck. It really doesn't seem like we would have to go out of our way to integrate this card with what's already there. This is some nice energy fuel with the ability to let us dump excess energy for 3 damage.

Filigree Familiar: We aren't always the most aggro deck, and this card helps us in that MU. Good SB card.

Ghirapur Orrery: I feel like this deck would have no trouble of emptying our hand even if we are helping out the opponent considerably. This feels like another more experimental card. Lot's of potential if we can make sure we will be able to abuse it better than the opponent can.

Key to the City: This is the easiest artifact to add to the deck. All it requires is 2 open mana and a creature to target and we get a repeatable madness engine that draws us cards. The only downside is we won't be able to always make use of its full potential but targeting a Bedlam Reveler should win us games.

Aether Hub: We might want to run a few just for it's mana fixing.

Haven't been able to play much recently because of a change of schedule at work so most my free time is in off hours of the day. This is also about as far as we can take red at this time I believe, at least until the new set comes out. I don't think I'll be spending much time with playing and development with my new work hours.

Hey this list is more like it. I guess Collected Defiance over Exquisite Firecraft? I guess the versatility of Defiance puts it over the raw power of Firecraft? I also like the addition of Geir Reach Sanitarium and am ok with the bump to 23 lands and the additional black mana sources. Having 12 black mana is much safer.

I think the thing I'm most curious about is the sideboard. I love the addition of Tainted Remedy for the decks that rely on life gain to pull away like B/W but what does Weaver of Lightning side in against? I removed Castigator from my side but is it good to put back in?

Similar but different. He's running on 25 lands which feels like it's way too much for this deck. If you feel like you need more land you can bump it to 23 but any more than that feels like too many. Guess he had to get rid of Exquisite Firecraft. Don't like the inclusion of Fiery Impulse in the main either since game one we always want to be as aggressive and fast as possible.

About SB, I agree that is way too many 1:1 removals but I can't think of what else I can do. Would be nice if I could fit in 4 Regents and 4 Roars with the 4 Self Inflicted Wound but that is way too many slots dedicated for just that MU. I like Self-Inflicted Wound and it feels like a good 3-4 of is fine. Adding an extra land and 2-4 GDD would still leave me with plenty of space to mess with in the SB. I think I'll try that out. I always thought GDD would be good here. The other plan is to go small with 1-cmc instant speed removal for back up. Could catch them off balance and force them to make plays they don't want to make?

So the latest version of my deck I have completely moved out the Abbots and put in a playset of Alchemist in its place. There are pros and cons to both cards but I think Alchemist has a few more pros and it synergizes better with the deck. Though I actually like Abbot better in the Bant MU but Alchemist isn't bad there either and he's much pretty much better anywhere else.

For the rest of the SB im still trying to figure out what's best. Since Bant is still the biggest threat, I feel like dedicating lots of slots for them is fine. 4 Galvanic Blast, 2 Fiery Impulse, 2 Lightning Axe and 2-3 Self-Inflicted Wound. Maybe it is a little overkill and maybe there are better cards I can use but for now that's what i have. Luckily some of those cards can be sided in for different MU including Mono Red, Mono
White, B/W Midrange that use Kalitas and Avacyn, and U/W Spirits. Im going to start having Kolaghans Command to combat that artifact that gives players hexproof and reduces damage of sources by one. The last cards that round up the SB is Virulent Plague which put in a lot f work against many different decks.

@LazerBurn, I was seeing more and more of these deck list earlier this week on MTGO. I had a lot of trouble against them, mainly because my deck gives them opportunities to hit back hard. Also because Thunderbreak Regent and Dragons Roar is such a powerful pairing.

@dauntless, I cant see the article but that would be pretty sweet if he gives the deck a shout out.

The new format has new decks to watch out for but Bant still feels like the king and my deck sadly matches up poorly against it. Though my nut hands do trump theirs so at least we have that. I have been trying the 1cmc sideboard removal suite but sometimes we just cant keep up. I'm not sure how else we can combat Bant. The other problem with our burn spells is that they can get countered with Command, Avacyn, Spell Queller, and the indestructible spirit. I really wish we had a cheap splash-able instant speed neg x/x spell. Grasp of darkness is double black and would require the deck to run around 16 black sources in order to use that card kind of reliably on turn 2.

Also I think I am going to replace Abbot with Alchemist going forward. Alchemist is better in more situations in my deck than Abbot ever can be. Though there are a few situations when Abbot is better but for the most part and especially in this deck i think Alchemist is superior in almost every way. The only times I like Abbot more is when he get bounced to give that extra CA.

I haven't competed in a highly competitive event since more than a year ago in a SCG open when rabblemaster was in standard. All things considered I probably should be satisfied with that 9-6 performance but it felt like I could have done better. My last minute SB meddling was the most upsetting to me. I felt it weaken the already difficult Bant Company MU and didn't leave me with much for the other MU.

For some weird reason I decided to go with a Chandra, 4 Languish, 2 Thermo Alchemist and 4 Galvanic Bombardment as my last minute switch. Keeping only the 2 Virulent Plague and 2 Goldnight Castigator as the only holdouts from my original SB. The whole thing was just a big mess and I should have stuck with the original SB I had.

The problem with Languish in this deck aside from being double black, and costing 4 is that it's sorcery speed which makes it so they have a million ways to interact favorably with. I really think a bunch of 1 cmc instant speed removal is the way to go against them. I liked how Galvanic Bombardment performed since it does have good targets. Though there are the "awkward" times when you top deck it and you need that 3 damage to deal with something. But I think its scaling capabilities greatly make up for it. Chandra was bad almost all the time and would have never helped me much in most my MUs. I can see her doing ok in B/W control or midrange but I'm usually bringing Virulent Plague in that MU to shut down their token making capabilities. I also run the 2 Castigator for that MU but I never saw them. Plus they can get aggro and actually start to race us. I do feel that Thermo-Alchemist would have been much better to side in and possibly an additional 2 Collective Defiance since they are big against Kalitas. Thermo-Alchemist would be good against most delirium decks as well since they can survive against Lilly and against Kozilek's Return in that MU. Thermo-Alchemist are probably also good in the Bant MU as well though having them get bounce by Reflector Mage sucks but maybe it isnt that bad since it does mean they are tapped out for my next turn.

I won't get into specifics of each MU but more of a general summary of them.

I knew going in this GP that Bant was going to be difficult even though I didn't get to play test much against it before the GP. Game 1 I usually try to go my usual burn route but unless i draw into a good hand then it's gg. Collective Brutality is great here since discarding CC or command is a must to have a chance against them. Abbot is ok in this MU since it can provide us with the CA we need to keep up with them. You also don't mind having the Abbot getting bounced either since you can play it again later on for more CA. Abbot can also attack fairly well against them as long as you can give it prowess. The rest of the burn package is what is is. Game 1 it's all going to their face and game 2 it's going to their creatures. Since a good bulk of it is sorcery speed, you gotta use it at opportune times. In the future I think I want more 1-cmc instant speed removal to help combat them. Thermo-Alchemist would probably put in a lot of work since it blocks a lot of their creatures in the early game. There might be other better ways of combating Bant instead of trying to control them but I need more research. For now i think 1 mana instant speed burn is the best with. Self-Inflicted Wound does put in a lot of work as well.

Against B/W mid-range we need to play aggro/tempo against them. Game 1 we can generally race them fairly easily. They need us to stumble and they need to draw their life gain cards in order to have any sort of chance against us. They are too slow and many of their cards don't do much against us. The biggest threat in their decks are Kalitas, Linvala, Sorrin, and Westvale Abbey if they have the token list. And because they play Transgress the mind sometimes I find myself trying not to hold on onto any sorcery cards. Even if Abbot is Lilly fodder he is still ok in the MU mainly because of the CA it provides. I don't think CA can be understated . Though he might be ok to board out for game 2 for Thermo-Alchemist. Transgress the mind could end up being a solid board option for this MU since it will get everything that is important. Even though I lost a MU against them I feel good here because the game ended up really close and with me losing because I whiffed and possibly made some play mistakes. Shout out to Collective Defiance for being such a great answer to Kalitas. I still board in Virulent Plague because it makes Kalitas weaker, counters Lilly Emblem, and just makes token that much worse. Goldnight Castigator is good if you're on the play and can get him to come out on time. Sadly I never saw any of them in my 2 MU against them. Just make sure to save some burn in case they play Kalitas. Lava Axe could be good for the list that play the Angels.

I played against 3- G/B/x Delirium decks, beating out both the Sultai versions and losing to the G/B one. If I remember correctly, I think I made some play mistakes in my game losses to the G/B list. Both games I was able to drop him to 4 or less life before he drops a Kalitas and is able to stabilize and have me whiff my next draws. One of the games I drew 4-5 lands straight! The other game CB him only choosing the discard mode when I probably should have drained him as well. The two relevant spells he had that turn was I think a Transgress the Mind and a Tutor but I ended up taking the Transgress but on his next turn he tutored for Kalitas. I had two extra truns to draw into burn but I whiffed and he is able to recover. In this MU it might be ok to board out Abbot for Alchemist since they do play Lilly and can put blockers out in front of the Abbot. Virulent Plague is good since it makes Kalitas weaker and because many of their cards rely on tokens to win.

The easiest MU for me was against any of the other R/x decks. Especially against R/U in game 1 where our life gain and our discard keeps us out of range. Hitting them with a CB choosing both the drain and the discard is huge. Fevered Visions ends up helping us more since we are generally able to keep a low hand count. Game 2 they should be siding out Visions and bring it some counter spells. They can actually race us pretty good if they go first. Jace, Collective Defiance, Thermo-Alchemist, and the man land are their biggest threats against us. Luckily we have many different ways to deal with their creatures and our deck has the better draw engine. In the side I like the Thermo-Alchemist and Galvanic Bombardment to deal with their creatures.

And finally I played against B/U zombies which is a MU i felt bad against but mainly because I wasn't sure about the best way to play against them. I think game one we try to tempo and race them. Chump block their guys when we need to and deal damage to their life total. Though if they get their engine going they do get very difficult to beat. Worse is that they can recur creatures all game long and exhaust us in the long game. Our only chance for us is to get our nut draws as well and even then it might not be enough sometimes. For this MU we want Thermo-Alchemist to go in for Abbot since being able to repeatedly block is a whole lot more important than any sort of CA the Abbot will give us. Plus Abbott is Lilly fodder and Alchemist can keep dealing important damage all game long. Virulent Plague is another good card as well since it shuts down their token making cards.

The only high tier deck I didn't play against were any of the G/U/r emerge/delirium decks. From my experience in online and in paper playing against my buddies deck, I feel that our MU is strong against them. They don't interact with us early game so that opens them up to the full extent of our burn spells. The MU are a race and it's one we should be able to win. I was very disappointed I didn't get to see more of them and instead played so many games against Bant.

Anyways that's where I currently stand with the deck. Many people complemented the deck but I wanted to show everyone what it was truly capable of. Also winning some money would have been nice. For now I'll keep on improving what's there.

Just got back from the GP. Had a 6-2 record going into the last round but ended up with three losses. I made some very bad SB change at the last minute and payed for it. Kinda disappointed but I will try to come back tomorrow to salvage the day. I think I was hearing that people with 3 losses had no chance of top 8 so that's a bummer. At least this is giving me some real good insight in what changes i need to make. Way too many games going to time and the rounds taking at least a half hour or more after time is called. As for now im tired and need to get up early again.

Most current and up to date R/B madness decklist

[deck]Rakdos Burn

Lands: 22
4 Foreboding Ruins
12 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp

Creatures: 12
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Abbot of Keral Keep
4 Bedlam Reveler

Instant/Sorcery: 26
4 Collective Brutality
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Alms of the Vein
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper
2 Collective Defiance

Sideboard: 15
4 Galvanic Bombartment
2 Lightning Axe
2 Lightning Berserker
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Virulent Plague
2 Goldnight Castigator[/deck]


Against B/W control i'll usually cut off the play set of Collected Brutality for 2 Virulent Plague and 2 Goldnight Castigator. B/W usually plays on some kind of token strategy. Not to mention we auto lose to Westvale Abbey. The plan here is still the same after we board, try to play as many spells as you can and draw into more gas like the Reveler to finish them off.

Against Bant Company we want to be the control in this MU so I bring in 4 Galvanic Bombardment, 2 Lightning Axe, 3 Self Inflicted Wound. Out goes 4 Alms and 4 Insolent Neonate, 1 Tormenting Voice. Collected Brutality stays because it can kill some of their creatures and also take away their powerful instant and sorcery cards. Eventually I hope to clear the board and draw all the gas I need to kill them off.

Against most emerge/delirium decks I dont have a side board plan. I dont really know what would be good here. Though this is a very non interactive for me since everything goes to their face. Easy MU for the most part as long as I don't get screwed why my draws like the times i have then at low life and draw into nothing but lands.

One day left before the GP.
I forgot to mention but I have switched the 2 Read the Bone for 2 Collected Defiance and the results have been great. The card is so good when you can escalate it 1 or 2 times. And even when you dont escalate it the card isn't bad. A big upgrade to RtB.

Anyways, back to sideboard. I have been thinking about running 2-3 Goblin Dark Dwellers on the side. This deck is perfect for him because of all the 3cmc spells I run. GDD could come in against multiple decks and would provide me with good value against almost anything. Next card I was thinking about was not a specific card but an X-spell. Just as a 1 or 2 of? Or is that too cute?

@magicdownunder, probably because menace is so good right now. That would be my guess.

@dauntless, my mtgo user name is el_cucui, feel free to send a friends request. That goes for everybody.

Back to the sideboard talk, Yeah I think I should be fine in running 4 Languish since the deck can draw so many cards. That would change things quite a bit on the side, would probably replace something like Self-Inflicted Wound and another card. Other decks that I saw were a bunch of different color Delirium and Emerge decks, G/R ramp, B/W control, With most of those decks I feel like my deck is pretty solid, but maybe there are some things in the side im overlooking?

@dauntless Sorry the deck didn't work out as great for you as it has been working for me. Not sure what to say other than maybe I should post my matches just to give people a general idea of what it's capable of? But I think I need a new mic first since the one on my laptop isnt working with OBL Studio.

Those decks that you and LazerBurn have posted look pretty nice but sadly I am already committed to my list and I don't think it would be a good idea to switch decks with no time to even play test. Though after the GP I would be interested in trying them out to see how they compare. Like I said before the changing of the landscape has made conditions better for red decks in general to compete.

Back to sideboard talk, Languish is a card that never crossed my mind because of its double black mana requirement but this deck is probably capable of running double black spells since it cycles though so many cards. Even if I can't use the card it can always be pitch to get me to something I can use. Other cards that crossed my mind were Avacyn's Judgement, From Under the Floorboards, Burn Within, or any other of the x-spells since sometimes I end up with a lot of mana.

Just an update for the R/B madness deck I have.

Been playing a lot on MTGO these last few days in preparation for the GP. The main deck as is seems about as good as it's going to feel. But picking the right sideboard is going to be a challenge for me.

[deck]4x Galvanic Bombardment
2x Lightning Axe
2x Lightning Berserker
2x Goldnight Castigator
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
2x Virulent Plague[/deck]

My biggest concern are the Bant Company decks which is why I have a lot of cards in the board dedicated for it. I feel like one mana burn spells are the way to go for this MU. 4x Galvanic Bombardment can take anything of theirs early game and Self-Inflicted Wound is also good. Not sure if there's something better I should be doing? My buddies recommended 2x Ruinous Path but I don't think that card would be all that great since we are only running on 10 black mana. Even with the way the deck can cycle through cards it feels as if anything that requires double black is a bad idea.

Most of the other decks are a bit easier but would it be ok if I board something big like one of the Chandra's or Dragonlord Kolaghan just to give the deck a little bit more of an extra oomph. Anyways I can't do much testing for now but I'll be checking in and try to discuss on here.

Ok been doing a lot of MTGO and some paper playing. This past week we had a Pro Tour that featured a bunch of brand new decks that challenge the Bant and G/W decks for the top tier decks. Which is a big win for us because with the decline of those decks helps us get stronger. I'm not sure if the Portland GP will reflect this but either way I feel like we must be prepared for them as well. The eventual winner of Eldritch Moon PT ended being B/W control.

I am happy to report that the MU against most the new crop delirium/emerge decks have felt like they been in my favor. The easiest way to explain it is that they have very little ways of interacting with our non creature spell heavy deck. Since they don't put enough pressure early on we are free to fling everything to their face. By the time they start to put serious pressure on us, it is already too late. They really need us to stumble and for them to have a good hand.

B/W is another MU where is felt in our favor as well. They have a few more troublesome cards like Kalitas, Lilliana, Shambling Vent, Sorrin, and even Avacyn but that's only if they live enough for the late game. Since a lot of their spells are kill spells they usually end up with dead cards. The only meaningful early game interacting comes from Transgress the Mind and Duress which are both annoying for us but not too back breaking.

U/W Spirits is a match that felt 50/50 though i have only played against it in paper and without a side board. They can and will out-tempo us. The strategy here is to kill their dudes and try not to take much early game damage. Luckily most of our spells can act as kill spells and we generally should be able to draw more cards than they can in the long game. If I were to dedicate space in the side, 1-cmc instant removal spells would be huge against them and should tilt it more towards our advantage.

U/B Zombies is something I ran across online and saw my friend play today. I haven't played much against it but I don't think I manage to get a single win. Maybe I should just try to race? Either way I concede the match for now. Hopefully I don't run into it at the GP.

R/U burn the matches were close but i think having some life gain can swing things closer to our favor. Collected Brutality with escalate does a lot of work since their hands are filled with goodies. We still have to be careful but overall I feel the MU in our favor.

I think that's a summary of what I have played against. I did get open broadcaster but I am having problems with getting any sound from it. I might need a new mic but I don't know why the one on my laptop isn't working with OBS Studio. Would you guys be interested in me uploading my replays with no sound on YouTube? Anyways I like where the main deck stands as is, though I would like to test more against Bant. The million dollar question now is what should I expect at the GP? Will the new crop of delirium and emerge decks show up in great numbers or are people going to stick with the old reliable Bant Company.

I am going to look into posting my replays later on. Would it be better if i add audio commentary or is silence ok?

@ dauntless: I always find a useful mode with Collective Brutality. Against burn decks and other control decks escalating the card gives you so much advantage since both discard and drain life are pretty relevant.

Against creature heavy decks like WW or UW Spirits the escalate isn't as strong since most the discard doesn't hit their best cards but the neg 2 is something we want. The drain is not as big here since both of these MU you will assume the roll of control but having life gain against these decks is never bad.

Against G/W tokens the best thing I can discard is usually Dromokas Command which is ok but all their best spells are planeswalkers. CB is probably weakest in this MU and I should be taking them out for something like Virulent Plague and or Avacyn's Judgement. Sometimes I can use the neg 2 in combination with fiery temper to take down an Avacyn. This MU I haven't figured out what is the best to play them.

Against Eldrazi decks, the discard ranges from good to bad. Getting their counter spells or discard spells is always good. The neg 2 can take down smaller creatures which they usually run or be used in combination with your burn to take down 5 toughness creatures. The drain 2 in this MU can matter since it can buy you an extra turn. Usually in this MU we want to race and tempo them depending on if they play the aggro or control version of the deck.

That's what I have found in my testing so far. The other important thing to remember about CB is the escalate which helps you fill the graveyard with more cards to make the reveler cheaper. The 6 draw spells are fine especially if you look at things like Abbot, Neonate, and Reveler which all help you tremendously with cycling through the deck. I do wish that they made CB have duress as its discard mode and drain for 3 and neg for 3 but that would have been really OP.

Haven't tested out Collective Defiance yet but I don't know where to put them in. Logic would say swap them in for Exquisite Firecraft but I like that card too much.There's nothing else that domes for 4 to the head in one shot. Being able to hit planeswalkers for 4 is a big deal as well. Maybe the flexibly in this deck can make up for raw power?

Played a bunch today. Haven't really changed much yet since I haven't run into any bant company decks yet but I am really liking where the deck is at. I will be busy all day for work for the next two days and gone for the weekend so i wont get much playing time till Sunday. Like I said, been winning more games than i have been losing. Most my losses today were from miss clicks and me not playing as best as i could. The only changes I'd make is more 1-cmc creature removal spells in the side for those annoying spirits. The revelers really shine here and with 26 instants and sorcery spells they are easy to cast.

Is there anyway I can upload my replays just to give people an idea of what i'm talking about? I rather have you guys watch than have me explain this.

Here is the latest RB list i'm testing out:

[deck]Rakdos Burn


Lands: 22
4x Foreboding Ruins
12x Mountain
4x Smoldering Marsh
2x Swamp

Creatures: 12
4x Insolent Neonate
4x Abbot of Keral Keep
4x Bedlam Reveler

Instant/Sorcery: 26
4x Collective Brutality
4x Incendiary Flow
4x Tormenting Voice
4x Alms of the Vein
4x Exquisite Firecraft
4x Fiery Temper
2x Read the Bone

Sideboard: 15
2x Lightning Axe
1x Lightning Berserker
2x Sinister Concoction
3x Avacyn's Judgment
3x Self-Inflicted Wound
2x Virulent Plague
2x Goldnight Castigator[/deck]

Still a work in progress but it feels like I got something here. Sadly I haven't tested out much against the dreaded Bant Company but so far it's been more winning than losing. Could probably use some sort of combinations of Fiery Impulse, Lightning Axe, and Rending Volley in between the main and side.

The deck looks like it might be clunky but it is filled with draw and CA. The deck is super flexible on how you play as well, you can shoot everything to the face or to their weak creatures. The only MU I concede is that damn Harmless Offering deck. I haven't played against it with this current deck list but I had no way of interacting with it aside from the limited discard Collective Brutality gives. Though the older version of the deck I did run both Thermo-Alchemist and Stromkirk Occultist with some success. But I decided to up the spell count to make Bedlam Wanderer easier to cast.

Let me know what are your thoughts.

I played with the Thermo-Alchemist in the pre-release and he did manage to leave a good impression on me. While normally I hate most 0/3, the alchemist was able to put in some work. Though I initially thought that he would be too cute for standard, but apparently he seems to be alright. I do like that he is able to come out on turn 2 and block the annoying Sylvan Advocate and anything else 2 or less power. I remember Ravenous Bloodseeker provided the madness decks with a similar function in that it was able to block anything early on, but it also provided the deck with a repeatable madness outlet. The Alchemist at least is always able to get in for 1 point of damage every turn and usually for more.

Don't have an updated list yet but I will be looking to add the alchemist in the madness deck soon.

Having instant speen burn is so big but I agree. If you want to make space for Collective Defiance, then the place for it would be in the Fiery Temper slot.

I was able to get all the new cards i wanted from the new set last night (8x Bedlam Wanderer!!!) And I updated the deck. I played the newest deck I posted on here with some modifications. I removed the Dragons all together from the list because I wanted to test out Collective Brutality and because I wanted to further build around to Bedlam Wanderer. Everything else was the same as far as i remember it.

I played against my friends Bant Company deck that uses both Thalia, Heritic Cathar and Spell Queller. Both are very powerful editions to the already powerful deck. We played between 6-7 games and I only won 2 games. The deck showed some potential but I think I strayed too far off from that delicate balance it needs to have to be at its most optimal.

A couple of things to note. The new incinerate, even at sorcery speed is a very welcomed edition to the deck. Collective brutality is good. Getting to escalate for more even at the expense of another card can be huge and is a madness enabler which we can never have enough of. Also I think there will always be at least one mode in any match up that will be useful. I was usually able to cast Bedlam Wanderer for 4-5 mana with some draws on turn 4 and 5 and even cheaper sometimes. Decided to go against running the deck with more creatures and left the ones I thought were the most essential.

Anyways I know it's not much but that's all I got for now. Hopefully I can test some more later on when I'm off from work.

Yeah I can see why you might be concerned to run Hanweir Garrison in a meta that can deal with it so effectively. I also expect to to a resurgence of the U/W spirits, and the continued dominance of Bant Company, G/W tokens, and Mono White Weenie. Man I hate white. Feels bad not being a top deck for standard.

Oh yeah I can see why it wouldn't work as good in that version of the deck. He is definitely missing out on those essential madness enablers. Without them most of the madness spells have to be played at actual retail price instead of getting them at a discount. The problem like we've discovered in this thread is you have to go the full on madness plan in order to make best use of it. Going with a RDW type of deck sort of dilutes that strategy and at that point you are better off going mono red.

Luckily red finally got enough tools to make a competitive deck. I'm liking all the list for the mono red decks you've guys have posted but wheres Rabblemaster 2.0 in the list? That thing was house the last time around and the new one seems to be almost as good. It might be a mistake not to run them. Hell, I'm thinking of making space for Hanweir Garrison in the Rakdos list. I really can't wait till tomorrow. Hopefully they will have all the cards i requested tomorrow at the shop and can play some games against people in between rounds.

I'm not sure i'm sold on Otherworldly Outburst just yet. I mean it does make it far easier to attack into situations where our creatures are going to die and trade with something else but wouldn't we rather just use a pump spell on something that is unblocked? And in that case why not use something like Titan's Strength? Maybe I'm wrong here.

I know i'm going all over the place but there's just way too many good cards to discuss and I'm really hoping to find something for the GP.

Anyone remember the deck list Tom was testing out? We had already agreed that you're better off running mono red here if you go creature heavy. I still think you can successfully run a r/b madness deck.

I did play in a few pre-release events this past weekend and got to test out some of the new cards i was curious about. Stromkirk Occultist won a game for me after I re animated it, and used it to go all the way on my opponent. And even though it was a limited environment I can see it performing just as well in standard. Fury Blade Vampire was better than expected as well. At first I was a bit nervous since it was not as flexible as Bloodseeker but 4 power trample from a 2 cmc creature that helps enable madness is not a bad spot to be in. I can see any variation of red running these two cards.

Last two cards I played with was Collective Brutality and Bloodhall Priest. I was a bit underwhelmed by the priest since it pretty much needs to be Hellbent in order to activate its ability. Even though we are a madness deck, we usually don't always want to empty our hands. It was big in limited but in Standard its probably whole different story. Collective Brutality was always good when I had it. All 3 modes are relevant against all different kinds of decks and hitting more than one can be huge. In standard, I could see it always being able to do something relevant.

For the GP i still plan on sticking with Rakdos but I will also test out other Mono Red builds to see if they are powerful enough.

I have to wait till the 1st for the online release day for Eldritch Moon. Can't play any paper tournament till the Portland GP in August. I will be taking Rakdos Madness or some sort of variation to that event. That gives me less than 2 weeks of prep time. Hopefully that's enough time to get me into high level form again.

I agree that both bant humans and spirits will probably be the more stronger decks going in the new standard. They got way too many goodies for G/W and anything in those colors should be holding strong i think. White Humans get Thalia, which i'm pretty certain it will see play in almost anything that can run it. We might see a rise in B/G delirium decks seeing as how they got some good stuff too, between getting Grim Flayer and Murder, I can see them competing more. And ramp has new Emrakul which they should be able to cast a little faster and kill us with its dumb mind slaver ability. Doesn't look like control got much to be happy about but who knows how the new standard is going to play out.

Obviously blue is the best color for drawing but i think the madness deck I'm playing does a decent job of drawing and putting instant/sorcery spells in the grave yard. I can easily see this being cast on turn 5 or 4 and later in the game getting him almost always for 2-red.

I'm not a big fan of the new Ball Lightning mainly because it is over costed and it is very easy to deal with. And in the end, it just doesn't do enough for us especially compared to the dragon which cost the same.

Distemper of Blood, it's really bad to pay the real cost of the spell and ok to pay for madness. Could be good for decks running more heavy on creatures. Either way I don't think it will do enough. Might as well run Titan's Strength if we want a pump spell.

Furyblade Vampire is sort of interesting. On the one hand, it allows us to attack stronger than the Bloodseeker, but on the other hand it is not as versatile as a Bloodseeker. I think it's good enough to test out.

I do agree that there are many good cards that lend themselves quite nicely for R/x decks. Should be a more fun standard than the last one at the very least.

Here's a quick mock up of an Eldericht Moon Rakdos madness deck I might play.

[deck]Rakdos Madness

22 Lands
4 Foreboding Ruins
12 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
2 Swamp

15 Creatures
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Heir of Falkenrath
3 Bedlam Reveler
4 Thunderbreak Regent

23 Instant/Sorcery
1 Titan's Strength
4 Tormenting Voice
4 Incendiary Flow
4 Alms of the Vein
2 Read the Bones
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper

Sideboard
3 Lightning Axe
3 Avacyn's Judgment
2 Goldnight Castigator
2 Collective Brutality
3 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Virulent Plague[/deck]

Like I said in my previous thread, I am swapping out all 3 copies of Olivia and 4 copies of Bloodseeker. I'm hoping that Between the Neonate, Heir, Tormenting Voice that there is enough discard outlets to be able to madness a few spells and hope that I wont miss the Bloodseeker's versatility. Incendiary Flow will take it's place and it should be a good upgrade.

I really want to try out Bedlam Reveler and had to cut Olivia to make room for it. The deck now has 23 cards to make him cheaper and I should be ok with running 3 of him. While I like Olivia for giving us the ability to close out games in a pinch, often times she's just dealt with very efficiently and does nothing. So I figured why not give the new guy a shot. Keeping the land count to 22 because we are greedy and we got plenty of card draw to help us shape our hand.

The one of Titan's Strength was something I don't think I mentioned earlier but I replaced it for a land since I wanted to be greedy and have something that can capitalize on the ability of our creatures to get in for damage. I guess this would be a card you can easily cut out for an extra land if you feel the need but personally this deck has been doing good on 22 lands. That's pretty much it for main deck. Hopefully the deck wont suffer on having less madness enablers and not having a creature with an ability to close out games fast under the right circumstances.

For the side I removed 2 Sinister Concoction for 2 Collective Brutality. The concoction has been underwhelming for the most part. And it's probably redundant seeing as how the side already has 3 Lightening Axe. Collective Brutality also gives us something to use against control which we didn't have many cards in the board dedicated to the MU, works ok against creature decks, and provides another madness outlet.

There are still many cards worth testing out but I think the new incinerate and creature are the best from the bunch. I could be wrong and just be wanting to cram that guy in the deck but I really feel he will be a great fit. That's what I'm going to be testing out for the new standard. At first I was kinda bum out but now I'm pretty excited for all the new stuff.

I don't have a specific deck in mind yet since there are a couple of new cards I want to test. New Incinerate is going to be an automatic 4-of but everything else will get tested. In order to make room for incinerate i'm thinking of dropping the Olivia's from the deck or the Ravenous Bloodseeker's.

Some of the cards that I really want to test out are Bedlam Reveler. Like I said earlier, the Rakdos deck is his perfect home. We can easily fill the yard with instants and sorcery spells to make him cheap. Though he might have to take place of either Olivia or Thunderbreak Dragon. I like the dragon better than Olivia. But Olivia combined with another flyer usually spells game over in 2 turns.

Collective Defiance might be worth testing in place of Exquisite Firecraft. There's not many times in the format where the "cannot be countered" matters. Having the option of being able to hit creatures for the same amount of damage as Firecraft is nice, paying 1 mana to deal 3 damage to the controller is something good as well. Missing out on 4 damage to an opponent is kinda a big deal though.

Colective Brutality is something that might be regulated as a sideboard option against control.I wish it did -3/-3 to creatures instead but it still might be ok against other creature decks. The drain for 2 is nice against both aggro and control.

Stormkirk Occultist offers repeatable CA but I just don't see her working all that well. Idk but most creatures in the madness deck have some sort of evasion and don't need much help to get in. But her effect is powerful enough that makes this worth taking a look at. Most like takes the place Olivia, or the Bloodseeker in testing.

Lupine Prototype seems like something we might want to try but I don't think this is a good deck for it. As the deck is currently constructed, we don't really discard our hand really fast but instead just use discard to cheat things out. Sure we got the ability to go fast sometimes but that kind of play style requires us to change the deck from where it is going.

Stromkirk Condemned is double black therefore automatically eliminated unless we switch over to B/r which might be worth taking another look into. This card would be perfect for a heavy creature based vampire madness deck.

Bloodhall Priest reminds me of a mini red titan which was a really good card. This card does have potential and I think it might be worth testing out.

Anyways I will make a quick list when I get home.

Would it have been too much to ask for instant speed burn? I guess i'll take it. Either way this will be a welcomed addition for red that's for sure. Harmless Offering by itself creates a whole bunch of wacky scenarios. And the new mythic dragon seems kinda interesting as well. I'm also a big fan of the Bedlam Reveler for the Rakdos deck since that deck tends to be more instant and sorcery heavy. Then there's also a new 2-drop vampire that enables madness for free that might be worth checking out. It is finally looking like red might be in a good spot this standard. Though other colors are getting lots of love as well.

Been doing some 2-man tournaments with my rakdos deck with some good results. I think I finally am getting the hang of playing against Humans and Bant. With humans I try to keep them down to 1-2 creatures of the field and go overhead with my flyers. And with bant I am throwing everything to their face. Rakdos should be able to out-tempo Bant most of the time. I could post some of my MTGO matches to show people the many different ways the deck can play if that would interest anyone.

While the 1-drops might not be as explosive as they were in previous standard, I do like how all of them still have some use even after the early game. In this deck it does seem like you need a minimum of 8 1-drops since early game damage is usually the best opportunity to get in easy damage.

I like the 2-drops quite a bit here since they are good in the early game and have good impact in the late game. No complaints with those.

That's just my red mage mindset of the game. You're right when you say that's not the case here. Even with my madness deck, I cant come up with a consistent way of dealing 20 points of damage by turn 4. The quickness for red is not there and it has forced us to play to its other strengths.

And 22 land is fine even for your curve. You got a few mana dumps and both the shaman and abbot like having mana so you can cast those extra spells you get from them. That's what I run for madness.


Congrats on your FNM result. Very Impressive in not dropping a game against the higher tiered decks but disappointing to lose against green ramp.

I would lie to say i'm excited for the new standard but so far i haven't seen much love for red. Im not sure how i feel about the new vampire you showed. Feels like an excellent bargain if you madness her and at regular cost shes fine. Almost like a mini red titan.

I only asked because the deck looks so slow. I know that speed isn’t part of reds thing this standard, but looking at your main deck list, I had to question how tough it is for you in general to win against the top decks in standard before you side board.

Even when red isn’t fast, I would like to think we want to end the game ASAP because in the late game, they usually have the advantage since at best a R/x deck will be trading 1 for 1 most the time and because our spells dont have the same impact as theirs in the late game. I will say that the sideboard is really good here.

Yeah I guess the new Thalia doesnt help Humans kill at a faster rate but she's very powerful against both control and other creature decks. I could at least see her on the side if not in the MD.

Nice write up. How were your matches before side board?

Congrats man!

I can't wait to read your report.
I'll be most interested on to hear about your humans MU. Those bastards get another stupid powerful card in the next set!

I think a 2/2 split with Zurgo and Castigator is fine with your land count.
Even post board you are going to want a creature on turn 1 and Zurgo helps with that. And Zurgo doesn't completely suck in the late game because of his dash ability lets him dodge sorcery speed removal. with 3/1 castigator/scab split might be a bit too top heavy for my liking. Even though castigator is great vs. control.

That human MU is such a nightmare. You definitely want to see removal in that opening hand and just up to draw into it long enough to stabilize. Is that even possible against that deck? Seems like they got gas for days. Maybe I am siding out poorly.


And for control I like the wolf. I like pretty much like anything with haste or card advantage. The great thing about the wolf is that he is good at almost any point of the game against control. Though with both Castigator and the Wolf on the side is probably way too many cards to devote to control. Especially with humans SB cards already taking up a large portion of the side.


As far as other MU goes, how is everybody experience with RG ramp or any of the other Eldrazi decks? I dont have many games against those decks but so far they have been able to beat me in close games.

Oh yeah thats what i was alluding to on my last post. If I take the R/b deck and go the small route, it's probably better to go on mono red and take full advantage of what the color has to offer. I was just trying to justify sticking to black because of my bias towards the color.

With the last build of my R/B deck i was trying to find a good balance of madness cards and cheap creatures but the madness cards dont really play well without good support. I will admit that I am not good at deck building and I might have missed something in my last few builds to glue everything together into the ultimate monster. I did find the most success with the build that uses a play set of Torments and some RtB for the extra card draw you were talking about. Being able to draw into gas is what wins it games. The only other creature I want to try out is Abbot. And he will be most likely taking the space of the Bloodseeker slot since that is the easiest place to make the switch.

After so much trial and error I think that is where the deck wants to be. Which will be good enough for me to take into MTGO tournaments soon. Now whether it can win said tournaments is another question in itself

@ MDU: If this deck gets the nut draw against us the its pretty much over no matter what we do. My sideboard is good in hate with Avacyn's Judgement and Self Inflicted Wound the help out. Though Avacyn's Judgement becomes useless after a few turns. I also have few Lightning Axe in the side to help out.

@ dauntless: I been playing the Rakdos version and still haven't tested out both shaman or abbots yet. I suppose those cards do give us a fighting chance against WW but those guys can go super aggressive almost all match up long. Yeah i slowly realized that we are the control against them since they were out racing most my decks no matter what i did.

Anyways here is the latest version on the Rakdos version

[deck]4 Foreboding Ruins
11 Mountain
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Swamp

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Village Messenger
2 Zurgo Bellstriker
4 Dragon Whisperer
4 Heir of Falkenrath
3 Chandra, Fire of Kaledesh
2 Olivia, Mobilized for War
4 Thunderbreak Regent

3 Draconic Roar
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper[/deck]


In order to go with the smaller creature list I had to drop all copies of Alms, Bloodseeker, and Tormenting Voice since the synergy is no longer there and those cards become less effective. At this point I might even ask why go black? Well Heir of Falkenrath is still great at giving us a creature that can go all the way by itself and she helps with lowering the cost of Fiery Temper which is nice. Olivia is good but she is easily dealt with. Black also gives us access to other cheap removal like Ultimate Price which hits mostly all the important stuff. On the side board both Virulent Plague and Self-Inflicted Wound are great to have for any token or any g/w decks.

So far been liking this latest version but feels like it still needs more work. I would like to test for abbot and shaman next but I have been liking Dragon Whisperer. Though Abbot might be a better choice. The 10 one drops are all decent and having that many almost ensures we get a one drop on turn one. At this moment i'm testing out Chandra just to see how she is and so far I'm liking her. With most of our curve being lowered, she's not that hard to flip. I guess if I were to try abbot and or shaman they would slot in in the Zurgo, Dragon Whisperer, or Chandra spot. Went with the decision of going with 22 lands because of greed and because the deck has a lower curve. And finally stayed with the dragon for obvious reasons.

Small update.

I haven't take the deck to any actual events yet but instead been doing more play testing in the tournament room.
Been playing around with a couple of modifications to the deck but so far i haven't noticed anything way different with the deck.

Currently I'm testing the going small approach and it's been good. I wouldn't say better but just different.

The biggest revelation so far is that this deck no matter what version of it i try is really weak to white weenie. Such a terrible match up for red in general i would think. Maybe the R/U version might have better luck but i cant see other versions competing. That deck is just way too stupid synergistic and strong against this strategy. Even with a tailor made sideboard white weenie feels like it's too strong. Other match ups that feel hard are W/B/x and G/R ramp, but those decks at least feel like there's a chance. CC decks and G/B feel a bit more on our side but can still lose if not careful.

Small update on my development for the rakdos deck,

I tried going for the heavier dragon splash but it was an utter mess. It was a small modification to the deck list i had last posted but I guess it made enough of a difference for me to notice.

[deck]2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
4 Foreboding Ruins
12 Mountains
4 Smoldering Marsh
3 Swamp

4 Insolent Neonate
4 Heir of Falkenrath
4 Ravenous Bloodseeker
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Dragonlord Kolaghan

3 Tormenting Voice
4 Draconic Roar
2 Read the Bones
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Fiery Temper
[/deck]
I removed all the Alms and Olivia from the deck, I also believe I removed 1 Tormenting Voice since the deck has fewer madness cards. Then I added 2 dragon lands to take the land count to 25, 4 Draconic Roar, and 2 dragons.

While I didn't play test all that much, I tested enough for me to see that the deck was no good. The deck slows down quite a bit without Alms providing support and having 25 lands. I did feel a little better using Draconic Roar so that was nice at least. In the end it just didn't have enough fire power in the early game for our dragons to finish it by the time they came out.

The next step if we want to continue down this path is to fully change this to a proper midrange deck. Which would mean going away from the madness route and running more creatures in the early slots. But before doing that I'm going to try lowering the curve and running a few more 1 drops like previously suggested.