Dies to Removal

Since I'm dense when it comes to complex rules interactions, how would Howl of the Horde interact with Chandra, Pyromaster's ultimate?

I wonder if a 1-off Howl in Burn would be profit. 2 cards, 4 mana, equalling 9 damage (from whatever bolt) seems like a simple enough combo...except the critter condition. The goods news is that it didn´t need to connect. Just curious.

Anyone think there´s a possibility of a Delver'esque UB Tempo deck now? With all these good ca giving Bestow critters Lazav is looking more and more like St Traft and the MBA curve itself is nothing to complain about. Dimir has 8 cantrips which is a pre-req for such a deck imho.

Here´s a skeleton:

4 Gnarled Scarhide
4 Pain Seer
3 Herald of Torment
3 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind


4 Quicken
4 Cremate
4 Thoughtseize

13 Counters and Removals to fit the meta

21 Land

Vs Aggro: aggro-control up to 3 cmc. Race and Remove.
Vs Midrange: remove/counter & copy their fatties with Lazav.
Vs Control: build up Lazav with Bestowed critters after the initial race.

Quicken + Thoughtseize is fun if nothing else...

Flamespeaker doesn´t want Haste. How would you use the cards you draw through him beyond land drop?

As I dont have possiblity to post in Mono Black Agro Thread somewhere for clan members I will post it here:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... 14/welcome

[deck]
Land
20 Swamp
4 Mutavault

Creatures
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pack Rat
4 Agent of the Fates
4 Nighthowler
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

Other Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Wring Flesh
3 Underworld Connections
2 Hero's Downfall
3 Gift of Orzhova

Sideboard
4 Dark Betrayal
3 Duress
4 Doom Blade
4 Pharika's Cure
[/deck]

Guy won Trial with this deck. What is interesting for me is the fact that this deck uses powerful heroic card in Agent of the
Fates, which is fine on his own (3/2 Deathtouch is fine), however it gets much better with powerful bestow in Nighthowler (in Block Constructed you can see the power of this guy, where you bestow it on any crappy creature and it needs imediate answer... and then you have nighthowler back).

Why I am interesting in this? Because We get another powerful bestow creature in Herald of Torment, so we dont have to run (imo) crappy Wring Flesh or (less crappy) Gift of Orzhova to trigger heroic.

This deck also have reach in form of Gray Merchant and Underworld Connections, which should be important in Black dominated metagame.

I´m more interested in the Gift of Orzhova as a black devotion enabler instead of the control build black has now. There´s a look of an agressive Black "Red Devotion" deck here. If there is a decent enough curve and heroic guys it could build up and end with Gary similar to what red does, but more agressive than current black. Pain Seer into Gift would be nice.

Anyone free to give feedback / editing on my CFB bng review article?

Wife is a doctor in english linguistics and works with improving text quality in articles. Professors come to her before they publish etc. I could ask her for the future if you´re interested.

@Izzet Burn: Electromancer + Firedancer + Essence Backlash is hilarious, but xmas land. Better card economy and sweepers could be a good thing. Shock has the advantage of creeping through the odd turns alongside a rebated Strike or Bolt. but still, only 2 damage.

Why am I not as sold on Juzam Junior (Herald of Torment) like everyone else? It´s something about his slow impact and high cost vs Phoenix or Reckoner. The Bestowing Pain Seer plan looks cute, but believing that it´ll happen at 5 mana without presenting any juicier targets than Pack Rats (who really should scurry away ill fast) seems like wish thinking. I get that it's evasive and the flying ranks are thin atm, but both of blacks new removals hits it. Red may be waning due to the same thus lowering the number of Lightning Strikes. Yet, still...

My favourite is Spiteful Returned. You pay 2 and will cause at least 2 damage unless they spend a resource on it.
What´s not to like by an aggro player?

Yarpus, both YP$ and Firedancer md seems overkill. Pyromancer in side for control and Firedancer main mehaps. Then you´d fit some ca.

Well, if the "23 lands" didn't include Mutavaults I´d feel like a total [insert random dunce allegory]. Counterflux is sweet, but the manabase just doesn´t support more than a random 1.

Good point on Jace. There´s something iffy about Augury + Chimera. It looks sweet yet smells like a trap.

Izzet Burn attempt 2:

4 Goblin Electromancer
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra´s Phoenix

4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Bolt of Keranos
4 Turn//Burn
1 Counterflux
4 Jace, Architect of Thought

23 land

H*ck, it looks FUN at least.

Bolt of Keranos makes me wonder if an Izzet Burn deck is possible. Something like:

4 Goblin Electromancer
4 Satyr Firedancer
4 Chandra´s Phoenix
2 Spellheart Chimera

4 Shock
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Bolt of Keranos
4 Turn//Burn
3 Steam Augury

23 land

That´s a load of scry and draw on rebate. The lack of Boros high power burn is exchanged for manipulation and speed (as in manareduction).

Agree on Z's assessment on the final spoiler list, but Mogis. I believe he´s a contender out of the board in Rakdos Aggro vs control and midrange.

I think Satyr might be a md card in Boros burn to be exchanged for YP$ vs control. Add 4 Skullcrack, cut an Oracle or two for a Chandra or two and shift YP$ to sb in your shell redthirst.

No scrying will make it harder to hit 5 lands to give Pack Rats a reasonable chance. Otoh you really need bait to give Pain Seer a chance which is the only thing looking like it´s going to help towards hitting those lands. Somehow that feels like the problem. You need more bait to allow your star players to shine. My first reaction is that I´d ignore your 1 drops, answer your 2 drops and wait for D.Demon. Thus I like Pedros 28 creatures target saturation plan better.

Another route is to lose the 1 drops and exchange Herald for Nyx-Smith. Now you´d have 16 drops that demand immediate answer within a 4 mana curve. The strategy being answering whatever they do and present a single game overtaking threat at the time.

4 Pack Rat
4 Pain Seer
4 Satyr Nyx-Smith
4 Desecration Demon

4 Thoughtseize
4 Magma Jet (for scrying)
...

4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Triumph
x Mutavault
x
Mountains
x Swamps

I guess I am more going down the route of 'Good cards deck' now, but that´s what you get for a penny...

Orcale of Bones look ok'sh for MonoRed iterations, but there´s something annoying with being forced to cast stuff. A Red Mages gut reaction towards orders I guess. Not to mention that it messes with combat tactics.

I don't think Orcale is strong in a traditional Rx list which mixes aggressive creatures with burn, its more for the Burn orientated list which want to point everything at dome anyways (like Boros Charm and Helix MD).

Good reasoning. Hasty 3/1 + Helix or Charm is nice value.

Orcale of Bones look ok'sh for MonoRed iterations, but there´s something annoying with being forced to cast stuff. A Red Mages gut reaction towards orders I guess. Not to mention that it messes with combat tactics.

Not a fan of the creature mode and don't think it compares to Spike Jester. They both do 3 damage to an opponent on a clear board, but Jester does it one turn faster and trades with more - and I'll take likely trading up over guaranteed 2 damage to an opponent in most cases. Not really sure how good the Bestow is... my initial gut response is "not good enough", though.

Hence SR being the second choice. That said I think Dos Rakdos other 2 slot choices all are debatable for different reasons: Shred-Freak to weak, Ashley mana dependent, Pack Rat susceptible to the new black removal and slower. Trading is good and coveted, but this is also the deck featuring Chandra with Falter plus loads of removal.

Spike Jesters little brother unexpectedly showed up:

In Dos Rakis T2 and 4 it´s the second choice over Jester and Exava (bestowing whatever they left on the table), but still very reasonable. Pack Rat will be tested against this guy.

I guess my list on UB Devotion stands, but yet, wtf with the mill all the time? Sooooo dull

I just hope Phenax is a win-con card; like passive mill or sonething so I can be ultra lazy.

Discard when you play a guy. Pack Rat ftw!

That UB thing again. I got thinking of Devotion instead and the MonoB shell again. Lazav [mana]BBUU[/mana] + Underworld Connections [mana]1BB[/mana] = online Phenax. The two cogs to get him animated is a Hexproof guy who alings well with your Dimir suite of counters and removals, plus a hard to remove card draw. Seems like a pretty safe bet to get a huge indestructible guy with an additional upside (probably discard of some sort).

You´d wreck MonoB and Aggro with the Scatters (plus something). Control would have little and nothing that effects but sweepers to touch your devotion. And boy are they in trouble if you hit their Aetherling with Seize.

Say:

4 Pack Rat
4 Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
4 Desecration Demon
4 Phenax

4 Thoughtseize
4 Dimir Charm/Pharikas Cure/Bile Blight/Drown in Sorrow
4 Essence Scatter
4 Hero´s Downfall
4 Underworld Connections

24 land

All supposing
Phenax isn´t a completely worthless...

I guess T could've stood for Tires Kait, as My father used to be a race mechanic for Volvo But nah, just surname acronym.

Some more dryrunning and thinking about UB Tempo Heroic later.

I think Agent is a trap. He´s a slow Clock on the spot in the curve and adds a utility that his own colour doesn´t exactly struggle finding.

A bigger trap is overloading on Heroic. E.g. there may be more creatures that are worth untapping with Triton Tactics. Pain Seer is an obvious candidate.

Those 2 thoughts made me consider implementing heroic in a another shell and go from there rather than consider it a whole new archetype. MonoB could be a candidate with some shifting around. Instead of MonoB's main strategy of removing opponents stuff until landing something to boost Devotion followed by Gary or go for ca and Pack Rat swarm it´d be a more all round synergy approach.

-D.Demon gains value from this similar to what Agent does, but better. When they sac a guy to keep DD down we can untap and attack with Tactics (or block). Essentially the same
thing, but we get a +1/+1 on our giant flier in the process.
-Artisan now has a copy target irrespective of opponents deck.
-Torment of Herald should exhange Spectre. It´s a underused spot in the curve (I´m not in 100% agreement that the card draw is worth it) and its Bestow to boost Artisan and Pain Seer fits well.

Thus I´d want to experiment with:
Artisan of Forms
Pain Seer
Torment of Herald
Desecration Demon

Thoughseize
Removals/counters fit for the current meta.

Herald of Torment is an enabler and half decent creature on curve, but otoh bestows quite late. Heroic just want something simple like Spectral Flight.

Infatuation is a Heroic Enabler if nothing else in standard.

Maybe there's a UB Heroic deck? Agent of Fates, Artisan of Forms, Triton Treasure Hunter? Triton Tactics is good and untaps Pain Seer...

Tap Island
Triton Tactics targeting Agent of Fates and Pain Seer
You sac a guy, I draw a card
Block and eat your guy
Etc.

Mmmm UB tempo....

More ruminating on this. Not Heroic, but....

Thoughtseize/Removal/Counters + Lazav would be similar to what Artisan + Tactics would with the bonus of Hexproof and would almost get Phenax online (supposing he does something relevant. Guessing discard when X). It could be a UB Devotion deck with the aim of landing Lazav and Phenax like MonoB want to land something plus Gary, but with the big difference that when we UP D.Demon we get one for ourselves.

Brainstorming on UB Tempo: looks tempting and we haven´t seen Phenax yet. Curve of Pain Seer//Artisan, Agent//Treasure Hunter and Duskmantle Seer is a sh*tload of utility.

Artisans ability to copy whatever they drop removal is a top notch wincon. The big question is what enabler? Triton Tactics is good, but feels reactive in a colour suite that has no issues with removal. A majority of Hidden Strings and an additional evasive guy to "carry the message"? (Judge´s Familiar?)

Say hello to Erebos little helper:

Fate Unraveler [mana]3b[/mana]
Enchantment Creature - Hag (R)
Whenever an opponent draws a card, Fate Unreveler deals 1 damage to that player.
3/4

Underworld Dreams on legs. I like it

UB looks bad. I win!

Searing is sb material vs aggro. I love how it makes the "who´s the beatdown?" question even more relevant.

Pain Seer and Nyx-Smith incoming. Which do you answer? I think he has potential in Rakdos aggro with all the Haste around. Target saturation ftw.

Xenagos is a beast, but his buddies still dies to removal. There might be a rise in Shock again as everyone and their mother will want to ramp into him.

UB control looks...doubtful when looking at Mogis. Eat 2 per turn and hope your Aetherling is the faster clock? G'luck with that.

In a target saturated environment like Rakdos plethora of Haste critters this guy just feels like a contender...might be totally wrong too.

Phoenix, no thx. Mogis is sb material vs. Midrange & Control.

Pain Seer is to clunky. A bear that draws a card if he survived attacking, opponents removal, plus you also most likely need removal yourself to get him through T3, meaning you lock up mana. That is a long list of stuff compared to Bob who just need to duck 1 turn of removal.

I´m more excited about Rare creatures with Tribute. That common one is close to being good.

Omenspeaker isn't constructed playable. Actually think about what the card does for a moment. Do you really want a 1/3 no abilities?

I'd go:
4 Frostburn Weird
4 Young Pyromancer

For your early creatures. Both are super well positioned right now against any aggro or any control deck. Because your not always going to be aggro, you want more flexibility in your creatures; Satyr only aggros; Omenspeaker only blocks ~ they're at a crossroads.

Spell load out I'm less sure on sorry. Without Snapcaster the deck has some trouble making up CA; so maybe the discard Phoenix + Chandra plan is best? I do think you want the full 4 Magma Jet and 1 Mortars (for random blowouts).

No thanks to Pyro. He creates guys with no purpose here beyond chumping and
slow pinging. He´s to much of a defensive maybe. Omenspeaker is the first carrier of the mantle (as she can´t get 2 for 1 with it) and pseudo remover with the inflaters she finds, thus does she work two ways; agressive as well as defensive. Similar to when Augur carried Pike. Pyro just stays around hoping for a good draw.

Weird is a better alternative mehaps, but the deck smoothing Scry offers is very important to keep the tempo. Red doesn´t do that much, but suddenly it can, so best not ignore imho. That´s the major plan.

Spells are definetly hard to pick together without some more testing.

Thanks for the feedback.

About UR.

I´m thinking Satyr, Omenspeaker and Chimera (+ 2 odd Phoenixes) plus a bunch of tempo tools and red Giant Growths a´la Titans Strength and Dynacharge. It will fuel Chimera and alongside Quicken and Dragon Mantle you have quite a number of deck smoothing tools. The whole thing is an odd red tempo idéa: the inflaters recycle themselves or at least scrys, so it´s a sort of red counter thing where you allow them to chump and kill their expensive midange or late game guys with critter + growth or if they can´t or wont block, well... Else you simply tempo with V-End, Charm or Magma Jet. Approaching end game Charm or Augury digs up a Chimera and fuels it even more in the process.

8 cantrips + 18 Scry's + 5 filters and Chandra. Does it look bonkers?

[deck]
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Omenspeaker
2 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Spelleater Chimera

4 Dragon Mantle
2 Dynacharge
4 Quicken
4 Titan's Strength
3 Izzet Charm
3
Magma Jet
3 Voyage´s End
1 Chandra Pyromaster
2 Steam Augury

3 Island
4 Izzet Guildgate
4 Steam Vents
9 Mountain[/deck]

About the midrange deck, Boros or Rakdos, is there not space for a single red god?

-He needs 4 more Devotion to "animate" = 2 Phoenixes/Reckoner+Pyromancer.
-Phoenixes, Hammered mountains & Elementals turn into free Shocks.
-Zealot, Reckoner (and Elemental swarms) loves the "all creatures get +1" effect, see Carytid, which opens up for more burn to the dome aka recycling Phoenixes aka free shocks.

All armchair theory. Just curious to what you think.

I´d love to so some development on the midrange Boros deck zem. In that vein perhaps Steam Augur is a possible fit in midrange (because of the multi threat nature) than Control (which wants are easier to predict). Enter the bluffing game of 1-4.

Steam Augury is crap as you're the one burdened with harsh decision, opponent has it easy.

I pile 1 in the left and 4 in the right. Which one do I get?