Search found 18 matches

by Checkbox
Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:39 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

also axioms build a system, they dont, however, define every system ever. Yu can have more than one axiomatic system
This is true. You've only addressed one of my illustrative points, however.
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:44 am
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

Singleton is generally accepted as the norm, an "axiom" if you will.

Consider any branch of mathematics; if you keep asking "why" far back enough, you will approach the axioms that we all just take for granted; the fundamental assumptions that allow us to do anything and everything we do with mathematics (if you don't know set theory, this might be a bit beyond you, idk). Without those assumptions, mathematics is nothing.

Singleton is an assumption/axiom of cubing as long as I've ever heard about it. It seems a much easier and more interesting rule to follow than to start making multiples; I accept it as a given (and therefore, not arbitrary) because that is how 99.999999% of cubes I've ever seen or heard of are run. There are probably more reasons for going singleton that I don't have the time or patience to go into or figure out, but there's that.

At the most basic level, saying "I want
more ramp" and turning to a card already in your cube seems extremely lazy to me; I think it is flat out lazy cube design to have to use the same card multiple times, rather than finding the right card to balance your green spell section the way you want, or whatever. You can whine and say "but none exist that are as good as ramp spell X, so I just wanna use two", and I'd say "just stop being lazy and use a different ramp spell; the game has over 17k cards (approx), surely you can find one that suits your needs that you aren't using". I suppose this goes back to the variance argument a bit, but that's just how I feel, the principles I use to build my own cubes.

And yes, a large part of it is the question of: if two rampant growths are ok, why not 3? Why not use two lightning bolts and two savannah lions and etc etc etc. That pandora's box of subtle probability nuances is not something I'm interested in opening; and that's ok, because by sticking to the singleton rule, I don'
t have to.
by Checkbox
Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

Explain to me, then, why its not arbitrary. You can say "I want more ramp", then add another Rampant Growth to your cube, but why is 2 the correct number of that particular card? Why not just have 5 Rampant Growths in your green section and no other ramp? The nuances of the probability distributions at that level of cube-building are such that there's no reasonable way to ensure you're making the decision you want to be making.
by Checkbox
Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:28 am
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

I don't buy the "balancing" argument at all. It only impacts balance if the cards
you have in multiples are ones of above average card power. There's really no issue to having multiple, say, Divinations in the same deck, though it's obvious that multiple Jace the Mind Sculptors would be a problem. I think that if you are having problems with multiples and balancing power level it's because you are including multiples of the wrong cards.
But the power difference between Divination and JTMS is much larger than any two cards in a traditional cube.
The example given isn't what you need to attack in my argument. Tell me how two lightning bolts in the same deck is too good.
That's not the problem; its certainly not too good (cube can be whatever you want it to be). My real problem with it is why would you add another lightning bolt to the cube and not add another Savannah Lions? Why not two Fact or Fictions? Why not two Griselbrands? Where is the line?
Don't be a fucking cone. Add more copies of cards to decks
that are lacking in the areas they are lacking. Like, your problem is completely generated in your mind and is easily solved with a little thinking and/or applied science. I bet you just sit at traffic intersections and wait for all the other cars to leave, too.
In my mind, I'd rather stick to a highlander rule than to have to make those arbitrary distinctions.
by Checkbox
Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:43 am
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

I don't buy the "balancing" argument at all. It only impacts balance if the cards you have in multiples are ones of above average card power. There's really no issue to having multiple, say, Divinations in the same deck, though it's obvious that multiple Jace the Mind Sculptors would be a problem. I think that if you are having problems with multiples and balancing power level it's because you are including
multiples of the wrong cards.
But the power difference between Divination and JTMS is much larger than any two cards in a traditional cube.
The example given isn't what you need to attack in my argument. Tell me how two lightning bolts in the same deck is too good.
That's not the problem; its certainly not too good (cube can be whatever you want it to be). My real problem with it is why would you add another lightning bolt to the cube and not add another Savannah Lions? Why not two Fact or Fictions? Why not two Griselbrands? Where is the line?
by Checkbox
Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:11 am
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

There is a list on Ugly Sally.
by Checkbox
Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:25 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

I don't buy the "balancing" argument at all. It only impacts balance if the cards you have in multiples are ones of above average card power. There's really no issue to having multiple, say, Divinations in the same deck, though it's obvious that multiple Jace the Mind Sculptors would be a problem. I think that if you are having problems with multiples and balancing power level it's because you are including multiples of the wrong cards.
But the power difference between Divination and JTMS is much larger than any two cards in a traditional cube.
by Checkbox
Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:39 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

I've seen that one on Salvation, and it looks sweet.
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:02 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

Modern Masters? They're probably developing it like a real set.

Also, college is prime cubing time, bro.
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:55 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

Well, adding a storm mini-theme to your traditional cube is quite a large step away from your earlier claim of "adding multiples can help things like green ramp or black discard", which I thoroughly disagree with, for reasons I've stated a few times above. :P
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:27 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

Obviously the highlander rule is an arbitrary one that we choose as almost an axiom of cube design - singleton is sacred by consensus (you could make a similar argument for axioms in mathematics; you can keep digging deeper and deeper, but eventually you have to assume some things otherwise you have nothing to build off of and nothing interesting to say on the subject). There are obviously many reasons (that you yourself agree with) as to why singleton is a good idea, and obviously its accepted by enough people to be considered the "default" or "sacred" as you've put it.

The reason I don't like Infect, Storm, Arcane, etc is that they aren't mechanics that are flexible; they are among the most narrow mechanics that WoTC has printed. One of the most valuable things in a cube staple is the fact that it might be playable in a large number of decks (Sol Ring, for example). Obviously, there are other cards that
don't work in many decks, but are very powerful in the decks they belong in (Desolation Angel) that also get run in many cubes. People have varying ideas as to where this "line" is to be drawn, and cubes vary based on where their designers draw this particular line.

Despite this, Storm is almost universally panned by cube designers everywhere; Even on the MODO cube, one of the main arguments against their storm package I hear is that "its obviously insane when you assemble the deck, but its extremely difficult to do and requires a lot of luck in the card pool, as well as no one else being on the Storm plan." Storm has been tried in the singleton environment, and adding multiples wouldn't solve the core problem with the mechanic - More storm cards just means more cards in the cube that can only be played in one deck. A large part of the beauty and fun of cube drafting is looking at your packs and sculpting a playable archetype out of the cards you drafted. Cards in cubes often serve
different functions in different decks and environments; a card with storm is really only playable in the combo deck that wants to "go off" and win the game with the card.

Infect suffers from the same problem; even if you add multiples of infect creatures and infect support, the infect cards are only good with the other infect cards. Infect creatures are not trying to kill your opponent the same way "normal" creatures are, and therefore putting them in the same deck together is very, very bad most of the time. Infect worked in its limited format because it was one of a small number of archetypes playable in the format, and there was the support for it in the commons and uncommons of the format; Cube has a much larger pool of playable archetypes available to it, but unfortuantely due to design, Infect is just not a mechanic that fits well within the traditional cube environment.

This isn't to say that, in a Mirrodin-based cube or something, Infect couldn't be powerful - I think
there are many different "themed" cubes that are possible and playable and even quite fun that might not follow the highlander rule. I do, however, think that in a traditional cube environment where your available card pool is "all the good cards in magic", the highlander rule plays a very important role in the format. I am very OK sacrificing Storm, Infect and Arcane playability (mechanics that are extremely narrow) for a more versatile, varianced and ultimately more rewarding draft format in my cubes. I don't think its nearly as difficult to draft a bunch of infect cards and throw them together as it is to sculpt a playable archetype in a traditional highlander cube.
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 7:38 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

1 Faithless Looting helps graveyard strategies by being in the cube at all - obviously if it wasn't there, graveyard strategies would be hurt a bit. But the difference between 0 --> 1 is much greater than the difference between 1 --> 2. My point is how large, really, is the difference between 1 --> 2 and 2 --> 3? I argue that (even if only in principle), the amount of variance you lose by adding a 2nd copy of the same exact card is not worth the amount of "help" you give a certain strategy by doing so, when you could just keep the variance the way you want while also making your cube and drafts more interesting by just incorporating other cards that "help graveyard strategies". The cardpool is so vast that you can pretty much support whatever archetype you want in your cube without having to resort to doubles.

To address your last post: Going from 0% of a card to a non-zero percentage of that
card/effect is a much more significant increase than going from 1/360 to 2/360.
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:32 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

And I just showed that having the singleton rule as a "sacred cow" makes for much more rewarding cube-building, drafting and deck-building experiences (which I guess draws a bit on the variance argument, but oh well).

Also, you've failed to argue my main point - why just two faithless lootings? How does the difference between 1 and 2 Faithless Lootings in a 360 card or larger cube actually affect "graveyard strategies" in any tangible way? Why not three? How can you be certain that 2 is the number that gives you the exact amount of support you want? How is the decision between 2 and 3 at that point not almost arbitrary?
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:04 am
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

You also say multiple copies of cards can lead to rewarding experiences - what is rewarding about having to use the same card twice rather than finding another card to fill that role? Which is more interesting - a green ramp section filled with rampant growths or one that has a rampant growth, a farseek and a natures lore? Which of these truly leads to more rewarding drafting and deck building experiences?
by Checkbox
Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:01 am
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

You haven't really said anything about how ita detrimental though - with the card library as large as it is at this point in magics history, there's no reason you should have to use the same card twice. Before evolving wilds, they had fetchlands of all different varieties - and how arbitrary would their choice of running two have been? Why not 3? 5? The nuance between a second and third copy of a terramorphic expanse in a cube 360 cards big or larger are far more arbitrary than the highlander rule is detrimental.
by Checkbox
Fri Mar 15, 2013 9:12 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

[quote="poggydude » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:55 pm"]How is attempting to answer a question detrimental? I can see immediatelyacting upon an answer being detrimental but just performing analysis is rarely detrimental.

Basically I'd simply give double copies to an effect that is needed in multiples but not a blowout.
Ie rampant growth, certain black discard spells, etc. This will certainly make cube design harder but it can very likely lead to more rewarding experiences.

Note that i do not plan to do this (yet) for my C/U cube(my only cube outside of my proxied parnell/aintrazi custom cube) but it is certainly not a rule that i see an advantage in clinging to. The way my cube is designed i dont see a need to break the rule but if a reason to break it comes up i can see myself breaking the rule[/quote:
1z8becof]

The attempt is detrimental because we are not set designers - There is no answer to this question that isn't arbitrary like "I want more rampant growths in my cube because they didn't print enough variations on the effect". I feel like that is more of a cop out than designing your cube in such a way that it doesn't need more rampant growths. I think adding a second copy of a card that is already in there is akin to making your own cards in that fashion; if you want more ramp, add more ramp. There are enough cards in the cardpool that you shouldn't need to turn to one card twice for the same effect.

You say it makes the cube design harder, but I think having to use the same card twice is actually easier than having to find another card to fill the role you want. MaRo always says - restrictions give you more design space and make things more interesting; taking away those restrictions just makes it easier on yourself, and shouldn't be the answer.
by Checkbox
Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:07 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

the variance argument makes sense, i disagree with the balance argument because it is a cop out. If done conservatively it seems like a good way to improve the cube in a way that strictly adhering to the singleton rule does not allow.

Some effects need duplicates where they dont exist. Once the rule is being more detrimental than helpful it needs to be ignored
It is not a cop out at all - that sort of thing becomes so subjective that there's no way to truly balance it. What cards or effects deserve to get multiple copies? Why them and not others? What is the criteria for determining which archetypes get boosted by multiples and which don't? How does this affect pack distribution?

I don't believe its being detrimental at all - I
believe that trying to answer these questions would be detrimental.
by Checkbox
Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:14 pm
Forum: Maze of Ith (Cube)
Topic: Cube Noob Q&A
Replies: 44
Views: 20661

Gonna give this a shot but I'll probably have a lot of questions.

Singleton -- Are cubes always singleton? It seems like the majority of the time they are, why is that?
The main reason I do it is for balance issues; as soon as you start introducing multiples of a certain card into a cube, balancing becomes nigh-impossible. If you run 2x of a certain card, why not run 3? What makes 2x of this card ok but 2x of that other card overpowered? With a highlander rule, cube-building removes these issues of balancing that set designers have to deal with then they put cards in various rarities for drafting purposes.

The variance thing is interesting, but not one I thought of when I decided on a highlander cube design.

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