Completed GamesDies To Removal Mafia - Game Over (Mafia Win)

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Post #921 by hamfactorial » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:25 pm

Finished up with my re-read from the beginning of day 2.

I was thinking earlier about Suga's decision to replace Z back into the game. In the interest of game integrity and balance, I don't think Suga would have a player replace in and give him a bunch of role information that put him or his team at a clear advantage.

We know that old Z was town Kait, the doctor, so there are two possibilities that I see from the mod's perspective.

1. Z replaces into a town role with no advantage (vanilla)
2. Z replaces into a mafia role

Possibility #2 gives a ton of new information to newly-scum Z, as he would now know the alignment of 2-3 mafia players, as well as every non-mafia player. I assume that Suga hasn't set up 2 separate mafia teams in a game this small.

From a mod's perspective, the least disruptive choice is to replace Z into another town role. I assume this has happened.

Perhaps it's dangerous to
modgame (got me mislynched in Ragnarok), but it's on my mind.

Is my interpretation valid?

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Post #922 by DroppinSuga » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:28 pm

Vote Count:
zemanjaski (1)- stardust
hamfactorial (2)- imopen2, wraith223

With 9 alive, it's 5 for a lynch
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Post #923 by Stardust » Tue Jan 07, 2014 10:32 pm

hamfactorial wrote:Is my interpretation valid?

No. Every scum player "knows the alignment of 2-3 mafia players, as well as every non-mafia player". townZ had no information that wasn't public, so he could have replaced into any role.

Are you trying to town slip? You're a bright guy, and I can't believe anyone could have come to those conclusions. You know how this game works, right?

Also, full town/scum list please.
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Post #924 by hamfactorial » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:01 pm

I'm good at math, not interpreting passive aggression. What's incorrect about my mod analysis? I posit that Suga wouldn't replace Z into a mafia role because he'd have an advantage from town interaction prior to death.

Town:
Freedom
G_R
Z
Wraith
Raspy

Null:
Mogadishu Jones
imopen2

Scum:
Stardust

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Post #925 by Wraith223 » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:10 pm

hamfactorial » Tue Jan 07, 2014 5:01 pm wrote:I'm good at math, not interpreting passive aggression. What's incorrect about my mod analysis? I posit that Suga wouldn't replace Z into a mafia role because he'd have an advantage from town interaction prior to death.

Town:
Freedom
G_R
Z
Wraith
Raspy

Null:
Mogadishu Jones
imopen2

Scum:
Stardust


Why would you hold Freedom at Town with all the odd to pure scum posts? What about Stardust is sum to you? Simple break down will be fine.
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Post #926 by hamfactorial » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:20 pm

Stardust's dogged pursuit of Z makes him look scummy to me. I read Z as town earlier, so when I saw Stardust on him I assume malice.

Also he said mean things and I'm sensitive :gonk:

Freedom went along with Z's plan to test raspy's unlynchable claim at the start of day 2. Either they're both scummy and I'm being fooled by them acting in concert, or he's super town. Note his good posts and analysis of the bus driver ability after night 1.

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Post #927 by Stardust » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:21 pm

[quote="[url=http://diestoremoval.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=171307#p171307:2e1h33b2]hamfactorial » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:01 pm[/url:2e1h33b2]":2e1h33b2]I'm good at math, not interpreting passive aggression. What's incorrect about my mod analysis? I posit that Suga wouldn't replace Z into a mafia role because he'd have an advantage from town interaction prior to death.[/quote:2e1h33b2]
What advantage would he have? It skews his play regardless of town or mafia. If he replaces into a town role, he can do a better job of proving it by holding to his former (confirmed town) reads. If he replaces into a scum role, he needs to work with those reads as well. Usually replacement with dead players is avoided for this reason.

Anyway, just take my word for it that it does happen. Captain Murphy replaced into a scum role after dying as town in Checkbox mafia.
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Post #928 by Stardust » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:30 pm

Time to review rezombad's interactions since I believe he's dead scum.

rezombad » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:48 pm wrote:Vote Lord_McDonalds

RVS votes LMD (replaced by scumZ) waaaaay after RVS is over. Later unvotes and plays is as a reaction gambit. Lots of WIFOM surrounding this, but could have been used to distance.

Grills townZ for a bit. Asks GR a throwaway question. Asks me a real question.

Trolls townZ with haikus and simpson pics. Answers Pie's question in detail.

Back and forth with Wraith. These guys are definitely not both scum. He even asks me about Wraith... trying to get me on board maybe?

Kills townZ.

Considers going after rcw after I start doing so and discusses rcw's claim a bit. Carries on not believing the claim later on.

Votes
freedom for WTF, then unvotes.

Makes a bad case on me and refuses to answer my questions. Repeatedly.

Continues to call rcw scum.
rezombad » Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:04 am wrote:
zemanjaski » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:19 pm wrote:Must be nice to do nothing, badly fuck up, then go back to doing nothing knowing you won't be lynched or NK'd. Can you at least try to help?

Is this you trying to set me up for a mislynch later? Or are you just being petty because you got shot for being scummy as fuck?
What about rcw being unlynchable makes me suspicious?
Here's a solid interaction with scumZ. Replied to later in some detail.

That's it.

Lots of interaction: Wraith, rcwraspy, Stardust
Some interaction: zemanjaski (LMD),
freedom
Little or no interaction: Jones (DocLawless), hamfactorial, imopen2, G_R


I'll do the reverse interactions tomorrow.

I've also concluded that imopen must be town. Like, 99% based on what happened last night. This is conditional on me being town (which I obviously know), but unless someone else can explain why rezombad died, I'm going to assume imopen is town.
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Post #929 by ( G_R ) » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:44 pm

Not to defend zem, but the reason I, GR, think it's a good idea to put rcwraspy's ability to the test (toDay and even toMorrow) is because he has stated that it is not an x-shot thing, but "forever". If he's town he has no reason to lie about it, so putting it to the test sounds like a sure win, because if he's town and saying the truth nothing will happen except the thread grows some posts and Suga has to post a vote count, yet if he's scum and he's lying we just lynched scum. :shrug:

I believe that there's still a reasonable doubt (lol) that he's town because no cop has surfaced, why would he be a miller? So he's either lying about it or rezombad was the cop, or the cop is not saying anything why would you do that cop, just tell us who to lynch or not to lynch.

Mcdonalds » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:20 pm wrote:That explains why people keep coming over for chicken nuggets

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Post #930 by Stardust » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:50 pm

It's Day 2. The cop shouldn't come forward without a guilty until at least Day 3. Don't know why you'd expect them to.

But yeah, you're right that it made sense to test rcw's claim once he claimed fully unlynchable. What about before he claimed fully?
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Post #931 by Jack » Tue Jan 07, 2014 11:52 pm

Well, if we have a cop that survives the Night, we're pretty much sure to win the game if we lynch scum toDay.
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Post #932 by Wraith223 » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:49 am

Wasting a day/time on Rcw is dumb. Ham has now started talking more. I suspect he was lurking on purpose and Stardust and I raised enough stink to get him to post more.

Rcwraspy, why so quiet? Who do you find as scum?
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Post #933 by zemanjaski » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:37 am

Wall of text coming later, but I think the scum team is Stardust, imopen2 and an unknown (ham or freedom are still my suspects).

Until then, Unvote, vote Stardust
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redthirst » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:20 am wrote:1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem


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Post #934 by ( G_R ) » Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:19 am

Stardust » Tue Jan 07, 2014 4:50 pm wrote:It's Day 2. The cop shouldn't come forward without a guilty until at least Day 3. Don't know why you'd expect them to.

But yeah, you're right that it made sense to test rcw's claim once he claimed fully unlynchable. What about before he claimed fully?

IDK, I thought a townie result, plus the cop claim would narrow even more the lynch pool, specially since the game was as dead as it was. But, I guess you're right, not enough reason to out themselves yet.

RE: rcw, even if he didn't claim fully, a townie would have claimed "I'm a one (two, three, etc.) shot unlychable", if it were the case and he felt it was needed.

Mcdonalds » Thu Jun 25, 2015 11:20 pm wrote:That explains why people keep coming over for chicken nuggets

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Post #935 by zemanjaski » Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:30 am

Alright, I don't have as much time as I would like, so formatting has to give way for the sake of completeness. Enjoy the text wall.

Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:58 am wrote:
zemanjaski » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:47 pm wrote:Pretty sure he confirmed he wasn't a 1 shot days ago so I need to check that

Still waiting for this too.

The fact that he hadn't confirmed is the reason why your actions surrounding this was scummy. Especially after rezombad's lack of flip and imopen's claim, there was no reason to push rcw. 1) Confirming town for no reason can actually harm the town since it gives the scum clearer targets, and 2) If he was 1-shot, what then? That would not have
confirmed him scum. If he was 1-shot, lynching him without behavioural analysis to back it up is at best awful play, but much more likely scum motivated.


Reason 1 is total bullshit and you know it. SCUM ALREADY KNOW WHO TOWN IS. What is the Town motivation for lying about the ability? There isn't a scenario where raspy witholding the info ends up helping Town; he looked so scummy because of the way he played it, we would likely go after him again at some point anyway. Or scum kills him anyway after seeing that he cannot be lynched and we (Town) benefit from having a day with a stronger Town voting block. There is also the possibility that we have a watcher role, and that person could have watch raspy and provide Town more information that way. Your reasoning is additionally faulty because scum tried to kill raspy anyway* so he was already a clear target, before I pushed the test.

You need to explain the scum motivation for reason 2. You have continually said &
quot;such and such behaviour is scum" without explaining. We're mostly noobs now, tell us why. Then counter-argue G_R's point that (a point I have made previously and that you have ignored) that Town would not withold that information because it is useful for Town. Explain.

You've still not addressed my request for an explanation of why you don't see anyone else pushing for the test (we had to get enough votes to test the lynch afterall) as scummy. You're tunelling to the exclusion of all others, which is not in keeping with your play yesterday. That's a huge red flag for me. You seem to think that my strategem as scum is to draw as much possible attention to myself as I can?

Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:30 am wrote:
zemanjaski » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:47 pm":
7fn7my6t]You unvoting is irrelevant. I was following your arguments, not your vote. You unvoting doesn't make your argument that Pie might be scum disappear.

Here Z is talking about my unvote and why it shouldn't have swayed his opinion. A simple unvote shouldn't have, but Z saw the same thing in Pie's townie rage as I did (and said as much shortly before trying to get him lynched). My unvote combined with Z's own read should have swayed his opinion. Instead he got bloodthirsty. 100% serious, this is by far the scummiest thing that has gone down all game. By far. There is no way Z is town.


Again, you don't explain why it is scummy. I explained my reasoning repeatedly, which you continue to ignore (is that a scum tell?). If it is so scummy, why didn't you say anything at the time? Others did - DocLawless and Freedom both questioned me about it extensively. G_R was in on it too. But they're not scum right? It's only scum if you say so yes?


[quote][quote="zemanjaski » Thu Dec 26, 2013 6:33 pm wrote:It is bizzare that when it comes to Freedom you expect me to listen to "strong" players, but when it regards Pie, I am expected to make up my own mind independant of the discussion of others and ignore those same strong players. Which is it Stardust? Can I listen to others or not?

Explain the inconsistencies in your argument.

There is no inconsistency. You can read freedom however you want to. My point is that he can read Pie however he wants to. Reading Pie as town was certainly possible (you did so yourself). There was no deadline. Pushing freedom to vote Pie showed your thirst for blood more than anything else.
[/quote]

Just like you're pushing Ham to vote for me now, going so far as to bully him. You're scum right?

That fact is SD, you made a huge error that you've
refused to actually admit to. In one breath you say it is scummy for me not to follow the advice of other players; and in the next say it is scummy when I do. It cannot be both as you claimed. What lies at the core here is you trying to control the narrative of the discourse, and I simply won't allow it. That's why you want me gone, because you don't like what questions I am asking. You're basically doing all of the bloodthirsty acts you accused me of, which is amusing in itself.

Stardust » Wed Jan 08, 2014 2:36 am wrote:Jones! You're confirmed town, good job. Wanna help me out here?


He actually isn't, not at all. The player he replaced acted Town, but that wasn't enough to confirm him, and it certainly doesn't extend to a player who has done nothing so far. I want everyone to pay attention to this cry for help -
that isn't how Stardust played Day 1 at all; Day 1 Stardust presented logical arguments and allowed others to make up their mind. Day 2 Stardust whines for help when she isn't getting the results she wants and tries to bully inexperienced players. We're seeing appeals to emotion instead of appeals to logic now.

Other points of concern:
- its only scummy if I want to test rcw's claim. G_R proposed to do it again, but that's fine, as it is only scum when I do it.
- does anyone else find it strange that Stardust now considers Rez likely scum despite being the player who stated that Rez waas "95%" likely Town after the day kill? Thing is, Stardust needs Rez to be Town for her claimed "we can make a mislynch and still win" scenarios; she doesn't even mention the possibility that Rez isn't scum (which he won't be, 95% of the time). which misleads Town substantially. SD is the most experienced player and would be fully aware of how important Rez not revealing an alignment would be;
yet no mention. We need to consider that Rez was Town.
- SD has spent all of toDay tunelling me, after barely interacting with me yesterDay. From straight out of the gates, she had run lines of argument that ignore the contribution and encouragement of others. We've already seen that her argument that testing raspy is incredibly weak, so the rest has become this manufactured "we should kill him anyway; we can make a mistake and still win". That's not the position of someone who can make a real case, that's the position of someone who is desperate.

You're not dumb Stardust and we all know that, so what I am going to keep coming back to, throughout your posts, is how forced and strained your logic is to try and sway people to side with you against me. The reason that you're not having the success toDay that you did yesterDay is for this reason - you're arguments aren't grounded in the same logic and credibility as they were previously.

You seem afraid. You've made multiples lines of
argument that seek to silence or control my contributions, and that isn't Town behavior at all.

You're scum.
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redthirst » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:20 am wrote:1 - Drunk, surly zem
2 - Nice, modest zem
3 - Bragpost zem
4 - Confident and funny zem
5 - Condescending jerk zem
6 - Self-aware zem


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