LEGO Movie Mafia - Game Over - Town Win

[RedNihilist]

Yeah, but a dayroleblock? Is that an actual thing? Doesn't matter, we can burn that bridge while we cross it.

The point is, he made a probably verifiable claim. No hanging Jones today.

Yup.

[Mogadishu Jones]

like...did i miss something during my skim? do i have to actually read something more than that az has no idea how our town roles work?

Thats what I'm screaming.

[Mcdonalds]

Wow a lot of shit has happened, I'll make a catch up post today.

Lies.

Unvote
Vote CM

Seems oddly random but alright

[hamfactorial]

I'm annoyed by lurking, I want him to contribute.

[Mcdonalds]

I agree with the sentiment, of course. We can't lynch Jones because he's made such a strong/verifiable claim. He's either town or hanged scum tomorrow

Agree with this sentiment, entirely

[Mcdonalds]

I'm annoyed by lurking, I want him to contribute.

Fair but ask him a question FFS

incidentally

@CM, what do you think of Azrael, Jones, and Dechs?

[Azrael]

Yeah, but a dayroleblock? Is that an actual thing? Doesn't matter, we can burn that bridge while we cross it.

The point is, he made a probably verifiable claim. No hanging Jones today.

In this game, that's a thing.

[Dechs Kaison]

Yeah, but a dayroleblock? Is that an actual thing? Doesn't matter, we can burn that bridge while we cross it.

The point is, he made a probably verifiable claim. No hanging Jones today.

In this game, that's a thing.

Are you saying that's one of your invention ideas or part of your role?

[Dechs Kaison]

I'm annoyed by lurking, I want him to contribute.

Fair but ask him a question FFS

incidentally

@CM, what do you think of Azrael, Jones, and Dechs?

He shouldn't need to ask a question. We're how far into day one and CM has posted twice. Once in RVS and again to say "Oh, I'm going to catch up."

At this point, I really don't care whether he's scum. I'd be willing to lynch him because even if it's a mislynch, it gives us a wagon to analyze. I'd much rather mislynch a townie who doesn't contribute than one who
does.

[Mogadishu Jones]

How does it give us a wagon to analyze. It's be a lynch of a lurker in a nine person game, a lynch you spearheaded under the guise of lynch a lurker. What will you gain analysis wise from having people follow your own train of thought?

What you are describing is a contrived attempt to push a mislynch. I am happy with my vote of you since I'm going to shoot Az tomorrow. Gg scum.

[imopen2]

I'm annoyed by lurking, I want him to contribute.

Fair but ask him a question FFS

incidentally

@CM, what do you think of Azrael, Jones, and Dechs?

He shouldn't need to ask a question. We're how far into day one and CM has posted twice. Once in RVS and again to say "Oh, I'm going to catch up."


At this point, I really don't care whether he's scum. I'
d be willing to lynch him because even if it's a mislynch, it gives us a wagon to analyze. I'd much rather mislynch a townie who doesn't contribute than one who does.

This is piss poor logic. You can't say he's a lurker and then say his lynch would provide information for analysis. As town, this really makes no sense on page 3 of day 1

[imopen2]

Page 4 I guess

[imopen2]

like...did i miss something during my skim? do i have to actually read something more than that az has no idea how our town roles work?

Yeah, you missed the part where people take deep breaths and use logic to analyze things.

Occam's razor prefers the most simplistic solution. Your scenario requires me to:

1. Be scum on a team without builders.
2. Think that all the townies received conventional roles.
3. Miss reading the vanilla PM
4. Miss reading Kpaca talk about building things

"Being dumb", isn't a simple solution to explain it,
it's a complicated clusterfuck requires four separate conditions to all be true. It's also completely out of character for me, as even Kpaca's admitted.

That's opposed to the simple explanation of a townie who mistook the guy who tried to counter-claim Kpaca as someone who *could* actually (and was trying to) counter-claim Kpaca, by claiming to have a special affinity for vigging people.

This doesn't make you any less scum in my mind.
1. No, that's not a requirement of your slip. There could be scum that are builders and scum that are not, I would have no idea.
2. This is also not true. You could believe that some townies have conventional roles. The fact that you don't know how the roles work is the problem.
3. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you read the sample pm or missed the sample pm. Either way, you slipped and then backpedaled.
4. I doubt you missed what kpaca said, but that doesn't mean you understood it, or what DK said in response. DK was
not "counter claiming" per say, he was questioning the speed at which kpaca claimed his day vig would be ready (a legitimate question that I asked myself when I read kpaca's claim).

I'll know soon enough whether you are lying or not, assuming kpaca doesn't end you first.

[Azrael]

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=253164#p253164:1otliqx0]Mogadishu Jones » Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:15 pm[/url:1otliqx0]":1otliqx0]How does it give us a wagon to analyze. It's be a lynch of a lurker in a nine person game, a lynch you spearheaded under the guise of lynch a lurker. What will you gain analysis wise from having people follow your own train of thought?

What you are describing is a contrived attempt to push a mislynch. I am happy with my vote of you since I'm going to shoot Az tomorrow. Gg scum.[/quote:1otliqx0]

How many people are you going to try to kill off this game for bad logic tells?

Dechs is town. Scum wouldn't counter-claim you the way he did, the lurker frustration is genuine, if misdirected. Dechs is a classic inexperienced townie, easily one of the top two or three most obvious townies in the game.

[Dechs Kaison]

Thank you.

...I think.

[hamfactorial]

Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

Inventions. The PM calls them inventions, but until they're built, to me they're just plans.

This whole thing annoyed me yesterday when it happened. I asked Azrael a direct question, which Dechs chose to expand on instead of letting Azrael answer it.

Then a few posts later, Azrael answers like this -

[quote=&
quot;hamfactorial » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:55 pm"]
Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

Well, now I do. Originally, I thought it was something that came to him with his role PM that set him apart.

For myself, I've got a number of ideas of things I'd like to make that are fairly unusual and tailored to my own specific play needs. I'm curious to see what the mod will say back about them, how long some might take, but I've been holding off on any submissions until I have more information on what the town might need, or in case we decide it might make to come up with a Master Plan of some kind to coordinate actions.

For instance, we could potentially require scum-spects to submit a request for an item that simply notifies everyone in the town that "everything is awesome", so that we can verify that they didn'
t do anything else that night ability-wise.

There's some pretty nifty things we could do with roleblocks, tracking, and watching, too, but I'm suspicious that the mafia may have some level of broad-based immunity to our inventions in line with the flavor of the movie and also for balance purposes, so I'm a bit less enamored of plans that require truthful results and/or successful actions.[/quote]

Why did DK feel the need to chime in when I was clearly asking for Az's interpretation of DK's wording? Perhaps he's running interference.

Also, Az's plan is anti-town. Committing valuable town building time to a "everything is awesome" device instead of powerful individual creations seems foolish. Historically, scum can submit a kill and use their night action simultaneously. Requiring townies to press an awesome button instead of using nighttime devices can only protect the scum team if there are traditional investigative town roles in the game.

[Dechs Kaison]

Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

Inventions. The PM calls them inventions, but until they're built, to me they're just plans.

This whole thing annoyed me yesterday when it happened. I asked Azrael a direct question, which Dechs chose to expand on instead of letting Azrael answer it.

...

Why did DK feel the need to chime in when I was
clearly asking for Az's interpretation of DK's wording? Perhaps he's running interference.

Apologies, that's a mistake on my part. I wasn't thinking of it as a direct question to Az. I read it more along the lines of "Dechs, your wording is fucked up" and I tried to clarify.

[Azrael]

This doesn't make you any less scum in my mind.
1. No, that's not a requirement of your slip. There could be scum that are builders and scum that are not, I would have no idea.

That IS a requirement of the slip. Think it through. If any of the scum were builders, the standard operating procedure for mafia is to share those PMs around. If in this scenario there were scum builders, wouldn't work.

2. This is also not true. You could believe that some townies have conventional roles. The fact that you don't know how the roles work is the problem.

That's actually a completely different argument from Ham's argument, I think. Worse though, b/c there's nothing that actually shows that
in the thread. Where's the post where I misunderstand how building works?

You're now inferring things that aren't even in my posts.

3. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you read the sample pm or missed the sample pm. Either way, you slipped and then backpedaled.

So you think it's likely that I'm scum that just *forgot* how each role works? Even if that were true, or likely, how would that make any more sense than a townie who forget how the roles work? What makes that more likely to come from scum?

There's a vital step you're missing here. Errors != scum tells, unless there's a clear connection between the error that makes it only plausible or likely to come from the mafia.

4. I doubt you missed what kpaca said, but that doesn't mean you understood it, or what DK said in response. DK was not "counter claiming" per say, he was questioning the speed at which kpaca claimed his day vig
would be ready (a legitimate question that I asked myself when I read kpaca's claim).

So here, your argument is that I failed to understand the sample role PM, as scum, with a team without builders and/or discussion of what building is, and that without understanding that I somehow misunderstood how building works (again, show me any post ITT where that actually happens), and that *somehow*, this is a mistake that is so much more likely to come from scum that it's a slam dunk case.

Right.

You need to reread the thread, not skim it, then think about the words you're typing.

[Dechs Kaison]

like...did i miss something during my skim? do i have to actually read something more than that az has no idea how our town roles work?

Yeah, you missed the part where people take deep breaths and use logic to analyze things.

Occam's razor prefers the most simplistic solution. Your scenario requires me to:

1. Be scum on a team without builders.
2. Think that all the townies received
conventional roles.
3. Miss reading the vanilla PM
4. Miss reading Kpaca talk about building things

"Being dumb", isn't a simple solution to explain it, it's a complicated clusterfuck requires four separate conditions to all be true. It's also completely out of character for me, as even Kpaca's admitted.

That's opposed to the simple explanation of a townie who mistook the guy who tried to counter-claim Kpaca as someone who *could* actually (and was trying to) counter-claim Kpaca, by claiming to have a special affinity for vigging people.

This doesn't make you any less scum in my mind.
1. No, that's not a requirement of your slip. There could be scum that are builders and scum that are not, I would have no idea.
2. This is also not true. You could believe that some townies have conventional roles. The fact that you don't know how the roles work is the problem.
3. It wouldn't surprise me at all if you read the sample pm or missed the sample pm.
Either way, you slipped and then backpedaled.
4. I doubt you missed what kpaca said, but that doesn't mean you understood it, or what DK said in response. DK was not "counter claiming" per say, he was questioning the speed at which kpaca claimed his day vig would be ready (a legitimate question that I asked myself when I read kpaca's claim).

I'll know soon enough whether you are lying or not, assuming kpaca doesn't end you first.

1. Flavorgaming: Neither Lord Business nor Bad cop were builders if I remember the movie correctly. So it's actually likely that the scum team has no building powers.
2. Good point.
3. This was my thought from the beginning. He's the most experienced player and he knows it. Why would he read a sample PM he's seen a million other times that's behind a spoiler.
4. This is key. Everyone else seemed to know what I meant by "one of my three plans" and Az jumped to some piss poor conclusions for an experienced player who received a
Town PM along the lines of our Builder PMs.

Thanks for clearing my head, imopen.

Vote Azrael

[hamfactorial]

Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

Inventions. The PM calls them inventions, but until they're built, to me they're just plans.

This whole thing annoyed me yesterday when it
happened. I asked Azrael a direct question, which Dechs chose to expand on instead of letting Azrael answer it.

...

Why did DK feel the need to chime in when I was clearly asking for Az's interpretation of DK's wording? Perhaps he's running interference.

Apologies, that's a mistake on my part. I wasn't thinking of it as a direct question to Az. I read it more along the lines of "Dechs, your wording is fucked up" and I tried to clarify.

I asked that question after quoting a post by Azrael, referring to you in the third person by name. How could you misinterpret who I was talking to? If I asked you "Dechs, what do you think Dechs meant by XYZ?" you'd think I was retarded.

I find it unlikely that you misunderstood my post, Mr Grammer[sic] and Irony Police.

[Azrael]

Also, Az's plan is anti-town. Committing valuable town building time to a "everything is awesome" device instead of powerful individual creations seems foolish. Historically, scum can submit a kill and use their night action simultaneously. Requiring townies to press an awesome button instead of using nighttime devices can only protect the scum team if there are traditional investigative town roles in the game.

I'm sure there wouldn't be any feasible benefit to the town worth even talking about from a plan that could potentially mass roleblock every
scum role every night. Clearly this can only be a sinister attempt to divert the town's resources.

I happen to think it may or may not be foolproof, but it's an option we should consider in conjunction with other lines of play.

PPE - Experienced players don't read the sample role PMs? Wut?

[Azrael]

4. This is key. Everyone else seemed to know what I meant by "one of my three plans" and Az jumped to some piss poor conclusions for an experienced player who received a Town PM along the lines of our Builder PMs.

Aside from referring to my previous reply, did any of the people drinking the collective kool-aid on this bandwagon actually go back and read the posts in question to track what said "piss-poor conclusions" were, or are you just listening to one another's sound bites?

The "piss-poor conclusion" was that you counter-claimed the same role as Kpaca, a role with an enhanced ability to build weapons at an accelerated rate.

My mistake was assuming you actually HAD a counter-claim, instead of some
game-theory speculation about how fast he could possibly build weapons.

Go back, read the thread. THERE IS NOTHING I POSTED THAT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH UNDERSTANDING HOW BUILDING WORKS.

[Dechs Kaison]

Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

nInventions. The PM calls them inventions, but until they're built, to me they're just plans.

This whole thing annoyed me yesterday when it happened. I asked Azrael a direct question, which Dechs chose to expand on instead of letting Azrael answer it.

...

Why did DK feel the need to chime in when I was clearly asking for Az's interpretation of DK's wording? Perhaps he's running interference.

Apologies, that's a mistake on my part. I wasn't thinking of it as a direct question to Az. I read it more along the lines of "Dechs, your wording is fucked up" and I tried to clarify.

I asked that question after quoting a post by Azrael, referring to you in the third person by name. How could you misinterpret who I was talking to? If I asked you "Dechs, what do you think Dechs meant by XYZ?" you'd think I was retarded.

I find it unlikely that you misunderstood my post, Mr Grammer[sic] and Irony Police.

I didn'
t misunderstand your post. I know you were asking the question to Az, but I wasn't thinking of it in that framework when I answered.

Your post made me realize that I used wording that differed from my PM. I thought it needed clarification.

[Mogadishu Jones]

How does it give us a wagon to analyze. It's be a lynch of a lurker in a nine person game, a lynch you spearheaded under the guise of lynch a lurker. What will you gain analysis wise from having people follow your own train of thought?

What you are describing is a contrived attempt to push a mislynch. I am happy with my vote of you since I'm going to shoot Az tomorrow. Gg scum.

How many people are you going to try to kill off this game for bad logic tells?

Dechs is town. Scum wouldn't counter-claim you the way he did, the lurker frustration is genuine, if misdirected. Dechs is
a classic inexperienced townie, easily one of the top two or three most obvious townies in the game.

Well when you consider I also think you are scum, 2.

[Mogadishu Jones]

unvote: vote Azrael

[Azrael]

Show me one post ITT that demonstrates an actual misunderstanding how building works, Kpaca. One post.

You are the opposite of tilted right now. You are wagon-drunk. Nothing I post makes a dent in your aura of invincible self-assurance.

Meanwhile, you're ramming through a classic town "weird=scum" newbish mislynch based on a ton of shaky premises, including that I'm an idiot when you KNOW otherwise, and against two players who a half-way brain-dead tone analyst could clear in a heartbeat. Which clearly isn't you, or you'd have written off Dechs as obv-town easily.

That alone is a mistake you should have seen and known better from a thousand times over, as town. This is what newb town mislynches look like. Has happened a thousand times before, will happen a thousand times again. People get excited over something weird and mislynch someone who's a tonally pure-town, for something that wasn't an actual
genuine scum tell to begin with.

True to pattern, you're probably got "scum caught for wrong reasons", or "scum angry about being caught", confirmation bias. And you're wrong. This is what righteous townie wrath at being railroaded for bad reasons looks like. Take notes, because if you play long enough, you'll see this again. Learn from it.

[Azrael]

And hey, GR, since you're reading the thread, you should probably take a position so that when all this is over you can claim credit for being right about Az being town after all, or join the wagon b/c it's reached critical mass. That's much better scum play for you than hanging around backstage, waiting to see how the wind blows.

[Mogadishu Jones]

This is remarkably similar to how you convinced me to not lynch you as scum before.

[Azrael]

This is remarkably similar to how you convinced me to not lynch you as scum before.

I have no idea what game you might be referring to, but get over your fear of Azrael pulling a fast one on you. My posting style under either alignment is probably similar. I can't tell you what the differences are between scum and town Az defending himself, b/c I hardly ever run into this scenario as town - I think the last instance I clearly remember was back in Random Mafia 2, when Axelrod was yawgmoth.

I got pretty pissed off then, too. That was the whole infamous dying grandmother incident, that caused in-game betting to be banned on the site.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Like down to a tee. The underhanded digs at my ability, the feigned indigence, the out of character histrionics. ,

[Mogadishu Jones]

But what if Azrael pulls a fast one on me!?

[Dechs Kaison]

Az, you scare the shit out of me. I want you to know that.

Well, we have two people who are claimed vigilantes.

1. Dechs Kaison claimed to have a vigilante role.
2. You claim that your role has the ability to make "offensive weapons", including daykills, faster than normal.

Somehow that doesn't equate to a vigilante claim?

You thought I claimed Vig. Town roles this game don't work that way. My gut is telling me you could not
have known how town roles worked, or you wouldn't have said things like this.

But after reading everything you post, I feel like unvoting. EVERY POST. Your explanations are so damn good.

That's exactly what I'd expect from the best player in the game.

Again, Az, you scare the ever loving shit out of me. So here's the deal: I don't think I can risk letting you live. If you're scum, I'll never be sure of it. If you're town, I'm always going to be questioning this (perceived) blunder.

If you really are town, just give me your best reads right now. Help us close out this game after you're gone.

[Mogadishu Jones]

His read is gr as scum so if hes town youre also def town and ill shoot gr.

[hamfactorial]

And hey, GR, since you're reading the thread, you should probably take a position so that when all this is over you can claim credit for being right about Az being town after all, or join the wagon b/c it's reached critical mass. That's much better scum play for you than hanging around backstage, waiting to see how the wind blows.

Why do you care what GR is doing and his optimal scum play?

[Azrael]

Az, you scare the shit out of me. I want you to know that.

Well, we have two people who are claimed vigilantes.

1. Dechs Kaison claimed to have a vigilante role.
2. You claim that your role has the ability to make "offensive weapons", including daykills, faster than normal.

Somehow that doesn't equate to a vigilante claim?

You thought I claimed Vig. Town roles this game don't work that way. My gut is telling me you could not have known how town roles worked, or you wouldn't have said things like this.

But after reading everything you post, I feel like unvoting. EVERY POST. Your explanations are so damn good.

That's exactly what I'd expect from the best player in the game.

Again, Az, you scare the ever loving shit out of me. So here's the deal: I don't think I can risk letting you live. If you're scum, I'll never be sure of it. If you're town, I'm always going to be questioning this (perceived) blunder.

If you really are town, just give me your best reads right now. Help us close out this game after you're gone.

I intend to keep on giving my reads up until the moment I'm dead, which I'd prefer to NOT be immediately today, because there's a realistic chance I can pinpoint the entire scum team given a little more material to
work with.

As for the risk of a scum Az being invulnerable, that's logic that you shouldn't hold on to. Going purely by the odds, there's a roughly 75% chance based on the pure odds that I'm town, and can put in a major effort towards helping the town. If every game you automatically wanted to lynch the best players solely to eliminate that risk, you'd lynch townies 75% of the time - and the town's most effective townies, the ones most likely to be killed by the mafia for fear of their analysis and "cleared" in that fashion.

I'm certainly not gunning for Kpaca purely because of his reputation, or indulging in paranoia there, though it's a temptation. Kpaca is one of the best scum-alignment players on MTGS, whereas he'll freely admit his town skills aren't as formiddable, but that's not a reason to lynch him. What matters is whether the evidence is good, or not. And in this case, I think he's actually probably town, just misguided.

Vigilante in the above posts is short-hand for
a person able to kill someone else within two days, in a mini this size. I didn't make any assumptions about whether or not you could build anything else, but I did assume A) you were counter-claiming kpaca, and that B) you had something special in your PM that you were counter-claiming with, and that B) not everyone would be able to build weapons at a two-day rate, or the game would be potentially broken from a design standpoint.

[Azrael]

His read is gr as scum so if hes town youre also def town and ill shoot gr.=

*throws hands in air* Do you HAVE to unilaterally shoot people this game? Like, maybe extract a claim, and get a consensus from the town? I think GR's a decent candidate, but if I had a vig-shot, I wouldn't be pointing it at anyone right now. We have too little to go on. Unilateral vig shots are the techy once-in-thirty-games-it's-a-smart-play play, not something that you do just because.

Like, people have started specifically designing vigilante roles that are somehow restricted from firing unilaterally just so that Rambo-vigs can't savagely lose the game for the town so often.

And hey, GR, since you're reading the thread, you should probably take a position so that when all this is over you can claim credit for being right about Az being town after all, or join the wagon b/c it's reached critical mass. That's much better scum play for you than hanging around backstage, waiting to see how the wind blows.

Why do you care what GR is doing and his optimal scum play?

You're taking that post at face value, when maybe you shouldn't.

[Azrael]

@Mod - What's the game's replacement policy, if we can't find replacements for our 3-4 lurkers? Mod-kill? Getting to be the point where we need prods, I think.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Get some mtgs friends to replace Az.

[Azrael]

I could maybe do that, if need be.

[Azrael]

We'll try here, first.