LEGO Movie Mafia - Game Over - Town Win

[Azrael]

I can see I shouldnt expect much from you this game.

If i survive until tomorrow I will shoot Az with the lego daykilling shotgun I'm building.

I'm metal beard, i can speed build offensive weapons, and ive submitted an unlimited day killing lego lightsaber, a lego grenade laden lego bullet proof vest, and a lego one shot daykilling shotgun.

The shotgun will be ready tomorrow and I'm shooting Az with it.

Yes
this is a serious post and yes I'm claiming my role in my second post. Deal with it.

unvote, vote Jones

One of my plans was a vigilante power, not a day kill, and I was given a 2 day time to complete.

Ive never been wrong about Az but he usually poo-poos a anything I say to him and no helps me wagon him when I think he's scum, or helps me save him when i think hes town.

This time ill just unilaterally shoot him with a lego shotgun.

If i survive until tomorrow I will shoot Az with the lego daykilling shotgun I'm building.

I'm metal beard, i can speed build offensive weapons, and ive
submitted an unlimited day killing lego lightsaber, a lego grenade laden lego bullet proof vest, and a lego one shot daykilling shotgun.

The shotgun will be ready tomorrow and I'm shooting Az with it.

Yes this is a serious post and yes I'm claiming my role in my second post. Deal with it.

Does your role say you make offensive weapons quicker? Yeah didn't think so.

Hmm. First reaction was to facepalm. Second reaction was to think is Kpaca being ballsy scum. Third reaction was to think whether your flavor fits well with a scum claim in a game that's not likely to be mass-claim broken, that your claimed role sounds like something the scum would be likely to be given for balance purposes, and to worry about that counter-claim. Fourth reaction was to think that ordinarily, this type of D1
claim almost always comes from townies.

Fifth reaction was to wonder if Dechs is scum. Sixth reaction was to rule that out for the same reason as fourth reaction.

Welcome to the Azwolg club, I guess?

I'm annoyed that you're focusing on me instead of actual scum, but please carry on if you think pressing on me will help. I think your play so far has been pro-town, even if your target acquisition skills are broken.

Posts like this might actually win me over.

@Az (I'm spectacularly lazy right now, so I didn't feel like quoting all of that and cleaning it up), I like proactivity

Cool.

Azra-kun, did you by any chance read some old game before starting this one?
Just for the sake of asking.

No. I'm just really used to needing to explain that I'm purposely gathering reactions and stirring the pot at the start of a game, b/c lots of people aren't familiar with my hijinks anymore. IDK how many times I've cited World Dom 2 for that over the years, CIM's become a recent favorite, and the Cross-town game's a pretty fair example of my recent scum-play.

The traditionally 99% reliable technique to catch me as scum, most people would say, is to see if I start slacking off in my investigating after about the 3rd or 4th day of the game. There's probably a little bit of that in Cross-town, though not much. One or two of the few games I actually won as scum, I usually found some way around it, like pretending to have an emoticon-only
posting restriction or something dumb like that. But usually I'd just get worn out faking tells and die.

I'm curious whether that'll continue to be an issue in the future, but relieved that in this particular game I won't have to sweat it, because I much prefer to play town and I had been receiving more than my fair share of scum assignments the past year or two. As of my previous game, I think maybe my scum game has gotten a fair bit better than it used to be, made a couple good breakthroughs, but it still sucks pretty hard IMO.

FYI, when I'm not trying to confuse people really hard, I talk a lot in stream of consciousness. I figure this out to help you get an accurate read on me, and make up a bit for how scattershot certain phases of my D1 can be.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Ive never been added to the aezwold club for literally being above it. My daykill shooting is on cropcircle levels youve just avoided it.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Additionally dechs may be scum only cause I dont have much else to go on besides obvscum Az vote: Azrael .

Dechs could just be a lesser mafia theorist though.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Also i cant imagine my role as scum in a nine person game Az. Cmon man.

[Mogadishu Jones]

You might can Az around everyone else in this game, but cmon, ive been around the lego block a few times bro.

[Azrael]

Ah, there's where all those quotes went. I liked your post's last line, the rest of it, not as huge a fan.

*reads through* Well, let's go through it a little more slowly and see where we land.

I'm playful too, didn't you see the lulz?

Here, I'll put in some funny smilies so you know I'm a happy mafia player and nobody should suspect me, like you.



Playful doesn't mean town, and dismissive doesn't mean scum.

I agree. I simply disagree that my playful should = your condescending.

This is fairly sarcastic, here, which is very often a strong scum tell, but it could alternately be interpreted as paranoia, which is much more of a strong town reaction.

I'm going to wind up reading you as either very strongly town, or very strongly mafia.

Yay, how many Azrael points do I win? I hope I can cash them in for a prize later. I'm sure that you did the 3 scum thing on purpose, but from my POV I can't tell if that's scummy and stupid or a clever pro-town trick to see if I'll bite as noob scum.

Well, what do you think the
motivation would be from either perspective, and which motivation do you think is more likely/makes the most sense? Of course, it could easily be null, like you said. Or like I've said, I tend to do this under either alignment simply as a matter of procedure.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that your possibility #1 can be ruled out in favor of possibility #2, but that your possibility #2 doesn't really tell you anything useful, probably.

Weak. Simply saying "XXX is a pretty common scum reaction" does not make it so.

That's true. I could direct you to past games, or reading material articles, I guess - but it really boils down to these being general tendencies that myself and other players have observed and adopted as a canon, of sorts, with the proviso that any particular action of a person can come from either alignment and has to be understood in context and
within the framework of the town or scum motivation that might have caused it.

Additionally, where have I pointed out being unafraid of your case?

*snip*
For the record, I am indeed unafraid of your case and think it's baseless. But to point at me and say that I'm trying to appear confident and unafraid repeatedly is to lie, as I've only said once, to Dechs and not you, that I wasn't afraid.

Lying is anti-town. Why are you lying?

*thoughtful*

I'd tend to read this as a town-like defense, I think. The tone and confidence strike me as pretty natural, here.

When I say you've repeatedly tried to portray yourself as unconcerned, I was referring to the post you quoted, as well as the following:

"I'm ok with your method of scum hunting, carry on. You've never played a game with me, so asserting that I don't sound genuine is loose."

What's your take on
Mogadishu and Dechs?

[Azrael]

Also i cant imagine my role as scum in a nine person game Az. Cmon man.

Well, clearly if you can't imagine being scum in a nine person game, I can add you straight to my town column. Glad we settled that one.

You might can Az around everyone else in this game, but cmon, ive been around the lego block a few times bro.

posting.php?
mode=quote&f=13&p=252603

Increase English quotient by 10%?

I mean, if you're sure of your complete infallibility when it comes to daykilling, the only thing that's going to change your mind is getting burnt a couple of times. I don't recall specific instances of your firing off, but I'd imagine most of them weren't D1 shots, and I don't recall your trying your luck with me, very much.

I do know that you've always claimed to be better scum than town though, and I don't think your daykill analysis skills are intrinsically better than your ordinary behavioral analysis skills. So if you've got a high accuracy rate, it's probably b/c you ordinarily have special, and better reasons to take a shot. If you're falling back on what your gut tells you about whether I'm acting shady, yeah, you're going to misfire. I play my townie game shady as hell these days, Kpaca. I ring false positives on townie gut reads like mad - b/c I intentionally set out to do just that to get
the game moving.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Im not saying "oh I'm town" I'm saying if you believe me about my role in a 9 person game you should believe I'm town. i personally dont see scum getting an ability that suggests they make more guns.

[Mogadishu Jones]

I don't claim to be a great analyst, just a decent one. I do claim to be a good az analyst though.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Also you say you've changed your playstyle recently blah blah false positives.

How many games you actually been in lately?

[Azrael]

Also you say you've changed your playstyle recently blah blah false positives.

How many games you actually been in lately?

Not all that many. CIM, Cross-town, Astarte, and MTGS Mafia Redux are my most recent. I don't know that I've changed my playstyle so much as I've intensified it. My goal in every game I join now is to break the game open on day one, b/c it's not only possible, but also necessary, given my survival rate.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Well i'm killing you tomorrow good luck.

[Azrael]

So just to clarify, you're going to shotgun that kill off a D1 gut read less than two full pages into the thread?

Im not saying "oh I'm town" I'm saying if you believe me about my role in a 9 person game you should believe I'm town. i personally dont see scum getting an ability that suggests they make more guns.

Well, we have two people who are claimed vigilantes. In a 9 person game, what would you say the odds are that both those player slots are town-aligned? Anything's possible I suppose, but from a design standpoint, I don't see that level of town-assigned power as something that anything except a very unusual 9-man setup could account for.

So, someone's running a gambit here. Either your claim is BS, or your
alignment claim is BS, or Dech's alignment claim is BS. So which is it?

If you're not lying about your claim, under the circumstances, a 50-50 shot at one of the two scum in the game seems like a pretty fair bargain to me. Ready to go down in flames?

[Mogadishu Jones]

Youre scum. We can't be claiming vig, Our roles don't work that way, Your goose is cooked.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Like hahahahahaha awesome.

[Azrael]

Youre scum. We can't be claiming vig, Our roles don't work that way, Your goose is cooked.

lol

1. Dechs Kaison claimed to have a vigilante role.
2. You claim that your role has the ability to make "offensive weapons", including daykills, faster than normal.

Somehow that doesn't equate to a vigilante claim?

I'd tend to agree with that last bit, though. *Sits down, tucks napkin under chin, grabs fork and knife, waits for Kpaca to come out of the oven*

[Dechs Kaison]

Youre scum. We can't be claiming vig, Our roles don't work that way, Your goose is cooked.

lol

1. Dechs Kaison claimed to have a vigilante role.
2. You claim that your role has the ability to make "offensive weapons", including daykills, faster than normal.

Somehow that doesn't equate to a vigilante claim?

I'd tend to agree with that last bit, though. *Sits down, tucks napkin under chin, grabs fork and knife, waits for Kpaca to come out of the oven*[/
quote]

Cool your jets, I said I submitted a plan for a vigilante power and that it would take two days to build. I never said I started that plan, only that it was one that I submitted. It's why I don't believe a daykill shotgun could be completed in one day, even with some kind of speed building role.

That's a few times now I've seen you be more than a little misleading. Couple that with the fact that you don't seem to be familiar with the town role PM structure or how the Master Builder stuff works (which is weird, because it's in the bloody sample PM)... I'm going back to my initial vote.

Unvote, Vote Azrael

If I count right, now that's L-1.

[Stardust]

Votecount!

hamfactorial (2): RedNihilist, Azrael
Dechs Kaison (1): hamfactorial
RedNihilist (1): ( G_R )
Azrael (4): Lord_Mcdonalds, imopen2, Mogadishu Jones, Dechs Kaison
( G_R ) (1): Captain Murphy

Not voting: ...

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

[( G_R )]

Dechs, do you think one of them is scum or both?

[Dechs Kaison]

I don't believe they're both scum. I definitely don't want to fall into the trap that one or the other has to be scum.

I'm actually coming around to Jones' claim. In the worst case, he's lying and doesn't kill someone tomorrow and we hang him because lynch all liars is a thing.

I don't want to flavorgame this too hard, but I really do think Stardust made us all master builders. I mean, that's cool because the game takes its shape from what we want to build, but if Jones is telling the truth, then we've got specialized builders. In fact, "Master Builder" might be this game's version of a vanilla townie.

That said, two days is a long time for a power to take to build. Three days basically means you'll never complete it before you're hanged or night killed. That said, Jones' one day to build a one shot, daykill shotgun is almost reasonable. Of course, I think he's an idiot, because he basically
told the scum team to kill him tonight. Hopefully one of us is a doctor builder and can save him.

[Mcdonalds]

unvote azreal

Need a bit of time to think

Will post when I get back from school

[( G_R )]

I don't believe they're both scum. I definitely don't want to fall into the trap that one or the other has to be scum.

I'm actually coming around to Jones' claim. In the worst case, he's lying and doesn't kill someone tomorrow and we hang him because lynch all liars is a thing.

I don't want to flavorgame this too hard, but I really do think Stardust made us all master builders. I mean, that's cool because the game takes its shape from what we want to build, but if Jones is telling the truth, then we've got specialized builders. In fact, "Master Builder" might be this game's version of a vanilla townie.

That said, two days is a long time for a power to take to build. Three days basically means you'll never complete it before you're
hanged or night killed. That said, Jones' one day to build a one shot, daykill shotgun is almost reasonable. Of course, I think he's an idiot, because he basically told the scum team to kill him tonight. Hopefully one of us is a doctor builder and can save him.

Unvote RedNihilist
Vote Dechs Kaison

I don't like your use of the word "trap", your vote-hopping, nor the fact that you're trying to direct a power role.

Your light-claim is not helping your case either.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Seriously does no one care that az doesn't know how town roles work?

[Azrael]

Cool your jets, I said I submitted a plan for a vigilante power and that it would take two days to build. I never said I started that plan, only that it was one that I submitted. It's why I don't believe a daykill shotgun could be completed in one day, even with some kind of speed building role.

That's a few times now I've seen you be more than a little misleading. Couple that with the fact that you don't seem to be familiar with the town role PM structure or how the Master Builder stuff works (which is weird, because it's in the bloody sample PM)... I'm going back to my initial vote.

Unvote, Vote Azrael

If I count right, now that's L-1.

Not misleading, mistaken based on what you wrote. Again, with
the wacky leaps in logic.

Your original post, the 35th of the game, said that one of your "plans" that you started with gave you a two-day build time on vigilante powers. From that, it sounded to me like you were NOT a master builder, that you were a role that had received a starting "plan" from the mod. "Plan" is not nomenclature that appears anywhere in my own role PM, and I didn't expect anyone to have already submitted and received info on a build time that early in the game. Then you came out with your role as if Kpaca's role couldn't possibly be town, like it was an actual counter-claim. Thus, I interpreted that as claiming a role with a special vigilante affinity, and an attempt to directly counterclaim, not as skepticism because someone has the capacity to build things faster than the rest of the playerbase.

Maybe some of you went into the game expecting that everyone would be a generic master builder, but I've been keeping an open mind until we know a little
more about what's going on.

As is, no, it's not really a counter-claim, though it is useful information. It makes me curious what kind of countermeasures the mod has put into place so that the entire town couldn't theoretically grab vig kills for night 2 if we chose to - I can think of a few.

unvote, vote Jones

One of my plans was a vigilante power, not a day kill, and I was given a 2 day time to complete.

[hamfactorial]

I'm disturbed by it as well.

@Azrael - why does MoJo's speed build for offensive weapons equate a vigilante claim? What part of what Dechs said makes you think he claimed vig?

[Mogadishu Jones]

Look at him backpedal from "well the town cant have two vigs".

[Mogadishu Jones]

It doesn't "equate" a vig claim, hes trying to make it seem like thats what he "meant all along" post facto.

Not buying.

[Azrael]

I don't believe they're both scum. I definitely don't want to fall into the trap that one or the other has to be scum.

I'm actually coming around to Jones' claim. In the worst case, he's lying and doesn't kill someone tomorrow and we hang him because lynch all liars is a thing.

I don't want to flavorgame this too hard, but I really do think Stardust made us all master builders. I mean, that's cool because the game takes its shape from what we want to build, but if Jones is telling the truth, then we've got specialized builders. In fact, "Master Builder" might be this game's version
of a vanilla townie.

That said, two days is a long time for a power to take to build. Three days basically means you'll never complete it before you're hanged or night killed. That said, Jones' one day to build a one shot, daykill shotgun is almost reasonable. Of course, I think he's an idiot, because he basically told the scum team to kill him tonight. Hopefully one of us is a doctor builder and can save him.

Unvote RedNihilist
Vote Dechs Kaison

I don't like your use of the word "trap", your vote-hopping, nor the fact that you're trying to direct a power role.

Your light-claim is not helping your case either.

This seems like an odd vote to me. I would actually expect most townies to be commenting negatively on me at
this point, or trying to analyze me. Instead, you go for the newbie, don't really address your old red nihilist vote that I had a question about, and try to throw him under the bus for his claim for some reason (which is actually a pretty strong town tell).

[hamfactorial]

It doesn't "equate" a vig claim, hes trying to make it seem like thats what he "meant all along" post facto.

Not buying.

His other posts towards me have the ex post facto thing going on, too. Have you played with him before? Does he do this by habit? Do you think it's a cover for scummy play?

[Azrael]

I'm disturbed by it as well.

@Azrael - why does MoJo's speed build for offensive weapons equate a vigilante claim? What part of what Dechs said makes you think he claimed vig?

Answered per above. I thought that like Kpaca, he was claiming a special vigilante affinity, which would make sense to me as a way to balance out the vanilla landscape with some concrete limits and advantages to what the town can do, or is likely to do.

Look at him backpedal from "well the town cant have two vigs".

I wouldn't expect the town to have received two roles with a vigilante building affinity, no.

And I wouldn't have expected that it would take only two days to assemble a vig kill, as a generic role, b/c of the scenario where *everyone* could grab vig kills and break the game wide open, potentially. But I guess that *could* be a viable scenario. Probably not any longer.

[Mogadishu Jones]

It doesn't "equate" a vig claim, hes trying to make it seem like thats what he "meant all along" post facto.

Not buying.

His other posts towards me have the ex post facto thing going on, too. Have you played with him before? Does he do this by habit? Do you think it's a cover for scummy play?

No ive never seem this level of backtracking from Az. Ive never seen him slip so bad tbh. I think he just got way over confident being far and away the best player in this game. (I'd consider myself second best, but he's basically Lebron James and
I'm Chris Bosh. Im good but its not close).

[Mogadishu Jones]

He uses more emojis when hes scum too.

[hamfactorial]

I'm disturbed by it as well.

@Azrael - why does MoJo's speed build for offensive weapons equate a vigilante claim? What part of what Dechs said makes you think he claimed vig?

Answered per above. I thought that like Kpaca, he was claiming a special vigilante affinity, which would make sense to me as a way to balance out the vanilla landscape with some concrete limits and advantages to what the town can do, or is likely to do.

[quote="Mogadishu Jones » Tue Sep 02, 2014 4:41 pm":
3jha1w35]Look at him backpedal from "well the town cant have two vigs".

I wouldn't expect the town to have received two roles with a vigilante building affinity, no.

And I wouldn't have expected that it would take only two days to assemble a vig kill, as a generic role, b/c of the scenario where *everyone* could grab vig kills and break the game wide open, potentially. But I guess that *could* be a viable scenario. Probably not any longer.[/quote]
Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

[( G_R )]

I don't believe they're both scum. I definitely don't want to fall into the trap that one or the other has to be scum.

I'm actually coming around to Jones' claim. In the worst case, he's lying and doesn't kill someone tomorrow and we hang him because lynch all liars is a thing.

I don't want to flavorgame this too hard, but I really do think Stardust made us all master builders. I mean, that's cool because the game takes its shape from
what we want to build, but if Jones is telling the truth, then we've got specialized builders. In fact, "Master Builder" might be this game's version of a vanilla townie.

That said, two days is a long time for a power to take to build. Three days basically means you'll never complete it before you're hanged or night killed. That said, Jones' one day to build a one shot, daykill shotgun is almost reasonable. Of course, I think he's an idiot, because he basically told the scum team to kill him tonight. Hopefully one of us is a doctor builder and can save him.

Unvote RedNihilist
Vote Dechs Kaison

I don't like your use of the word "trap", your vote-hopping, nor the fact that you're trying to direct a power role.

Your light-claim is not helping your case either.

This seems like an odd vote to me. I would actually expect most townies to be commenting negatively on me at this point, or trying to analyze me. Instead, you go for the newbie, don't really address your old red nihilist vote that I had a question about, and try to throw him under the bus for his claim for some reason (which is actually a pretty strong town tell).

I know enough about both you and Jones to be jumping to conclusions D1. My greatest fear is that you're both part of the scum team. Having once against the other balances things out for me and having both as townies... well I'm on the fence, depending on how you read each other.

This Dechs post however rang too many alarms for me.

[Dechs Kaison]

Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

Inventions. The PM calls them inventions, but until they're built, to me they're just plans.

[Azrael]

It doesn't "equate" a vig claim, hes trying to make it seem like thats what he "meant all along" post facto.

Not buying.

His other posts towards me have the ex post facto thing going on, too. Have you played with him before? Does he do this by habit? Do you think it's a cover for scummy play?

Yes, he's played with me probably a dozen times. Yes, people need my play explained to them all the time. Obviously, he does.

The pertinent question is whether you believe it's more or less likely for a townie or a scum to misunderstand what
Dechs was trying to say. It's apparent from the public record that I understood Dechs to be claiming a special vigilante power that was exclusive to Kpaca's claimed role - I wrote posts in line with that multiple times. Also, not only the vanilla PM but Kpaca's own role-claim was on record at this point, so unless you think I had a complete brain hemorrhage and/or the entire mafia team doesn't have any builders on it, I'm finding it kind of hard to envision the scenario where I'm supposed to be a scum who's not aware that people in this game can build different stuff.

Maybe Kpaca would care to explain what he thinks was going on in my head, there, as mafia. Like, what do you think I was *actually* thinking, if this is supposed to be my retcon scenario? That this was some kind of conventional mafia setup with one vig, one doc, and that I can't read? Right.

Misunderstanding what another player is saying is not a legitimate scum tell here, and if you lynch over it, you're just tilting over how
eager you are to catch a scum Azrael that doesn't even exist this game, Kpaca. You've got a bad gut read, and an ax to grind, not a legit concern.

Your scum theory requires me to not understand that people build things in this game. Seriously?

[( G_R )]

About the RedN vote, the fact that your rather fishy claim that he's town can't really be analyzed (WIFOM) I wanted a reaction from him, but he seems to either be MIA or just lurking like hell.

[Dechs Kaison]

About the RedN vote, the fact that your rather fishy claim that he's town can't really be analyzed (WIFOM) I wanted a reaction from him, but he seems to either be MIA or just lurking like hell.

Red lives in a different time zone (Italy, IIRC). It's going to be hard to get real time conversation with him going.

[Azrael]

Dechs only said that one of his plans was for a vig power. Do you know what he meant by plans?

Well, now I do. Originally, I thought it was something that came to him with his role PM that set him apart.

For myself, I've got a number of ideas of things I'd like to make that are fairly unusual and tailored to my own specific play needs. I'm curious to see what the mod will say back about them, how long some might take, but I've been holding off on any submissions until I have more information on what the town might need, or in case we decide it might make to come up with a Master Plan of some kind to coordinate actions.

For instance, we could potentially require scum-spects to submit a request for an item that simply notifies
everyone in the town that "everything is awesome", so that we can verify that they didn't do anything else that night ability-wise.

There's some pretty nifty things we could do with roleblocks, tracking, and watching, too, but I'm suspicious that the mafia may have some level of broad-based immunity to our inventions in line with the flavor of the movie and also for balance purposes, so I'm a bit less enamored of plans that require truthful results and/or successful actions.

[( G_R )]

About the RedN vote, the fact that your rather fishy claim that he's town can't really be analyzed (WIFOM) I wanted a reaction from him, but he seems to either be MIA or just lurking like hell.

Red lives in a different time zone (Italy, IIRC). It's going to be hard to get real time conversation with him going.

Thanks. Good to know. My vote for him was yesterday IIRC, so I believe he's had time to check the thread since.