Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:54 am

I posted it, since I was pretty sure that mafia had day chat and I wanted to make a somewhat snarky comment on how others didn't read the intro. I then went back to make sure I was right. Ironically, I was not.

( G_R ) · Postby **( G_R )** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:07 am

Did Freedom just claim scum, or am I missing something? "I just lost the game"? Seriously? Somebody tell me what I'm reading wrong.

imopen2 · Postby **imopen2** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:08 am

I just want to leave this here.

"What exactly do you find wrong with that statement by Freedom? Yes, he is playing devil's advocate for Murphy (and I disagree with him), but that doesn't make Freedom scum." -Me

"It makes him scum cause you are defending him freedom instead of ignoring or snide commenting on it as usual. Associations label you and freedom." -Wraith

So...anyone find this interesting?

Jack · Postby **Jack** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:30 am

Well, I'm not exactly winning right now, am I? I'm saying I lost because I have nearly gotten myself killed and have been leading my team to a mislynch. I really don't care now, though, and I doubt I'm getting out of this.

imopen2: yeah, that stood out to me as well.

Postby **Stardust** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:47 am

imopen, answer my questions instead of going after mislynch bait.

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:08 am

Well freedom is our day one lynch

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:09 am

imopen is the most likely scum bud too

Wraith223 · Postby **Wraith223** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:36 am

I just want to leave this here.

"What exactly do you find wrong with that statement by Freedom? Yes, he is playing devil's advocate for Murphy (and I disagree with him), but that doesn't make Freedom scum." -Me

"It makes him scum cause you are defending him freedom instead of ignoring or snide commenting on it as usual. Associations label you and freedom." -Wraith

So...anyone find this interesting?

Still diggin that hole? Using underlining to miss-label me will not work. You record on this thread stands as the reason I find you scum. The contradiction, the hasty defense of a someone who should find wrong from the vote against C.M., and your attempts to miss-guide
others by misconstruing my sentences with underlining make you the big fish over Freedom right now. Please answer Stardust's question, but I doubt you will.

Wraith223 · Postby **Wraith223** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:47 am

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?

imopen2 · Postby **imopen2** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:48 am

what question? I went back 2 pages and don't see anything

imopen2 · Postby **imopen2** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:52 am

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?

any hole that is being dug for me is by misguided town or scum. all I have done is give my honest reads and point out the numerous flaws in the case against me and against freedom. if defending a player when they are obviously being set up for a lynch based on faulty cases, I'm going to say something. does that mean I know freedom is town? no.
but I don't like the wagon on him and the points I made against zem are valid.

lynch and learn

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:06 am

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?

Freedom faked a townslip after being pushed into a corner and on top of that he claimed vanilla. We lynch freedom.

rezombad · Postby **rezombad** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 6:34 am

Too much fucking mafia to catch up on.

wraith is town
fate is town

cm is probscum
zem is probscum
imopen is probscum
freedom is probscum

everyone else is probtown by default.

I'll get a couple more concrete reads tomorrow.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:10 am

I do not support a vote on imopen2, but zem gave us 2 options, and I know that I'd be the wrong choice.

I don't really care which of you we lynch today. So if you're really Town, vote for imopen2 and we will lynch him instead.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:22 am

@ Stardizzle

Fate says he's mafia and doesn't want to get killed by the other team. He even goes so far as to say, "truce Ice Mafia?". Fine, gambit or something (though we don't need the WIFOM), but zemanjaski votes Fate for it. Fate responds with the following:
No you misunderstand.

1. I didn't know the kill failed if thye both used it on a townie (never heard of that mechanic, usually its just scum are immune to each others? I skimmed through the set-up readings not my thing.)

2. I didn't want to be killed by either team because I have this bad record of dying N1 every game I play and
never getting to contribute.
I think Z understood perfectly. You claimed scum, but apparently forgot that and explained it away with this post?
Fate! What were you thinking here?
zemanjaski! Why didn't you follow up on this?

I was content with Fate's explanation that that he simply had misunderstood the game rules (with the cross-kills). I didn't read him as seriously claiming scum; having looked at some of his games he has a pretty loose and casual style so comments like that are whatever you make of them. I'm pretty cautious with experienced players and Fate is one of the most experienced I have played with, so I just willing to keep him in my null pile for now. He's definitely giving a Town vibe, but that could be ScumFate hunting down the other scum team.

Wow, this imopen post is pretty brutal.
Scum regardless of freedom's alignment, I should think.

Pretty sure rcw and Wraith are town.

I agree entirely. I think we need to give serious thought as to whether imopen2 is the better lynch toDay. Since reading the last page and a bit, my gut is that imopen2 is definitely scum, freedom is like, 70-80% scum. The content of Freedom's last few posts has given me a little pause; the frustration coming through feels real, maybe he is adopting the Suga/Rezombad style of self-serving anti-Town play? I am willing to lynch either but at this point my preference is for an imopen2 lynch first, freedom second.

I will leave my vote on freedom, because as I said, happy with either, but I would be open to discussing a switch to imopen2.

If I have learned anything from the games I have played, it is that I need to
trust my reads and more aggressively push for a lynch - Stardust really highlighted that to me after DTR mafia.
When did I highlight that? Link.

Highlighted in the sense that I learned from your zealous pursuit of me in DTR; I called two people scum correctly in that game but wasn't dogged enough in getting them lynched; I am trying to more aggressively push my reads where I feel that they are correct now.

Z, in this post you attack freedom for self-meta'ing, yet do so yourself in that same post. 'Sup?

Meh. It's not really the same, I am not making a claim that is limited to how I play; I wanted to demonstrate that the reasoning that "aggressively asking questions = scum" is flawed. Freedom is being illogical to think that "someone asking me lots of questions = scum". I am not making a
specific claim about how I play; contrast that to Freedom's "I am playing the same as that other game where I was Town, so I am Town".

tl;dr: imopen2 and freedom are probably scum. Happy continuing to vote imopen for the time being. Manders and zemanjaski have me a little nervous. rcw and Wraith are my solid town reads. Anyone voting for CM right now is either scum or dumb. Vote him later when he does something that's actually scummy.

Thoughts on Rezombad?

( G_R ) · Postby **( G_R )** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:51 pm

Too much fucking mafia to catch up on.

wraith is town
fate is town

cm is probscum
zem is probscum
imopen is probscum
freedom is probscum

everyone else is probtown by default.

I'll get a couple more concrete reads tomorrow.

May we know what your reads are based on?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:57 pm

Did Freedom just claim scum, or am I missing something? "I just lost the game"? Seriously? Somebody tell me what I'm reading wrong.

You're reading wrong.

It seems like he cannot help but phrase things in scummy ways though.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:02 pm

Suga what do you think about imopen2?

( G_R ) · Postby **( G_R )** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:07 pm

I'm also having trouble believing that town slip. The vanilla claim was kind of expected, wouldn't you say that CM?

DroppinSuga · Postby **DroppinSuga** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:09 pm

I think imopen is scum as well. I will support either a lynch on imopen or freedom today. I don't think they're scum buddies, but I definitely believe that they are both scum.

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:10 pm

Ah yeah, that's kinda where I am starting to lean.

I am certain imopen2 is scum. Freedom, maybe 70% now after his last few posts. Still want to hear from Stardust, but at the time of writing, would prefer to lynch imopen2.

Postby **Stardust** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:11 pm

I will leave my vote on freedom, because as I said, happy with either, but I would be open to discussing a switch to imopen2.

Yeah, let's discuss that, because I agree. imopen is a better lynch.

Thoughts on Rezombad?

He read the game at least... Got the same reads as everybody else basically. Calling Fate town at this point maybe points towards him being more likely to be town. Not sure.

Have you actually got a read on him?

zemanjaski · Postby **zemanjaski** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:14 pm

I will leave my vote on freedom, because as I said, happy with either, but I would be open to discussing a switch to imopen2.
Yeah, let's discuss that, because I agree. imopen is a better lynch.

Cool.

Unvote, vote imopen2

I think it is just better to take out imopen2 because he is so much more likely to be scum. I wouldn't mind a little more time to think about Freedom; we can also look back through imopen2's interactions and look for any unaligned players, though it'll be tough with Manders and Rezombad producing so little content.
n

Thoughts on Rezombad?
He read the game at least... Got the same reads as everybody else basically. Calling Fate town at this point maybe points towards him being more likely to be town. Not sure.

Have you actually got a read on him?

Based on my previous games with him I have him as lean town. I've never seen him play scum, so that should be kept in mind, but the type of posts he is making and his style of analysis is consistent with his Town game.

DroppinSuga · Postby **DroppinSuga** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:28 pm

unvote
vote: imopen2

Can we get a vote count?

Prod on Manders?

imopen2 · Postby **imopen2** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:51 pm

So I just checked my role pm and I'm still town. Feel free to Unvote.

( G_R ) · Postby **( G_R )** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:06 pm

lol @ Suga asking for prods.

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:15 pm

I'm also having trouble believing that town slip. The vanilla claim was kind of expected, wouldn't you say that CM?

When you push a player to L-2 its because they are scummy, when they claim vanilla it shouldn't halt the wagon and have everyone second guessing. You push forward for lynch and use it for day 2 analysis (along with the NK, or multiple NK's)

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with a imopen lynch too, but the fake slip is so lulzy I cannot help myself. I know imopen is a strong player and that is enticing but seriously, a forced slip and a "I've lost this game now", really?

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:19 pm

I think imopen is scum as well. I will support either a lynch on imopen or freedom today. I don't think they're scum buddies, but I definitely believe that they are both scum.

This is the best thing I've ever seen you post in forum mafia Droppin, I'm going to look back at the interactions because I really thought they are buds but that might have been a bit biased because of my wagon.

Postby **Stardust** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:23 pm

what question? I went back 2 pages and don't see anything

|
|
v

imopen! Am I scum? Why did you drop my wagon? More importantly, why didn't you ask me why I thought you thought I was scum after this post? You're not trying to determine my alignment.

Postby **Stardust** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:29 pm

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?

My only thought is that I believe imopen2 and freedom are not scum buddies. I have noticed them making many of the same moves this game, but I think it's more likely that they're buddying to each other not because they're scum buddies but because scum buddy townies all the time. Now we've got scum buddying scum, but I think that's only accidental.

( G_R ) · Postby **( G_R )** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:32 pm

Alright, I'm fine with lynching Freedom. Not sure about imopen2. Anyone against this please state your points before proceeding.

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:38 pm

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?
Freedom faked a townslip after being pushed into a corner and on top of that he claimed vanilla. We lynch freedom.

Unless I'm reading the game setup incorrectly, he
doesn't have many other options. The game only has:
2x Fire mafia
2x Ice mafia
1x Doc
8x Vanilla Town

So he could claim vanilla town, doc, or scum. He's not going to claim scum, and claiming Doc at this point is both dangerous for town and unnecessary.

IGMEOY Murph. Reading into a vanilla claim seems too forced in this setup.

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:10 pm

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?
Freedom faked a
townslip after being pushed into a corner and on top of that he claimed vanilla. We lynch freedom.
Unless I'm reading the game setup incorrectly, he doesn't have many other options. The game only has:
2x Fire mafia
2x Ice mafia
1x Doc
8x Vanilla Town

So he could claim vanilla town, doc, or scum. He's not going to claim scum, and claiming Doc at this point is both dangerous for town and unnecessary.

IGMEOY Murph. Reading into a vanilla claim seems too forced in this setup.

So why drop the wagon when he isn't claiming doc? No PR claim means scum or vanilla, fortunately the person at L-2 is incredibly scummy, and can give us great D1 wagon analysis

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:11 pm

Why even push someone to a claim if you are just going to drop it and push someone else until the doc has to claim?

Make me an argument as to why freedom is town rcw and I'll happily believe the vanilla claim and drop it

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:15 pm

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now
freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?
Freedom faked a townslip after being pushed into a corner and on top of that he claimed vanilla. We lynch freedom.
Unless I'm reading the game setup incorrectly, he doesn't have many other options. The game only has:
2x Fire mafia
2x Ice mafia
1x Doc
8x Vanilla Town

So he could claim vanilla town, doc, or scum. He's not going to claim scum, and claiming Doc at this point is both dangerous for town and unnecessary.

IGMEOY Murph. Reading into a vanilla claim seems too forced in this setup.
So why drop the wagon when he isn't claiming doc? No PR claim means scum or vanilla, fortunately the person at L-2 is incredibly scummy, and can give us great D1 wagon analysis

Not advocating for dropping the wagon, though I have had my vote on imopen the whole time and don't have a strong reason to move
it.

Yes, there are plenty of other scummy things to hone in on re: Freedom.

But you chose to point out his vanilla claim? I'm having a hard time finding the town motivation for that due to setup.

Postby **Stardust** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:16 pm

Unofficial Votecount...

Stardust (0)
freedom (3) - Fate, Captain Murphy, Void
rcwraspy (0)
zemanjaski (2) - imopen2, , freedom
Void (0)
Wraith223 (0)
Fate (0)
Captain Murphy (1) - Manders
DroppinSuga (0)
Manders (0)
rezombad (0)
(G_R) (0)
imopen2 (5) - Stardust, rcwraspy, Wraith223, zemanjaski, DroppinSuga

Not Voting (2) - rezombad, (G_R)

imopen, you may as well claim at this point.

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:19 pm

Why even push someone to a claim if you are just going to drop it and push someone else until the doc has to claim?

Make me an argument as to why freedom is town rcw and I'll happily believe the vanilla claim and drop it

No.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't think Freedom is town. To me he's leaning scum at best, and scumspect #2 behind imopen at worst. So I'm not going to sell "freedom is town" to you because I don't believe it.

But I don't like you focusing on his claim because I find the claim meaningless and focusing on it is misleading. If I'm wrong about that, tell me why.

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:20 pm

@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum
team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?
Freedom faked a townslip after being pushed into a corner and on top of that he claimed vanilla. We lynch freedom.
Unless I'm reading the game setup incorrectly, he doesn't have many other options. The game only has:
2x Fire mafia
2x Ice mafia
1x Doc
8x Vanilla Town

So he could claim vanilla town, doc, or scum. He's not going to claim scum, and claiming Doc at this point is both dangerous for town and unnecessary.

IGMEOY Murph. Reading into a vanilla claim seems too forced in this setup.
So why drop the wagon when he isn't claiming doc? No PR claim means scum or vanilla, fortunately the person at L-2 is incredibly scummy, and can give us great D1 wagon
analysis
Not advocating for dropping the wagon, though I have had my vote on imopen the whole time and don't have a strong reason to move it.

Yes, there are plenty of other scummy things to hone in on re: Freedom.

But you chose to point out his vanilla claim? I'm having a hard time finding the town motivation for that due to setup.

I was answering a question from GR, did you not read the whole thing?

rcwraspy · Postby **rcwraspy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:28 pm

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=177028#p177028:25u7gatn]Captain Murphy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:20 am[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=177022#p177022:25u7gatn]rcwraspy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 1:15 am[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=177018#p177018:25u7gatn]Captain Murphy » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:10 am[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=177005#p177005:25u7gatn]rcwraspy » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:38 am[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=176877#p176877:25u7gatn]Captain Murphy » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:06 pm[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=176874#p176874:25u7gatn]Wraith223 » Tue
Jan 21, 2014 12:47 pm[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn]@Captain Murphy and Stardust, I saw Freedom mention "Scum day talk". He can't be the leader in the scum team from being new in the game and passive in nature. I find Iamopen2 to be the leader and calling the shots. He said he is not interested in playing; now freedom does. Iamopen2 posts a miss-guided quote of mine to hide behind; freedom backs him with more speculative sentences. Thoughts?[/quote:25u7gatn]
Freedom faked a townslip after being pushed into a corner and on top of that he claimed vanilla. We lynch freedom.[/quote:25u7gatn]
Unless I'm reading the game setup incorrectly, he doesn't have many other options. The game only has:
2x Fire mafia
2x Ice mafia
1x Doc
8x Vanilla Town

So he could claim vanilla town, doc, or scum. He's not going to claim scum, and claiming Doc at this point is both dangerous for town and unnecessary.

IGMEOY Murph. Reading into a vanilla claim seems too forced in this setup.[/quote:25u7gatn]
So
why drop the wagon when he isn't claiming doc? No PR claim means scum or vanilla, fortunately the person at L-2 is incredibly scummy, and can give us great D1 wagon analysis[/quote:25u7gatn]
Not advocating for dropping the wagon, though I have had my vote on imopen the whole time and don't have a strong reason to move it.

Yes, there are plenty of other scummy things to hone in on re: Freedom.

But you chose to point out his vanilla claim? I'm having a hard time finding the town motivation for that due to setup.[/quote:25u7gatn]
I was answering a question from GR, did you not read the whole thing?[/quote:25u7gatn]
Incorrect.

The whole exchange is quoted here, so I'll leave it quoted even though it's turning into a quote wall.

You were responding to Wraith, who didn't even bring up the claim. Then you mentioned the claim, implying it was scummy.

G_R later asked about it, similarly to me, but that's not what we've been discussing. Here's that exchange:

[quote="Captain
Murphy":25u7gatn][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=176970#p176970:25u7gatn]( G_R ) » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:07 pm[/url:25u7gatn]":25u7gatn]I'm also having trouble believing that town slip. The vanilla claim was kind of expected, wouldn't you say that CM?[/quote:25u7gatn]
When you push a player to L-2 its because they are scummy, when they claim vanilla it shouldn't halt the wagon and have everyone second guessing. You push forward for lynch and use it for day 2 analysis (along with the NK, or multiple NK's)

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with a imopen lynch too, but the fake slip is so lulzy I cannot help myself. I know imopen is a strong player and that is enticing but seriously, a forced slip and a "I've lost this game now", really?[/quote:25u7gatn]

So CM my questions are: what did you expect Freedom to claim? In what way is claiming vanilla indicative of alignment in either direction?

Captain Murphy · Postby **Captain Murphy** » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:32 pm

I never said it made him scummy, his actions did. His claim solidified his choice to be lynched today. Had he claimed doc it would be a different situation.

Dies to Removal

Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

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