News and Rumors[DTK] Narset Transcendent

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[DTK] Narset Transcendent

Post #1 by ( G_R ) » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:27 pm

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Narset Trancendent [mana]2WU[/mana]
Planeswalker - Narset
Mythic Rare
[+1]: Look at the top card of your library. If it's a noncreature, nonland card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand.
[-2]: When you cast your next instant o r sorcery spell from our hand this turn, it gains rebound.
[-9]: you get an emblem with "Your opponents can't cast noncreature spells."
Loyalty=6

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Post #2 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:30 pm

The first ability is good to great. The ultimate is potentially very great. The middle ability is actually the magical christmas land effect.
This card has no way to protect itself and offers you no direct way to win the game or manage the board.

I have middling to low expectations for this card, despite how cool it is.

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Post #3 by Kaitscralt » Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:50 pm

This reminds me of Domri, which was a defining card in Standard.

-2 a Dig sounds great.

The no protection thing is a real concern, but the 7 loyalty is nothing to scoff at.

I predict it's very playable if UW is playable.
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Post #4 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:07 pm

Domri costed 3 and protected itself with the fight mechanic (which synergized with its +1), two benefits Narset can't claim. Going double dig does imply a bit of a magical Christmas land scenario (remember, this isn't the first time we've essentially had this ability n a planeswalker), and the lack of guaranteed card advantage on a 4cc walker is also a bit troubling.
The other thing of note is that having a huge loyalty is only mediocre if it doesn't do anything. Compare high loyalty with abilities on Gideon vs this. This card sort of operates in a world where nothing else is going on so it can just do it's things, which is mostly an unrealistic expectation.

There's the likelihood that because UW is good this just automatically fits into the deck, but that presupposes UW is good and that it has space for a non-win condition that operates best in a win-more board state.

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Post #5 by Stardust » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:10 pm

Yeah, my first thought seeing this card is that I can probably just ignore it and continue swinging in. The advantage it gives isn't well defined and is generally going to be too slow if your opponent's got anything going.
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Post #6 by LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:15 pm

It's reverse domri which is pretty good. Lets examine the card line by line:

4 mana azorious. 4 mana's generally the sweet spot for walkers so this being cheapish is on par. The fact that it's UW makes things interesting and hints along with the rest of the spoilers so far that there could be a departure from tri-colored decks as the norm and we could see 2 color decks be a thing. UW control anyone?

[+1]: Look at the top card of your library. If it's a noncreature, nonland card, you may reveal it and put it into your hand:

The plus 1 ability is interesting as given the right deckbuilding constraints, it's pretty close to draw a card. In a typical control deck, you're playing anywhere from 26-28 lands so your chances of hitting are around 50/50, but if you play esper or jeskai, you get 12 dual lands for extra looks at pushing lands for actual deck selection which is nice. Any time you do draw cards is also pulling you pretty far ahead since you're generally playing for CA in UW and when you untap with this in play and hit, you drew a card for 0 mana on the turn. Also also, yet another card that plays excellently with courser of kruphix.

[-2]: When you cast your next instant o r sorcery spell from our hand this turn, it gains rebound:

Now this affect will bury the opponent. Rebounding a wrath is a virtual timewalk unless your opponent has a haste creature and you can generate crazy inevitability with rebuys on digs/cruises or even something simple like ojutais command for burst lifegain and CA. In a jeskai build, you're also killing your opponent pretty quickly with burn spells or ramping your board presence with goblins ad nausea. In Esper doing something like doubling on downfalls is also the easiest way to catch up on board by turning a downfall into a one-sided fated retribution by taking out multiple walkers.

[-9]: you get an emblem with "Your opponents can't cast noncreature spells:

This ult ranges from decent to game winning depending on the strategy your playing against. Locking your jeskai opponent out of burn spells or your control opponent out of anything is almost a sure win while the green creature decks mostly can ignore it since they just continue throwing bodies out there. Definitely a more variable ultimate compared to some we've seen in the past as your opponent greatly dictates how impactful this'll be.

Loyalty=6:

This is much more important then it looks. Since Narset doesn't protect herself, 6 loyalty is much more important then it would normally be. You're 2/3rds of the way to ultimate, you have the JAoT ult of just minusing 3 times, and you can simply absorb hits with narset and likely live to tell the tell. If your on the play and your opponent plays a turn 3 rabble you can actually play narset into it and if they don't have a follow up, narset will just absorb 6 damage for you and live. OBV not gonna happen most of the time, but it's worth mentioning that it's an option if you need to dig for spells while also wanting to throw a body on the board that will potentially gain you a bunch of life. Remember, it's not an easy decision for your opponent to just send a ton of damage against a card that may not even be threating depending on your hand but can also just end the game if you are holding gas.

As far as the decks I see narset seeing play in, it's actually a pretty wide spectrum. Everything from Jeskai Tokens to Esper control is a good home. With the reprinting of Dragon Fodder, you can actually build and creatureless jeskai since you now have 12 token makers making narset's hit rate go drastically up and ability to rebound tokens, draw spells and burn is a different angle that the token build didn't have before.

In the control decks, I'm not sure if they exactly needed this card, but they now have a ton more design space to work with and this lets them get on the board faster. No doubt, Shaheen Soorani will post an article in the next coming weeks of a Esper super friends with Sorin, Elspeth and Narset backed up by wraths, removal and card draw. Narset's particularly good in Esper because that deck actively wants a million scry lands and scry helps narset more consistnely hit. You also get a wider range of spells that appreciate Narset's minus 2 get the most utility out of the card.

I expect this card to be a slam dunk and to see Tier 1 play in multiple archetypes. Put THAT on the front page kiddos.
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Post #7 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:29 pm

1. This card doesn't dig. If it misses, you're drawing a land (or a creature).
2. (as Stardust noted) If your opponent has a critical mass of damage on board, they're going to continue killing you and ignore this. And there's no incentive for them to do anything other than that aside from the exact scenario of "I rebounded the Wrath I had in hand already, be it because I live in Magical Christmas Land or because I believed in the heart of the cards and either topdecked this or drew it last turn with +1"
3. The -2 ability offers you a very good range of effects. -BUT- it does this inconsistently, because that range of effects is entirely based around what you already have in-hand. There is also the important note that the delay on Rebound can be a real issue (versus straight duplication of a spell), as a rebounded Lightning Strike still allows a creature to attack you/Narset for a turn before you bolt it down.

Digging twice is the high point for you with this card, and having a deck where you can do that consistently is absolutely a great place for this card. Comparing this card to entirely different cards to say this card will thrive I don't think is very apt.

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Post #8 by LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:00 pm

1. even when you don't hit, you still have a 7 loyalty planeswalker in play and if they kill it, with damage, you got a bad lifegain spell which might still be good enough in a control deck and if they kill it with a spell, you're still even on card.

If your opponent has a critical mass of damage on board, before you have Narset, it's not like you don't have the choice of interacting with the board or just jamming narset. The option of jamming narset is GOOD because it makes your opponent have to make a choice. Planeswalkers are by far the hardest cards to play against by design and they open up opportunities for your opponents to make mistakes. Similar to faeries in that respect. They have to play pure odds and if they lose the die roll you can severely punish them. Or they can not be thinking on the right level and get wrecked anyways.

Lastly, calling rebound magic Christmas land misses the mark completely as if you don't have a spell in hand worth twincasting(aside from counters) you either misbuilt your deck or are likely losing anyways. It's still fine +ing with a chance to whiff if you have no better play, especially if you still have a good hand of reactive cards. All I see is ignoring of the fact that regardless of current outcome, on future turns, your opponent has to respect the fact that you have an advantage generating walker on board that has infinite starting loyalty.

As far as decklist goes, something along the lines of this.

[deck]4 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
1 Valorous Stance
1 Wild Slash
1 Jeskai Charm
4 Jeskai Ascendancy
4 Treasure Cruise
4 Raise the Alarm
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Dragon Fodder

2 Narset Transcendant
1 Ojutai's Command

1 Soulfire Grandmaster

4 Mystic Monastery
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Mountain
4 Flooded Strand
3 Battlefield Forge
3 Shivan Reef
1 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Triumph[/deck]
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Post #9 by TBuzzsaw » Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:22 pm

I really like it in a Jeskai tempo/token deck rather than a control deck. There's less targets you want to rebound in control.
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Post #10 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:08 pm

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:00 pm wrote:All I see is ignoring of the fact that regardless of current outcome, on future turns, your opponent has to respect the fact that you have an advantage generating walker on board that has infinite starting loyalty.

Why do they have to respect it? It's not doing - on its own - anything to affect the board or pressure your opponent. Infinite loyalty is meaningless if you're not ending the game with it. Outpost Seige does the same thing in terms of producing grinding card advantage, but it can't be attacked, doesn't discriminate against card types, but doesn't rebound and doesn't ultimate. I'm over simplifying because you keep the card with Narset and have to use it or lose it with Outpost Siege, but the comparison is kind of clear (especially with that list you posted).

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Post #11 by LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:15 pm

Because again, saying the card does nothing on it's own implies that it needs help from the cards in your hand/deck and if you don't have the cards the walker doesn't matter.

If you don't have the cards YOUR LOSING ANYWAYS. You're argument only makes sense in the context of your hand/deck is bad. If your opponent has narset and any reasonable hand, the narset is threatening. If they have narset and no hand, neither the card nor your opponent matters because you're goldfishing a punching bag.

If there deck is all spells, then narset is devastating each turn it's left in play. The most common mode of the card will almost always be minus 2 since that's the mode you have the greatest control over and will usually affect the board.
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Post #12 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:22 pm

To clarify:
Most of the time when someone is doing planeswalker abilities and you're choosing to attack the planeswalker versus the player, you account for stopping the planeswalker from being able to activate an ability, killing it because keeping it in play makes killing your opponent not possible, or your opponent will win the game outright if you do not kill the planeswalker.
Scenarios 1 and 3 are not relevant to me if I have the option of attacking you, because your removal spell that kills my creatures is still going to kill my creature whether I attack Narset or not. The ultimate will have different effects on different decks, but I'm looking at this from the perspective of an RG deck or a deck with siege rhinos (the ultimate is a big problem for control decks and I think Narset is a huge roadblock in a control matchup because of how devastating the ultimate is, as is the cards you may draw off of it).
So in what scenarios is Narset going to make it so I can't kill my opponent? If they draw wrath. If they draw a critical mass of token creatures I can't effectively battle through (though this can also be accomplished with Elspeth if we're making that argument, since Elspeth requires no additional cards or specific draws to win the game).

Narset feels well positioned against Sultai decks. A wrath is still going to make a heroic deck or a RG deck roll it's eyes whether you rebound it or not. You're still going to take the second attack from your opponent's other creature if you rebound a removal spell. If your opponent can't deal with 3 tokens, having 6 in play is just win-more.

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Post #13 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:27 pm

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:15 pm wrote:If you don't have the cards YOUR LOSING ANYWAYS. You're argument only makes sense in the context of your hand/deck is bad. If your opponent has narset and any reasonable hand, the narset is threatening. If they have narset and no hand, neither the card nor your opponent matters because you're goldfishing a punching bag.

Isn't the inverse of this statement the definition of win-more, though? "I didn't draw the cards so I lost/I drew the cards so I won" and then all effects modifying that are either win less or win more.

if your opponent is on all spells, like Sultai, Narset is a huge threat, no doubt. So does that mean she's an awesome sideboard card against such decks? Or do you keep her main as a limited Outpost Siege that occasionally makes your [SPELL] do its thing twice against decks that turn creatures sideways?

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Post #14 by LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:49 pm

Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:27 pm wrote:
LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:15 pm wrote:If you don't have the cards YOUR LOSING ANYWAYS. You're argument only makes sense in the context of your hand/deck is bad. If your opponent has narset and any reasonable hand, the narset is threatening. If they have narset and no hand, neither the card nor your opponent matters because you're goldfishing a punching bag.

Isn't the inverse of this statement the definition of win-more, though? "I didn't draw the cards so I lost/I drew the cards so I won" and then all effects modifying that are either win less or win more.

if your opponent is on all spells, like Sultai, Narset is a huge threat, no doubt. So does that mean she's an awesome sideboard card against such decks? Or do you keep her main as a limited Outpost Siege that occasionally makes your [SPELL] do its thing twice against decks that turn creatures sideways?


No, winmore is the card only does something when your winning and when your neutral or behind, it's generally bad. Narset's actively good in a neutral board by virtue of being a PW since they generally give you a cards worth of value every turn. When you're behind, it depends on how much time/mana you have wether narsets still good or bad. She's generally gonna be bad when behind against aggressive decks and slow, but good against more midrangey and control decks. If you're opponents on a siege rhino strat for example, if they have just a rhino in play, you're actually fine playing narset since you're 50/50 or better to hit off it and if they don't have the downfall or another rhino, narset does good work to catch you back up since most abzan midrange decks win by snowballing CA in board advantage and narset can buy back CA to neutralize board advantage slowly but inevitably. If it's a deck with rabblemaster and seeker in play, then you have to use other cards before playing narset most likely unless your life totals high enough where you can gamble and/or don't have the requisite cards in hand to fight back. Even then, you have the chance to lucksack into value scenarios.

In a deck like jeskai, narsets actually good against both aggressive and Controlling decks since jeskai has a ton of cheap burn to trade with the 2 drops letting you pull ahead later. I have no idea why you think this card is bad. You're saying words and making statements that make sense, but only from a flawed perspective. It's like you want every card to be jace the mindsculptor and do all the things all the time. All your examples generally ignore sequencing or over simply game states.

3 tokens is also a lot more then 6. 3 tokens and a jeskai ascendancy get stonewalled by an Elspeth. 6 tokens and the same kill an Elspeth dead.

A wrath resets a board against x-creature deck, but if they paced there cards, they rebuild next turn. A rebounded wrath is a pseudo timewalk if they don't have haste creatures or PWs to play into. In fact a rebounded wrath is actually a perilous vault affect only you don't have to pay life equal to whatever power they have in play to get the timewalk out of them which is absurd.
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Post #15 by LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:07 pm

For a winmore card, see wingmate Roc. It won the Pro Tour and since then has slowly disappeared from the metagame outside of abzan agro and even there it's being cut.
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Post #16 by Thrillho » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:42 pm

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:49 pm wrote:No, winmore is the card only does something when your winning and when your neutral or behind, it's generally bad. Narset's actively good in a neutral board by virtue of being a PW since they generally give you a cards worth of value every turn. When you're behind, it depends on how much time/mana you have wether narsets still good or bad. She's generally gonna be bad when behind against aggressive decks and slow, but good against more midrangey and control decks. If you're opponents on a siege rhino strat for example, if they have just a rhino in play, you're actually fine playing narset since you're 50/50 or better to hit off it and if they don't have the downfall or another rhino, narset does good work to catch you back up since most abzan midrange decks win by snowballing CA in board advantage and narset can buy back CA to neutralize board advantage slowly but inevitably. If it's a deck with rabblemaster and seeker in play, then you have to use other cards before playing narset most likely unless your life totals high enough where you can gamble and/or don't have the requisite cards in hand to fight back. Even then, you have the chance to lucksack into value scenarios.

But how is that different in a way that is better than, say, Outpost Siege or Chandra +0? The former, they cannot attack it. The latter ... is probably a bad example because that 1 damage isn't particularly impressive vs. gaining loyalty and having the card to keep as needed (though this seems less the case in your sample deck vs. an archtypal UW control deck).

How does "coin toss" draw a card "catch you up" on board vs a Rhino, aside from the obvious "draw into a wrath valorous stance" scenarios?

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:49 pm wrote:In a deck like jeskai, narsets actually good against both aggressive and Controlling decks since jeskai has a ton of cheap burn to trade with the 2 drops letting you pull ahead later. I have no idea why you think this card is bad. You're saying words and making statements that make sense, but only from a flawed perspective. It's like you want every card to be jace the mindsculptor and do all the things all the time. All your examples generally ignore sequencing or over simply game states.

How am I providing a flawed perspective when the words you're saying to me are "Narset is good against decks you claim it is bad against because other cards in my deck that aren't Narset are good against cards in those decks"? That sounds like cards in your deck are well positioned against cards in Heroic, and Narset has no impact on that. That doesn't mean Narset is bad. It just sounds like it does absolutely nothing on its own to win the matchup beyond +1ing into a Lightning Strike, meaning it doesn't sound particularly great in that specific matchup. Which is fine, that's not what I'm saying about Narset or saying it needs to be. And as far as I can tell, that's not what Narset is or is supposed to be.

I won't respond to the strawman of my comments.

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:49 pm wrote:3 tokens is also a lot more then 6. 3 tokens and a jeskai ascendancy get stonewalled by an Elspeth. 6 tokens and the same kill an Elspeth dead.

Unless your tokens have haste, you get 6 tokens over 2 turns, Elspeth makes 6 tokens over 2 turns, and you're at a stall that Elspeth eventually wins because she keeps making tokens barring outside interference from additional cards.

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:49 pm wrote:A wrath resets a board against x-creature deck, but if they paced there cards, they rebuild next turn. A rebounded wrath is a pseudo timewalk if they don't have haste creatures or PWs to play into. In fact a rebounded wrath is actually a perilous vault affect only you don't have to pay life equal to whatever power they have in play to get the timewalk out of them which is absurd.

One thing you definitively get over the x-creature deck is that coin-toss for drawing a card, which is a definitive boon in that scenario and gives the Wrath + Rebound experience legs. It should be noted that neither you nor your opponent get to put creatures into play effectively and you're both drawing a card and gaining a land drop/playing non-creatures (which the Narset side of the board is favored with because of her ultimate, -2, and ability to draw more of than the other player).

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Post #17 by LP, of the Fires » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:19 am

Eh, I'm done arguing. You're convinced that the card is bad, but I gain nothing by trying to prove it to you otherwise and it's not like you play magic either way so I'm just wasting my time.

The card is good and accept it or don't, I lose nothing either way.
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Post #18 by rcwraspy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:51 am

With scry and fetches still in the format you still have a fair amount of control over your top deck, to the point where the +1 gets much better. And we need to be honest - she protects herself. She doesn't protect YOU - the opponent can ignore her and swing at you - but 7 effective loyalty after the first activation is equivalent to protecting itself.
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Post #19 by photodyer » Thu Mar 05, 2015 7:38 am

I'm just theorycrafting here, but this card design is one of the most solid I've seen yet. The card does pretty much everything a tempo player wants--it buys time and can become a steamroller of CA if left unchecked. No, it's not going to come down and stop the onslaught of an aggressive deck--unless of course it's rebounding bounce or removal to jack the opponent's board state ;) Yes, you can ignore it if you have lethal on the board--it's not designed as a directly defensive card, but as a TEMPO card. Once it hits the field coming from a well-designed deck, one of two things happens--either you were in a position to kill them before the card hit and you do so, or your left facing a clock against a deck that's likely full of efficient answers that's going to soon outstrip your threats and bury you in CA.

And flavorwise, the design is remarkable...no, it doesn't have direct self-defense ability-wise, but comes down with loyalty enough to make it hard to beat down (and thus offering the potential of pseudo-lifegain) and with onstensibly a 3-turn clock to locking the opponent out of burn and removal. I HATE UW Control with a purple passion, but I have to applaud the design team on what is unquestionably a beautifully-designed tempo enabler.

Personally, I want to see what this can do for black-based Esper...dropping new Sidisi to roadblock Rhinos and other ground forces and then tutor up Narset/Dig/Cruise to start chaining draw spells full of answers seems pretty damned fun...
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Post #20 by jsilv » Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:57 am

Narset is a PW that's absurd when neutral or ahead assuming you don't brick for the rest of the game. It's less match-up dependent than Ashiok was and even though I think some of the gushing is overlooking that this card isn't a slam dunk 4-of, it's only a tad bit worse than Jace, AOT and miles ahead of Jace, Memory Adept (which saw play).

Yeah congrats guys, you figured out that a 4 CMC PW isn't going to save you if you're way behind on board. This isn't good against Rabblemaster on the draw, perhaps the decks using Narset should have a fair number of cheap removal spells then. Even JTMS doesn't save you if when you end up miles behind on board. The fact that you can jam it into an on-board Siege Rhino or something and your PW isn't guaranteed dead is a bigger deal than you guys give it credit for.

edit: As far as decks go, it's probably a 2-3 in anything UWx that wants to be controlling. It'll probably help make Esper a real thing and straight UW gets a way to actually get ahead in the long-game. In Jeskai it may end up worse than Outpost Siege or Jeskai Ascendancy, but the Rebound thing is hardly MCL in that deck and she's got enough loyalty to be worth trying.

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Post #21 by rcwraspy » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:00 pm

Thoughts on eternal applicability? People are jamming mentor in vintage and this feels like it would pair well.
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Post #22 by Kaitscralt » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:19 pm

nu
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Post #23 by Thrillho » Thu Mar 05, 2015 4:25 pm

LP, of the Fires » Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:19 pm wrote:Eh, I'm done arguing. You're convinced that the card is bad, but I gain nothing by trying to prove it to you otherwise and it's not like you play magic either way so I'm just wasting my time.

The card is good and accept it or don't, I lose nothing either way.

I think we're essentially arguing over minutae as opposed to something worthwhile. I think the card will see some play but it's not very good, you think it's the foundation of archetypes and is very good. I wouldn't dein to call this card bad.
We'll see where it goes.
I don't think this card has older format applications unless there's some kind of rebound combo.


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