DevelopingBig Red in Modern

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Toblakai
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Big Red in Modern

Post #1 by Toblakai » Mon Aug 18, 2014 7:56 pm

I'm planning on taking this to a local FNM this week. Thankfully, no one in my area has Kiki-Jiki.

[deck=Big Red 1.0]
Beats
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Koth of the Hammer
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
2 Pyroclasm
3 Anger of the Gods

Other Permanents
4 Coldsteel Heart
4 Blood Moon

Lands
2 Scrying Sheets
19 Snow-Covered Mountain
[/deck]


[deck=Big Red 2.0]Beats
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Koth of the Hammer
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Batterskull

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
3 Mind Stone
2 Pyroclasm
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Blood Moon

Lands
2 Scrying Sheets
21 Snow-Covered Mountain[/deck]

My SB is shaping up to include Eidolon of the Great Revel, Relic of Progenitus, Combust and Torpor Orb. If, for some reason, I find the Moon effects extraneous, I'd swap Moons for Eidolons. You want to get 4
damage at instant speed for a single red mana. A non-snow build might use Tectonic Edge in place of Scrying Sheets, Flame Slash in place of Skred. I think snow might be the best way to go. While the Reckoner combo is fun, it isn't something I'd recommend you rely on as a win condition. I wasn't quite sure which build to stick with, so I thought I'd post both and let everyone make suggestions etc. Another interesting addition to the deck is a Godo engine with Godo, Bandit Warlord, Batterskull and perhaps one of the Scars of Mirrodin swords.

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Post #2 by GoblinWarchief » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:04 pm

Yeah, i was really missing a skred red thread !
I built this deck recently and i currently run the following :

[deck]4 Skred
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
4 Blood Moon
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Volcanic Fallout
3 Koth of the Hammer
3 Stormbreath Dragon
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Faithless Looting
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyrite Spellbomb

21 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Scrying Sheets
1 Mouth of Ronom




2 Anger of the Gods
2 Cryoclasm
1 Peak Eruption
1 Sowing Salt
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Dismember
2 Combust
3 Shatterstorm
1 Shattering Blow
[/deck]

Looking at your lists. i think you have too much creature removal. You need something against midrange/control, this is why i have the full 4 moons plus 4 molten rains which can
destroy the few basic lands they manage to get. Relic is useful against lot of decks and spellbomb is for pro-red creatures... since i don't know what i will face, i decided for a split between main and side. I use faithless looting to dig a bit and it is very good in this deck because you can just discard redudant copies of planeswalkers /sweepers or cards you don't need like moons against mono colored decks or sweepers against control.

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Post #3 by Toblakai » Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:40 pm

I'm thinking of losing my Reckoners for Figure of Destiny. It passes the Bolt Test whereas Reckoner fails. Yes, you get Reckoner's damage effect, but you're still losing a body in a deck with precious few. Losing Reckoner could constitute a major loss of tempo. Molten Rain seems powerful in this deck. How's it been in testing?

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Post #4 by GoblinWarchief » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:31 pm

Molten Rain is very good in my opinion. As i mentioned , it can destroy the only basic land they have under a blood moon.... and in general is good to mess with people manabases.
About figure of destiny , i don't know. It gives you something to do on turn one which is good , but it isn't sinergistic with the deck in general , because it can die to your own sweepers and is a worse blocker than reckoner. It's also a major tempo loss when bolted in response to becoming a 4/4 , because you already spent 5 mana on it (1 to cast, 1 to turn it into a 2/2, 3 to turn it into a 4/4). I do think it is a good card but i don't know if it fits the deck ..... as a one of it can't be dangerous i guess.

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Post #5 by Toblakai » Tue Aug 19, 2014 7:59 pm

A deck that relies exclusively on its sweepers would require you to be careful about how you use Figure. Your point about bolt in response to becoming 4/4, I know that this can happen in response to something like Kargan Dragonlord since Level Up is sorcery speed. This is my friend's take on the deck. It is a bit more $$$ due to the fetches:

[DECK=Skred Red 3.0]
Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Demigod of Revenge

Planeswalkers
4 Koth of the Hammer

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Magma Jet
4 Anger of the Gods

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
17 Snow-Covered Mountain

Sideboard
2 Sowing Salt
3 Torpor Orb
2 Combust
2 Vandalblast
4 Blood Moon
2 Relic of Progenitus
[/DECK]

You can imagine his deck stood out from the countless others due to his lack of Reckoners. I can kind of see where he was coming from. With Figure, you're putting out a body that
has to be dealt with. I think this is also what you're essentially doing with Reckoner (barring Skred tricks or Blasphemous Act). Plus, letting your opponent build up a field while doing things with Figure/Lavamancer makes your Anger (or sweeper of choice) more potent. One issue he has dealt with is mana flooding. To that end, I think he could use a singleton Mouth of Ronom, or maybe scaling back to 23 lands for a couple of mana rocks of some kind. Coldsteel Heart or Mind Stone, whichever. I would lean toward Heart just for the colored mana and snow count.

I also came across an older Skred deck from late 2012/early 2013 that may be of interest:

[DECK=Skred 0.0]
Creatures
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Ash Zealot
3 Kargan Dragonlord
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Thundermaw Hellkite

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
3 Red Sun's Zenith
3 Koth of the Hammer
1 Blood Moon

Lands
4 Arid Mesa
1 Scalding Tarn
20 Snow-Covered Mountain
[/DECK]

This was taken from an older Modern daily. A
progenitor of this build, Disintegrate Deck Wins, skipped Zealot and Magus in favor of 4 Simian Spirit Guide and a fourth Dragonlord. It also utilized Molten Rain in the mainboard. I'm not as big a fan of this one because KDL requires a greater investment than Figure, and I'd rather drop Stormbreath for its protection or something that kind of punishes discard, like Demigod.

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Post #6 by Toblakai » Thu Aug 21, 2014 5:31 am

Inspired by Ham's dissection of the Red mid range strategy, I present a Modernized version of an old classic, Dos Rakis:

[DECK=Dos Rakis]
Creatures: 20
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Kargan Dragonlord
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells: 12
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Dismember
4 Searing Blaze

Planeswalkers: 4
4 Koth of the Hammer

Lands: 24
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blood Crypt
1 Graven Cairns
1 Swamp
7 Mountain[/DECK]

It was hard for me to ditch Anger of the Gods and Boros Reckoner, but I think this deck might be a bit better for having lost those cards. Guide is something I had to try, despite my belief that he might not be the best in this deck.

[Deck=Big Skred]
Creatures
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Demigod of Revenge

Planeswalkers
4 Koth of the Hammer

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4
Skred
1 Magma Jet
3 Anger of the Gods

Lands
2 Scrying Sheets
21 Snow-Covered Mountain[/DECK]

This is a snow-oriented build that incorporates Figure, giving me something to do early in the game.

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Post #7 by hamfactorial » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:38 pm

The Dos Rakis concept was good because nearly every creature had haste, the synergy between humans and Falkenrath Aristocrat was amazing, and it could reliably sideboard into a bigger deck (4 Thundermaw Hellkite and a 25th land in for game 2) when needed. It also didn't have to fight combo, so tapping out was an attractive option.

In Modern, you're punished for tapping out by Twin, Pod and fringe combo like Ad Nauseam. Your threats should be cheap, and your removal cheaper.

The 4 Stormbreath Dragon are great if you're living to turn 5, but you really have to ensure that you pack sweepers, single target removal, and enough land to cast them on time.

If you just want to be an aggro deck with a big finisher, look to cap your curve at 4 so you can run less land and more removal.

My Dos Rakis concept -

[Deck=Dos Rakis Modern]Land:24
4 Blood Crypt
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3
Mountain
1 Swamp

Creatures:24
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Figure of Destiny
4 Dark Confidant
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat

Spells:12
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Slaughter Pact
4 Searing Blaze[/deck]

I favor Slaughter Pact in this deck so you can tap out on T3 while providing protection against Twin / Pod combo.

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Post #8 by hamfactorial » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:39 pm

I'd prefer Figure or Kargan Dragonlord in place of Goblin Guide, personally, but haste is hard to argue.

Kargan is a human, and I know you want to go big. When he's good, he's very good.

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Post #9 by Toblakai » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:20 pm

Do you suppose KDL in place of Bob would make the deck a bit too top-heavy?

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Post #10 by hamfactorial » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:03 pm

No, I think KDL is fine in place of Confidant if you're looking to be really low curve aggro. If anything, maybe you don't need Flamespeaker and Confidant in the same deck.

I like KDL because he assumes ultimate form more quickly than FoD. Plus, you can get him there 1-2 mana at a time, leaving mana up for necessary removal, where FoD requires you to have 3 and 6 mana available all at once.

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Post #11 by Toblakai » Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:31 pm

I'm enjoying [card]Tezzeret's Gambit[/card]. More gas and Koth pushed to his ultimate. Also synergizes with Chandra, Pyromaster. I've also scrapped Scrying Sheets for Valakut and Boseiju, Who Shelters All, to push through Molten Rain.

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Post #12 by rcwraspy » Tue Aug 26, 2014 8:05 pm

Looks like someone else reads Steven Erikson novels :)
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Thanks to NerdBoyWonder for the amazing sig!

redthirst wrote:Son, I want you to know that no matter what happens between your mother and me, it's all your fault.

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Post #13 by Toblakai » Tue Aug 26, 2014 9:36 pm

I'm on Dust of Dreams right now. :D

Here is my current Skred, which incorporates some of the ideas I mentioned earlier. It aims to play a far more controlling game.

[DECK]
Lands
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
20 Snow-Covered Mountain

Removal
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Anger of the Gods

Disruption
4 Blood Moon
4 Molten Rain

Card Draw
3 Magma Jet
2 Tezzeret's Gambit
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Win Conditions
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Koth of the Hammer
4 Stormbreath Dragon[/DECK]

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Post #14 by GoblinWarchief » Mon Sep 01, 2014 2:45 am

With Sarkhan Dragonspeaker we now have the luxury of choosing between 3 big dragon finishers ...... will he be better than stormbreath dragon ?

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Post #15 by Toblakai » Mon Sep 01, 2014 3:42 am

I don't quite think so. Stormbreath, at the very least, can't be removed with Path. I still plan to work in a single copy, as I love the aspects of red that the new Sarkhan embodies: dragons, spot-burn, and risk. I have raised this in the Blood Moon thread, but I'm wondering how feasible Blood Moon will be after the new fetches enter the format. Theoretically, it gives multicolor decks the luxury of relying less on shocks. This could be problematic for us, so I am considering swapping the Moons for Stone Rains. Warchief, what do you think of Moltensteel Dragon. Too vulnerable to be worth it in Modern, or a better substitute for Boros Reckoner? Moltensteel doesn't get hit by Abrupt Decay, and it has more evasion thanks to flying. I'm not sure if paying 4 life is too much of a liability. I ask because I used 4 of Moltensteel in my Dragon Stompy, and it was really good there.

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Post #16 by GoblinWarchief » Mon Sep 01, 2014 1:16 pm

I also think stormbreath is better than sarkhan because indestructible doesn't prevent him from dying to path and dismember. But having the option to do a flame slash with him is very nice so i think he deserves a spot as a one of in the deck.

I don't think blood moon will be weakened at all. Look at legacy... they have all the fetches from a lot of time and people don't use them to play more basics. Greedy manabases will always run rampant, both in legacy and modern, because people don't usually expect to face blood moon. I will continue running 4 moons alongside 4 molten rains so that i can destroy the basic lands in case they fetch them.

Moltensteel dragon is a nice card , but i prefer running reckoner. I approach skred red as a control deck , and in control paying 4 life can be a problem. I am also concerned about tarmogoyf that can beat us if we don't see skred. Having reckoner is good because you now have
8 solutions to goyf. I also like the sinergy with sweepers... i run volcanic fallout or pyroclasm maindeck over anger of the gods because i don't want my reckoner to die from my own cards. i know he dies to abrupt decay but this is not a good reason to dismiss him since basically our whole deck is good against decay, presenting a lot of 4-5 mana threats.
You could make an argument for running moltensteel in place of the other dragons, but i wouldn't because haste is good and they are more resilient to removal.

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Post #17 by Toblakai » Tue Sep 02, 2014 1:59 am

Well said, Warchief. Thanks. I've put in a preorder for 2 Sarkhans. I'll get 2 more once the set is released.

[deck=Dragonspeaker]
Beats
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Koth of the Hammer
2 Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker
4 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
4 Magma Jet
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Volcanic Fallout
2 Tezzeret's Gambit
3 Blood Moon

Ramp
2 Coldsteel Heart
2 Mind Stone

Lands
1 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
22 Snow-Covered Mountain
[/DECK]

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Post #18 by Toblakai » Sat Sep 13, 2014 1:31 am

Bumping with a recentish list that made top eight in Italy :http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8056&d=246443&f=MO

What stands out is the maindeck Blasphemous Acts and Shrine of Burning Rage. While I have been very critical of Magus of the Moon's viability, I think it might have a place as a stall tactic. To improve its efficacy, a couple of swords--your meta choice--could probably work out well. I might give that a shot, removing the Blasphemous Acts for a couple of swords. Pithing Needle looks great in the side, especially for the Tron MU. Shut off their Oblivion Stone, which is a fine compliment to Blood Moon/Sowing Salt mana base disruption.

EDIT: Magi efficacy as a speedbump isn't work it. I would rather have had Molten Rain.

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Post #19 by vieko » Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:11 pm

This list did fairly well for me this weekend:

[deck=Scrying Sheets]
22 LAND
20 Snow-Covered Mountain
2 Scrying Sheets

4 PLANESWALKER
3 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

16 CREATURE
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Ash Zealot
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Vexing Devil

10 INSTANT
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Skred
2 Volcanic Fallout

1 SORCERY
1 Pyroclasm

5 ARTIFACT
3 Coldsteel Heart
2 Shrine of Burning Rage

2 ENCHANTMENT
2 Blood Moon

SIDEBOARD
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dragon's Claw
2 Spellskite
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Shattering Spree
1 Torpor Orb
1 Shatterstorm
1 Blood Moon
1 Aura Barbs
2 Relic of Progenitus
[/deck]

I feel it needs to be more proactive agains combo decks (Scapeshift specially), going to try transforming with the sideboard (burn in / sweeps out) for Game 2. Thoughts?
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire."
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Post #20 by Toblakai » Tue Jan 06, 2015 9:16 pm

I like to come into G1 burn/sweeps until I get Koth/Sarkhan/Dragon.


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