AggroRx Burn

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Post #1321 by Purp » Wed Aug 26, 2015 1:30 am

I don't get how skullcrack is better. The guy who topped 8, arya, is a local player who is always on red with me. He swears by 19 lands
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Post #1322 by Khaospawn » Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:29 am

It's a lot better when you're facing aggressive decks like Merfolk and Affinity. And pretty much in games where your life total matters (which is LOT more than you would think).
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Post #1323 by magicdownunder » Wed Aug 26, 2015 4:40 am

Khaospawn » Wed Aug 26, 2015 12:29 pm wrote:It's a lot better when you're facing aggressive decks like Merfolk and Affinity. And pretty much in games where your life total matters (which is LOT more than you would think).


+Dromoka's Command is a card
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Post #1324 by Khaospawn » Wed Aug 26, 2015 11:13 am

Yeah, that too.
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Post #1325 by magicdownunder » Thu Aug 27, 2015 3:41 am

Valdarith » Wed Aug 26, 2015 9:03 am wrote:I've been playing this with a bit of success on MTGO. I think if you're wanting to play Atarka's Command, this is the kind of shell you want to play it in.

[deck]
Creatures (21)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Kird Ape
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Young Pyromancer

Spells (19)
2 Mutagenic Growth
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
2 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze

Lands (20)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
3 Stomping Ground
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
3 Path to Exile
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Forked Bolt
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Deflecting Palm
3 Molten Rain
[/deck]

This is pretty close to what made the top 8 of SCG Charlotte and also close to what Patrick Sullivan has been running on MTGO. I know it's bordering on a Small Zoo list but I do think it's close enough to pure Burn that it's worth discussing here. I initially had it exactly like his list but noticed I was losing quite a bit to my own Eidolon of the Great Revel due to having to fetch shocks the vast majority of the time. I tried Abbot of Keral Keep but was not impressed so now I'm giving Young Pyromancer a go with decent results. He's particularly good with Atarka's Command and I have lived the dream of going battle cry mode with multiple Elemental tokens on the field.

I must admit that I have underestimated the versatility of Atarka's Command. I've won a few games vs Affinity where the reach mode turned into a total blowout. I didn't realize just how good it was against that deck, but then again my opponents could just be bad walking into it with me having mana open.

The nice thing about going more creature heavy is that you aren't quite as soft to Dragon's Claw and Kor Firewalker. Going wide against these cards is a legitimate strategy and I have pushed through both of these cards in testing rather easily.

I wish I could get Patrick Sullivan's opinions on the list and his testing results thusfar. Might be time to create a Twitter account...


My issue with Small Zoo and Nacatl Burn is that it just seems to improve our strong MUs and weaken our weak MUs.

Admittedly the said strong decks do seem like the decks to beat right now, I still would prefer to take the middle ground with more targeted burn over creatures.
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Post #1326 by Valdarith » Thu Aug 27, 2015 12:34 pm

Well, some bad matchups get a LOT better and almost favorable. Affinity feels stronger to me, but I don't have a large enough sample size to say definitively that it's better. You're also less susceptible to the typical Burn hate cards, and I'd bet the percentage you gain from that is roughly equivalent or even greater than the percentage you're giving up in your "good" matchups.

As a Grixis Control pilot I would say that the matchup is a lot worse for me when my opponent is swarming the board with one drops rather than relying on spells to kill me. I only have so many Lightning Bolts and Terminates, whereas postboard I'll be leaning on Dispels, Negates, and Duress to clear the burn spells.
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Post #1327 by magicdownunder » Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:12 pm

I count Grixis Control in the Good MU piles, which Small Zoo and Nacatl Burn just further improves.

The MUs which aren't great for burn which creatures don't help in are builds like Merfolk, Zoo, Company and it ilk (I personally wouldn't prefer more creatures vs Robots and would rather have more targeted burn).

Jund/Junk which are count as a good MU get much worst when you include more creatures into the fray as well.
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Post #1328 by Whole » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:52 am

Hey guys, I'm back playing Burn. I tried playing Affinity, but I just don't enjoy the deck. So is Nactl Burn just better than other variants now? Also, Josh Utter Leyton ran no Eidolon and 4 Nactl, but online, people are running both...going up to 16 creatures. 16 creatures seems like too much to me, but what are y'all thoughts?

edit: also, my sideboard is still the same; not sure how to change it

2 Path to Exile
3 Kor Firewalkers
2 Searing Blood
2 Molten Rain
4 D. Revelry
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Torpor Orb.
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Post #1329 by magicdownunder » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:57 am

Eidolon's are much better then Nactl (in burn) so I'll run both if I plan on running them at all.
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Post #1330 by Platypus » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:01 pm

Right, I'm having serious doubts about running Grixis Delver at next weekend's WMCQ. Which means, I'm looking at Burn again.

What lists would you run against a wide metagame (I can expect all the tier 1 decks in greater quantities, and the rest in lower).
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Post #1331 by Valdarith » Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:09 pm

I've been playing my Zoo list a bit more. Swapped out the Pyromancers for Abbots again but went down to two and put in a third Lightning Helix. I've enjoyed the extra reach and right now I feel like the Abbots are ultimately better since the deck wants to be fast and not grind. I do wish Chain Lightning was legal though.
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Post #1332 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:26 am

Platypus » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:01 pm wrote:Right, I'm having serious doubts about running Grixis Delver at next weekend's WMCQ. Which means, I'm looking at Burn again.

What lists would you run against a wide metagame (I can expect all the tier 1 decks in greater quantities, and the rest in lower).


I like Lee Shi Tian's 2015 World Championship list he didn't perform that well since it ended up getting crushed by Bogles but I still think its a great list (aside from the SB's which I think is a mess and don't understand).
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Post #1333 by Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:51 am

What don't you understand about the sideboard?

Serious question. It sounds like I'm being a sarcastic asshole but I'm not. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. :shrug:
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Post #1334 by Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:52 am

His deck is almost a few cards different from mine actually. I just squeezed in a coupe of Forked Bolts in the main though.
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Post #1335 by Valdarith » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:13 am

I don't quite understand the 3/1 split on Revelry and Smash. I think the fourth Revelry will win you more games across the field than the extra damage and nongreen requirement on Smash.
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Post #1336 by Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:15 am

I'm doing the exact same thing, believe or not. It's a hedge in the Affinity matchup. And believe or not, it comes in handy against Tron, where they can T3 a Karn and exile your Stomping Ground.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

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Post #1337 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:41 am

Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 12:51 pm wrote:What don't you understand about the sideboard?

Serious question. It sounds like I'm being a sarcastic asshole but I'm not. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. :shrug:


Just the card numbers, burn doesn't have any card draw so running many 1x and 2x seems unfocused to me.

The cards themselves seem fine with me :yes: I'm just accustom to people metagaming the SB hard during these large paper events (online - I'll say his choices are fine since we're in the dark).
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Post #1338 by Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:52 am

The singleton's seem weird when you look at it on paper, but don't forget that the number one rule about sideboarding with R/x Aggro: don't dilute your gameplan too much postboard.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

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Post #1339 by Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:03 am

IMO, I don't think that there is much of a difference between a 1-of and a 2-of in a deck. Like, if you really want to see a card, you'll play it as a 3 or 4-of.

Think about it - is there really that much of a difference between having a single copy of Deflecting Palm and a 2-of? You play it once and they'll play around it forever. You really only want 1. Same with Shard Volley. 2 is acceptable in the main, but more often than not, you'll only play 1.

Also, sometimes the singletons are there to supplement existing numbers of a certain card type. Take the whole 3/1 split on Revelry and Smash - you want it mainly for killing artifacts. Against Tron and Affinity, the 1st Smash is way better than the 4th Revelry most of the time. What enchantments are you really trying to kill at this point? The deck has gotten a lot better at fighting Leyline these days and Twin players are wise to the Revelry tech. Or take Bogles - 3 Revelry and 1 Palm is probably all you want anyway.

With Twin, 1 Path and 1 Rending Volley is probably enough. It's better than just playing 2 Path anyway.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

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Post #1340 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 01, 2015 11:55 am

Here is the list I'm testing which has netted me 2x 3-0 and 1x 2-1 so far:

[deck=MDU's Delta Burn]Lands 19
2 Arid Mesa
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sacred Foundry
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Mountain
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures 14
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Grim Lavamancer

Burns 27
4 Bump in the Night
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
2 Skullcrack
2 Lightning Helix

Sideboard 15
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Skullcrack
2 Path to Exile
2 Wear // Tear
2 Self-Inflicted Wound
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Kor Firewalker[/deck]

Lots of 1cc spells so that I can quickly unload my hand making Ensnaring Bridge more effective and also the flashback from Bump is great during those long grinding moments.

MOCS10 seems to standard (which will be new standard) so its something worth grinding for if you want to experience the metagame against a competent field.
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Post #1341 by Khaospawn » Tue Sep 01, 2015 1:58 pm

No Rakdos Charm?
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Post #1342 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:37 pm

I really like Charm vs Robots, Merfolk to punish Master (and vial + Spellkite) and vs Company to punish voice + Company spam but I couldn't find the space in the SB.

I would definitely run charm in Jund Burn though.
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Post #1343 by Whole » Tue Sep 01, 2015 3:41 pm

do y'all side out Eidolon vs Merfolk? Is it a play/draw thing?
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Post #1344 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:40 pm

I board it out everytime due to my fear of vial ruining my day... not sure if that is correct though Merfolk is a rough MU (which is why I'm testing Bridge).
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Post #1345 by GoblinWarchief » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:33 pm

I board him out just on the draw. i find that on the play the best way to win is just tempo them out with early creatures (i know this also because i played only goblins in modern for like 2 years when i didn't have fetches nor shocks, and i never lost against merfolks despite not having piledriver yet), because a lot of their early plays (cursecatcher vial spreading seas) are just ridiculously bad against an early rush of creatures.
Another thing i do is just keep in the deck as many spells that only cost one colored mana as possible, because spreading seas is probably their best card against us. If i have to chose boarding out boros charm or skullcrack, for example, i usually keep in skullcrack. Of course there are some double red spells that are too good not to play like searing effects.

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Post #1346 by isezumi » Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:28 pm

What is the general consensus about Abbot in RWg Burn?
Grim lavamancer always dies before I can actually use his ability, so wa thinking about swapping them out for Abbots.

Also, what is the correct number for volcanic fallout and should it only be restricted to the SB?
I fear people might go mass affinity/bogles come WMCQ after Worlds was full of them as well.
What is the best way to go about living end?

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Post #1347 by Khaospawn » Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:57 pm

I wouldn't play Abbot in Burn.

1-2 Fallouts are good in the board.

Just burn the hell out of Living End. They do a ton of damage to themselves from cycling.
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Post #1348 by magicdownunder » Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:14 am

Abbot is quite bad in modern (he really needed haste) - you'll find he just ends up being cantrip + ooze or goyf support, Living End is a good MU so like Khaospawn said just burn away.

You could MD 1-2x Fallout over the hedge places where Shard or Helix or the 4th Blaze goes if you think your meta requires them over-wise just 2 in the SB max since your space is limited.

@GoblinWarchief: That does make sense, if they grow your going to lose very quickly so maxing on repeatable damage and play shoot the fish in the barrel seems good.

- - - -

Been testing Jund Burn so far I have a 2-1 (lost to a jund burn mirror (yeah other crazies are testing jund burn as well) which I missed played) and 3-0 another (beating Merfolk in one of them, suck on that fish).

[deck=MDU's Jund Burn]Lands 20
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground

Creatures 15
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Grim Lavamancer

Burns 25
4 Bump in the Night
4 Atarka's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Shard Volley
3 Searing Blaze

Sideboard 15
1 Rakdos Charm
2 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Dragon's Claw
2 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Self-Inflicted Wound
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Ensnaring Bridge[/deck]

Exquisite Firecraft might not be that necessary, its just that Grixis (Twin, Control and Delver) are really common online so I figured I might as well.... though [card]Kolaghan's Command[/card] could be a better option for its strengths vs Folk and Bots.
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Post #1349 by Valdarith » Thu Sep 03, 2015 1:10 pm

How has three Grim Lavamancer been? I've only ever tried two because they are so bad in multiples, but at least if the first one dies you have some insurance.
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Post #1350 by Khaospawn » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:30 pm

3 is good when Affinity and Merfolk are everywhere. :D
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Post #1351 by Valdarith » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:24 pm

That it is.
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Post #1352 by isezumi » Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:46 pm

MDU, how are the Bots and Fish MUs without a sweeper like volcanic fallout?

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Post #1353 by Khaospawn » Thu Sep 03, 2015 7:40 pm

Still winnable, but the sweepers help. Although sometimes the Fallout still isn't enough when they drop enough lords or Ravager gets crazy with the cheese whiz.
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Rx Burn

Post #1354 by Valdarith » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:01 pm

I've seen so much Affinity and decks with small dudes lately that I've frequently sided in 12 cards against them. My board is THAT lopsided.
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Rx Burn

Post #1355 by magicdownunder » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:38 am

Valdarith » Thu Sep 03, 2015 11:10 pm wrote:How has three Grim Lavamancer been? I've only ever tried two because they are so bad in multiples, but at least if the first one dies you have some insurance.


Like Khaos said they're mainly for Bots and Folk but I'm running 4x Commands and 2x Shards to make them slightly more decent in multiples.

isezumi » Fri Sep 04, 2015 4:46 am wrote:MDU, how are the Bots and Fish MUs without a sweeper like volcanic fallout?


Again like Khaos said - the MU still works and sweepers require many things to be working in your favor to work in those MUs.

I basically do what Val does and board in 4-9 SB cards...
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Rx Burn

Post #1356 by GoblinWarchief » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:21 am

I won a tarmogoyf in a 20 people event, deck is the same i posted last times, i just swap sideboard cards basing on what i expect to face.
After losing the first round to uwr geist due to horrible misplays i made, i managed to refocus and beat a bant control brew, bant midrange with geist (don't know why there were all these bant decks), grixis control, esper mentor, merfols and grixis midrange (with lavamancers snapcasters pyromancers and tasigurs).
I have to remember not to play too conservatively... sometimes i didn't cast turn 2 eidolon because i wanted to keep up skullcrack/command against timely reinforcements/helix, but usually you just can't afford that. i just have to jam my threats and don't be afraid of their sideboard cards.
I will look for someone willing to trade an imperial recruiter for my tarmo XD i need recruiter for edh and maybe legacy if i ever get to play that format again

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Rx Burn

Post #1357 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 08, 2015 1:02 pm

Nicely done GoblinWarchief, UWr is an oppressive MU.

I've been playing this list for the time being with mixed results (1-1x2, 2-1x2 and 3-0x1) the main purpose for the cantrips is to try and get away with a lower land count:

[deck=MDU's JundTrip Burn]Lands 17
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
2 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain

Creatures 11
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
3 Spark Elemental

Cantrips 10
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Street Wraith

Burns 20
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Rift Bolt
4 Shard Volley
4 Lava Spike

Pumps 2
2 Become Immense

Sideboard 15
3 Searing Blaze
2 Searing Blood
2 Mountain
1 Murderous Cut
3 Hooting Mandrills
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Rending Volley
2 Destructive Revelry[/deck]

What makes this deck different to the old failed cantrip decks is the inclusion of Monastery Swiftspear and delve cards - currently I'm really considering running a Hooting Mandrills MD s maybe 1/1 split with Become Immense which will allows for one additional card in the SB (maybe a 4th Blaze or something which REALLY **** with burn).
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Rx Burn

Post #1358 by Valdarith » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:19 pm

Wow that's greedy. At what point do you just run Zooicide? It seems like a worse version of it.

I can't believe I forgot about Spark Elemental. I was brewing with Abbot awhile ago and was looking for more 1 cmc spells. It seems like a perfect fit for an Abbot list.
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Rx Burn

Post #1359 by magicdownunder » Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:42 pm

I was thinking about Zooicide but that deck just folds to removal, I figured I'll just copy Zooicide cept with burn which is slightly harder to deal with.

- - -

I played an interesting Abbot list a few days back - it was just RB with Lilly, discards and removal (including Bolt and Command) its main wincon seemed to be Abbot and Grim.
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Rx Burn

Post #1360 by Valdarith » Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:56 pm

I was thinking the same thing re: RB deck.
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