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Post #1441 by magicdownunder » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:30 am

.......Sooooo Tunnel Ignus as a middle finger vs Bloom and Scapeshift? Yes? No? Too cute?
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Post #1442 by Pedrobear » Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:30 am

Burn is already a bad matchup for Scapeshift so I don't see why you want to put more cards against them.
And for Bloom that would just slow them a little bit to their plan B with Pact.

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Post #1443 by Khaospawn » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:19 am

magicdownunder » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:29 pm wrote:Burn vs Aggro: I actually think aggro (Zoo, Merfolk, WU or G stompy) is a poor MU for burn, its not a dominate part of the league (in accordance to goldfish) or 8Ms (during my timezone) thank goodness, but I'm ok with running 1-2 bridges just to autowin those MUs.

Grim + Delve: Of course you wouldn't run delve with grim, its just another option if your on the creature route.

Are you not running a full set of Blazes?

Zoo can be hit or miss sometimes depending on your position. Sometimes you're on the draw when they get that triple 1-Drop play into Command and just roll you over. Sometimes not. It usually gets a little easier when you can bring in removal options postboard. Especially against Stompy, but that deck is hardly a thing anyways.

Merfolk is really tough when they have a Vial opener into Seas into Kira into Master. Barring that sequencing, I usually have a decent time against them. Path and Volley help postboard.

I'm assuming by UW, you really mean GW? That can be a tough one, since they have so many angles of attack and disruption. Thalia and Arbiter+Ghost Quarter can really hinder the amount of Burn you can play. Bridge won't even help because of Pridemage. :(
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

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Post #1444 by Khaospawn » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:21 am

magicdownunder » Tue Dec 15, 2015 3:30 am wrote:.......Sooooo Tunnel Ignus as a middle finger vs Bloom and Scapeshift? Yes? No? Too cute?

Too cute lol

Like pedrobear said, it's just not needed against Scapeshift.

Bloom is just a bad matchup anyway. If you deal with Titan, Hivemind gets you. If you deal with Hivemind, Titan gets you.

I fucking hate playing against Bloom. :gonk:
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Post #1445 by magicdownunder » Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:59 am

Pedrobear » Tue Dec 15, 2015 7:30 pm wrote:Burn is already a bad matchup for Scapeshift so I don't see why you want to put more cards against them.
And for Bloom that would just slow them a little bit to their plan B with Pact.


I only mention Scapeshift since its an extra target beside Bloom (I'm starting to think landing Mr Middle Finger on Bloom and slowing them down to force a Plan B tends to be enough to make the MU much more winnable).

@Khaos: Yeah I meant WU Allies or WB tokens, pridemage.dot deck isn't friendly for bridge - in regards with blaze vs aggro, I do believe it helps but I still think its slightly in aggro's favour.

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Post #1446 by Khaospawn » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:11 am

Ah, okay. I haven't played the Allies yet. WB Tokens can be tough if you don't draw a steady string of burn.

As for Facebook, I shot off a Friend Request to you. Accept it and I'll add you to the FoS Group. A lot of the DtR regulars are there, like James, Valdarith, Ham, Lazer, and Kait. I have no idea how you can link YouTube to Facebook (or even if that option exists) but I do know that you can easily share your stuff there. You may have to dig into YouTube to do it, if the link option exists.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

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Post #1447 by magicdownunder » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:40 am

I'm kinda tempted is trying out William Hawk's Sideboard except in Nacatl Burn soooo something like this (please note I would never recommend this SB in the non-nacatl list since you'll just gas out):

[deck=MDU's Nacatl Burn]Lands 20
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground

Creatures 18
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 22
4 Boros Charm
4 Atarka's Command
2 Searing Blaze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard 15
3 Path to Exile
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Searing Blaze
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rending Volley[/deck]

I like the idea of running answers to every match-up including the obscure one's like reanimate, storm or dredge even if it lowers your power slightly against some decks.

I kinda want the 4th Sacred Foundry so I can take slightly less damage when I naturally draw colours but running less then 10 fetches makes me uncomfortable.

P.S. The list I'm testing now has Palms and Skullcrack in the place of Rend and Progenitus, I do believe in larger events Twins and Rock has a larger showing which make rend and relic slightly more appealing.
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Post #1448 by Khaospawn » Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:12 pm

I'm playing 4 Foundries myself. But only 1 Mountain.

Also, I'm trying out Stony Silence because the Affinity matchup can be pretty rough. Bonus is that it's really good at shutting down Lantern Control (although I've yet to see it online, I have faced it several times locally).
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Post #1449 by magicdownunder » Thu Dec 17, 2015 3:58 am

Hmmmmm.... PtE.decks are not THAT common so I can see the appeal in going 4th Foundries over the 2nd Mountain.

Thoughts on 12 fetches without Copperline Gorge vs 10 fetches with Copperline Gorge? One gives you higher chance of gaining [mana]WRG[/mana] while the other secures your life-total slightly better.

I'm leaning towards Copperline mainly because the Nacatl burn since doesn't really run any form of lifegain while it hasn't costed me any events yets I've now experienced 4 games where my Nacatl are just fang-less 2/2.

P.S. I havn't faced them yet with the Nacatl list but doesn't Rock become a rather bad MU with this version of burn?
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Post #1450 by Khaospawn » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:51 pm

You are softer to Jund because they have Lightning Bolt, but I think you're about even with the other Rock decks. With that said, I've hardly experienced any G/B/x decks lately and have mostly faced Grixis (the new Jund), which I have found to be very beatable.

As for the Gorges Vs fetches, I like the Gorges right now because I've faced several Burn decks in the last couple days and the extra 1-3 life (and occasional tempo loss) did matter and cost me some games. I think that there are upsides to both manabases, but both meta dependent.

PtE decks are still there, but even with 2-3 Mountains in the deck, PtE is still be a "strictly better" Swords to Plowshares sometimes. I moved down to 1 copy of Mountain and have so far been okay.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Post #1451 by magicdownunder » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:59 am

I kinda wanna stay up and play during your meta....

Since I started playing Nacatl burn I've been playing against lord Aggro (Merfolk) at least once in every event I've been in so far (only four :P), lots of combo, some aggro and grixis only once.

So far I like Nacatl burn but I don't think I'll take it into a MOCS or anything since goyf, fink and co really dampens the creature side so I prefer the more burn focus approach.

- - - -

2 Grim Lavamancers vs 2 Lighting Helix in the Nacatl list vs a diverse metagame, what would you pick and why?
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Post #1452 by GoblinWarchief » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:27 pm

Someone can please add me to the FOS facebook group? this is my profile page https://www.facebook.com/pinco8

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Post #1453 by GoblinWarchief » Sun Dec 27, 2015 10:51 pm

I am not a fan of lists with the full set of guides, spears, nacatls, eidolons + some lavamancers for 2 reasons. The first and major one is that removal spells/big blockers become very good against you: as you said, rock/jund become even matchups and this is not a thing i am willing to accept. The second and minor one is that 18 creatures make swiftspear attack as a 1/2 too often for my taste

With that said, i am toying with nacatls too, but i just swapped eidolons for them. I like the idea of having all my creatures cost one, and eidolon is bad against all aggro decks when you are on the draw and affinity even on the play. This is just an experiment though, because i generally don't like playing 3 colors maindeck and nacatls force you to do so. i will see how it goes.

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Post #1454 by magicdownunder » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:13 am

GoblinWarchief » Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:51 am wrote:I am not a fan of lists with the full set of guides, spears, nacatls, eidolons + some lavamancers for 2 reasons. The first and major one is that removal spells/big blockers become very good against you: as you said, rock/jund become even matchups and this is not a thing i am willing to accept. The second and minor one is that 18 creatures make swiftspear attack as a 1/2 too often for my taste


Very good reasoning (both true) :smileup:

The heavy creature list also make UWR Control MU unwinnable (Walls, Fink, Snap, Helix and Angels mutes half the deck and with limited anti-life effects.... :gonk: ), Tron and Scapeshift also becomes MUCH harder since a well timed sweepers hurts allot more.

On the payoff it makes leylines, walkers and claws much weaker, drastically improves the Tempo MUs (Delver, Twins, Grixis Control) and Aggro MUs!!

I'll also argue that the Rock MU's arn't horrible mainly because burn is already strong against them (I just board out as many creatures as possible and fill my deck with spells post board, it seems to be working of far and this includes against top200 grinders).

- - - -

P.S. I highly recommend adding GoblinWarchief into the FOS facebook group, I would argue that GoblinWarchief most likely has the most local major paper results with Modern Burn on DtR (+ he is awesome).
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Post #1455 by GoblinWarchief » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:19 pm

You're too kind MDU... i think i am good with burn, but in the end my best result has been 7-2 at a regional ptq. someone here even top'8ed a gp if i recall correctly, you play much more than me and your videos are awesome, khaos is fantastic and so on....

but i just would like to be in the place where discussion has moved ; in the end i am a member of the clan (though not a historical one) and i don't want to lose all the people i met here !

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Post #1456 by Whole » Mon Dec 28, 2015 11:56 pm

I've been doing the same thing as you GoblinWarchief. I moved Eidolons to the board w/ maindeck Nacatl. It's been working out pretty well.

BTW, do yall mull all four landers now with the scry rule? I used to keep 4 landers w/ creature, but with the scry rule i think we can mulligan all of them. I also mulligan all 1 landers unless they're double 1 drop on the draw.
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Post #1457 by magicdownunder » Tue Dec 29, 2015 2:56 am

I'm still on the old rules for mulligan's I know GoblinWarchief just mulls all 4-landers, I just personally think early scry isn't that powerful for aggro or burn decks.

MDU's Mulligan Rules
0 land = Mull
5 lands or more = Mull
4 lands without a creature = Mull


BTW you were right Whole, the American metagame IS aggro heavy: Grand-Prix: Pittsburgh 12-2 with a RW(g) deck with 4x Helix and 4x Blaze MD - he played 10 aggro/rocks decks, 1 twin deck, 1 mirror (finals where he goes firewalker crazy and dominates), he loses to every pure combo deck he faces (only two).

Sadly my Asian Pacific MTGO meta is just filled with Combo and U fans so I don't get to experience that metagame T_T.

@GoblinWarchief: I recommend MTGS for Modern discussions, they cycle lots of arguments but cycle arguments do have merits when meta changes occurs (reddit is excellent as well).
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Post #1458 by Whole » Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:17 am

ok glad to know im not crazy
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Post #1459 by magicdownunder » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:41 am

Another day, another MOCS....well the MOCS was posted on Dec 20, 2015 so I'm slightly late but hey its something ;-)

Top8:
Amulet Bloom x1
Robots x1
GB Infect x1
Nacatl burn x2
Abzan x3

Here are the two burn list:

[deck=_alice1986_'s Nacatl Burn]Lands 20
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures 16
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells 24
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Searing Blaze

Sideboard 15
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Molten Rain
3 Path to Exile
3 Relic of Progenitus[/deck]

[deck=ArcaCrema's Nacatl Burn]Lands 20
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures 17
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl

Spells 23
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze

Sideboard 15
1 Searing Blaze
1 Deflecting Palm
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Molten Rain
2 Path to Exile
1 Rending Volley
2 Skullcrack[/deck]

I find Alice's devilmaycare attitude against the mirror awesome :D though his SB seem uninspired (though its very mtgo grinder'isk in scope), both players went for the 10 fetch, 3 copper 2 RG shock, 2 WG shock + 2 Mountain approach and had some Molten Rains in the 75.

I'm not really fond of the Molten Rain approach with Nacatl Burn and strongly vouch for 3-4x PtE as the answer for Bloom (hell I'll run some vs tron), but the lands are same which I use so I won't complain about that.
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Post #1460 by Whole » Tue Dec 29, 2015 9:57 pm

10 fetch isnt too low?
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Post #1461 by Khaospawn » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:34 pm

GoblinWarchief » Sun Dec 27, 2015 5:27 pm wrote:Someone can please add me to the FOS facebook group? this is my profile page https://www.facebook.com/pinco8

Accept my friend request and I'll add ya.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Post #1462 by Khaospawn » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:37 pm

magicdownunder » Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:56 pm wrote:
BTW you were right Whole, the American metagame IS aggro heavy


Man, I told ya, dude. Unless you forgot that I'm an American. In that case, I'll forgive ya.
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hamfactorial » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:41 pm wrote:In a pinch, Khaos' beard can help turn this around.

Col. Khaddafi » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:I rarely skip a Khaospawn wall of text because I know there is always piss at the end of the rainbow.

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Post #1463 by Whole » Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:46 pm

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Post #1464 by magicdownunder » Wed Dec 30, 2015 6:49 am

You guys both told me, though it should be noted that the online Meta doesn't (completely) reflect the American meta in major events and during other timezones

@Whole: Its either 10 fetches and 3 Copper or no Copper and 12+ fetches, with the American Meta as aggro as it is every life total counts (though I'll admit to casting 2/2 Nacatl more times then I would like.

- - - - - -

I'll be uploaded Nacatl Burn videos for the next two weeks with this list:

[deck=MDU's Nacatl Burn]Lands 20
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Copperline Gorge
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground

Creatures 18
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 22
4 Boros Charm
4 Atarka's Command
2 Searing Blaze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard 15
3 Path to Exile
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Searing Blaze
2 Rending Volley
2 Ancient Grudge [/deck]

Then I'll most likely be going back to Naya burn again (or I'll try a 12 fetch Wild Cat version with 19 lands + 1/2 Helix...) :p
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Post #1465 by Whole » Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:48 pm

Think Slagstorm is well positioned right now?

Edit: nvm forgot about ensnaring bridge
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Post #1466 by Whole » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:06 am

Do yall bring in Ensnaring Bridge vs Affinity?

edit: nvm i think u do Image
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Post #1467 by magicdownunder » Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:27 am

I wouldn't (cause plating + 0/x creature, burn and fast start = bridge tends to be to little to late) but wow that went well for ya :p
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Post #1468 by Whole » Mon Jan 04, 2016 4:46 am

what are some good sideboard cards for decks like Jund & Grixis (and grindy matchups in general)
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Post #1469 by magicdownunder » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:04 am

Molten Rain is good in both those MU.

Skullcrack + Atarka's Command is good vs Jund/Junk.

I guess you could also run Relic of Progenitus and/or that 3cc burn spell which can't be countered which is decent in both these MUs.

Naya Burn or Jund Burn would have a much easier time here with all the spells - with Nacatl Burn you have a higher chance of hitting clumps of poor draws (creatures/bad spells/lands) and just losing once your in top-deck mode.
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Post #1470 by Whole » Mon Jan 04, 2016 7:18 am

So I was thinking of having something like Lightning Helix sideboard (with only one or 2 Kor Firewalker) so I could side out Nacatl and just bring in straight burn while not sacrificing too much from other matchups....honestly I feel the gap between Firewalker and Helix is super small anyway considering everyone is playing Nacatl.

After GP Oakland I'll post a list and some different sideboards I was thinking with my plans for each matchup. After Oakland I really need to grind hard and get it all figured before the new set is out since I'm going to the PT.
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Post #1471 by magicdownunder » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:33 am

Not sure if this help but here is my SBP with that list I posted above:

1# Robots
In: (10)
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Pate to Exile
3x Destructive Revelry
2x Searing Blaze

Out:
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Lava Spike
2x Boros Charm


2# Burn
In: (8)
3x Pate to Exile
2x Searing Blaze
3x Kor Firewalker

Out:
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Atarka's Command


3# Rock
In: (5)
3x Pate to Exile
2x Searing Blaze

Out:
4x Wild Nacatl
1x Grim Lavamancer


5# Tempo
In: (5)
2x Rending Volley
3x Kor Firewalker

Out:
4x Atarka's Command
1x Searing Blaze


5# Bloom
In: (6)
3x Pate to Exile
3x Destructive Revelry

Out:
2x Rift Bolt
2x Searing Blaze
2x Grim Lavamancer


I'm still rather undecided on my SBP for infect (you can see them in my videos) since I can't decided if Rev is a good idea or not.

EDIT: My win streak :tears: I played the same Grixis Control guy twice running a list with 4x Dragon's Claw (which he draw postboard round) dispelled and xxSpellkite, it went horribly for me making me wish I had my Bumps back
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Post #1472 by Whole » Mon Jan 04, 2016 9:39 am

I like at least 3 Revelry vs Infect bc a lot of them play 3-4 Spellskite.
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Post #1473 by magicdownunder » Tue Jan 05, 2016 2:43 am

Whole » Mon Jan 04, 2016 5:18 pm wrote:honestly I feel the gap between Firewalker and Helix is super small


While I don't think Helix or any 2cc instant spell really is what you want against Grixis Control - I do see its appeal vs midrange and aggro, I'm gonna try 4x Helix in the Sideboard over all my Firewalkers and Grudges (also gonna run the 4th Path - if I'm gonna run 4 PtE to any burn deck it would have to be this one).
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Post #1474 by Whole » Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:53 am

Well it's not so much that Helix is super amazing against Grixis Control & Jund, but I just feel that any burn spell is better than Nacatl versus them (since Nacatl is often 0 damage). So I think it'd be really smart sideboarding to have a 4 of mirror & aggro hate card while also being able to do easy swaps against almost every matchup. Vs Merfolk and similar aggro decks, it's an easy 4 for 4 swap with Eidolon (I actually don't like Eidolon too much in the mirror either) and vs Jund and similar decks, it's an easy swap with Nacatl.

Next week I can help flesh out a list (or if I have extra time in my class this week). Depending on other tools we have for various matchups, it might be better to do something like 3 Helix, 1 Skullcrack or something. (I'd actually really want 5-6 Skullcrack effects in my 75 for the PT)

edit: I actually just read your reply to my comment on your video. So do you think Nacatl is actually just better than whatever burn spell versus Grixis Control postboard? I guess it really is kind of a tossup between hedging against removal or counterspells
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Post #1475 by magicdownunder » Thu Jan 07, 2016 9:52 am

Vs Tempo I would argue keeping the creatures in so that you can force removals and make Eidolon of the Great Revel that much more powerful against them. I think 1cc spells which can pressure them is more important then clunky 2cc lightning bolts.

- - - - -

Anyhow here is the list I will be running for next weeks videos:

[deck=MDU's Crouching Nacatl, Hidden Boros Burn]Lands 19
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground

Creatures 17
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Wild Nacatl
1 Grim Lavamancer

Spells 23
4 Boros Charm
4 Atarka's Command
2 Searing Blaze
2 Lighting Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Sideboard 15
3 Path to Exile
3 Destructive Revelry
3 Kor Firewalker
2 Searing Blaze
2 Rending Volley
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Ancient Grudge[/deck]
PROS:
12 Fetches and no Copperline Gorge which allows for easier switches into Boros for SBíng and helps with Nacatl 3/3íng
2 Lightning Helixes

CONS:
No Copperline Gorge and only 1 Grim lavamancer making the Robot and Infect MU much more difficult (mainly Robots though).

- - - - -

Current Constructed Rating: 1856
Limited Rating: 1693 (yes I know its horrible, and its most likely only going to get worse since I only play limited against MOCS level Opp. where my limited skills in most likely beneath FNM level)
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Post #1476 by Whole » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:50 am

anyone ever tried soulfire grandmaster in the sb? lol
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Post #1477 by magicdownunder » Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:59 am

It dies to everything though....

EDIT: Kinda wanna play UR Delver again once Oath comes out...
EDIT2: Is it viable to ALWAYS board out the 20th land on the draw?
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Post #1478 by Whole » Sun Jan 10, 2016 9:15 am

I feel it's always right vs Jund at least. Idk about other archetypes.
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Post #1479 by magicdownunder » Sun Jan 10, 2016 10:19 am

Yep, against MU where you want 4x Searing Blaze - I would keep all 20 lands its just those other MUs which usually go into topdeck (Rock, Most Tempo and Combo).
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Post #1480 by GoblinWarchief » Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:50 pm

i side out a land on the draw in many matchups, but as you said it depends on the number of blazes i have. Also i don't side out lands if i am bringing in spells like molten rain or volcanic fallout.


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