[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[hamfactorial]

The Izzet Staticaster deck just got a new best friend. I fear for all creatures with toughness <= 2.

[Kazekirimaru]

That's a pretty ignorant argument, but I think even you know that it's a pretty weak one. Straw man points don't last very long in FoS. After all, straw burns quickly.

I fail to see how I'm making such an argument. I'm not trying to say that we should love it because if we hated all new cards, we'd never use any. I'm merely pointing out the fact that people tend to dislike new planeswalkers at first.[
/quote]

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues.

By comparing it to how people felt about Domri Rade, you're inadvertently trying to lump everyone who dislikes this new planeswalker with "Well everyone hates new tech, look at this other card people hated!" It's a very weak stance.

Card evaluation is based on a lot of factors and is very subjective, but
if we're going to debate I'd rather do it properly.

I refuse to debate with a Disney prince.

How's that for a fallacy?

[rcwraspy]

I like that Ral Zarek allows you to attack into an opponent with a Boros Reckoner out and not get 2for1'ed.

[redthirst]

Yeah, it's got uses - I just don't think they're defensive uses.

The more I think about it, UWr Tempo will probably love this guy, though.

[rcwraspy]

What about this?

[deck]
Creatures (29)
4 Experiment One
4 Young Wolf
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Borderland Ranger
3 Pyreheart Wolf
3 Hound of Griselbrand
4 Deadbridge Goliath

Spells (7)
4 Searing Spear
3 Mizzium Mortars

Lands (24)
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Mountain
10 Forest
[/deck]

I like that. I hadn't thought of Deadbridge Goliath when I was thinking up the undying theme. I guess Scavenge is a form of it, but even without he's already a 5/5 for 4, similar to your other inclusion of Flinthoof Boar.

[Valdarith]

What about this?

[deck]
Creatures (29)
4 Experiment One
4 Young Wolf
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Flinthoof Boar
3 Borderland Ranger
3 Pyreheart Wolf
3 Hound of Griselbrand
4 Deadbridge Goliath

Spells (7)
4 Searing Spear
3 Mizzium Mortars

Lands (24)
3 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Stomping Ground
4 Rootbound Crag
3 Mountain
10 Forest
[/deck]

I like that. I hadn't thought of Deadbridge Goliath when I was thinking up the undying theme. I guess Scavenge is a form of it, but even without he's already a 5/5 for 4, similar to your other inclusion of Flinthoof Boar.[/
quote]

Yeah, I'm not super happy about Flinthoof Boar since we have only 7 Mountains, but Borderland Ranger makes that less egregious. I really want him to enter the battlefield as a 3/3 though to evolve Experiment One following a turn two creature. Granted, undying trigger from Geist will evolve him also, but that's clunky.

[Aesnath]

On the subject of Ral: Does anyone else think that he's just a less-good version of Ajani Vengeant?

I'm having a hard time evaluating him due to the potency of the lightning bolt effect and the "so what" of the tap/untap effect. Moreover, I'm not sure how I feel about the ultimate--super dicey effects aren't my favorite.

[Khaospawn]

On the subject of Ral: Does anyone else think that he's just a less-good version of Ajani Vengeant?

I'm having a hard time evaluating him due to the potency of the lightning bolt effect and the "so what" of the tap/untap effect. Moreover, I'm not sure how I feel about the ultimate--super dicey effects aren't my favorite.

That's actually the first thing I thought of when I saw him. But really, I just want him for casual play.

[redthirst]

On the subject of Ral: Does anyone else think that he's just a less-good version of Ajani Vengeant?

I'm having a hard time evaluating him due to the potency of the lightning bolt effect and the "so what" of the tap/untap effect. Moreover, I'm not sure how I feel about the ultimate--super dicey effects aren't my favorite.

That's actually the first thing I thought of when I saw him.

Ditto, but a "bad" Ajani Vengeant could still be a good card...

[Alex]

That's a pretty ignorant argument, but I think even you know that it's a pretty weak one. Straw man points don't last very long in FoS. After all, straw burns quickly.

I fail to see how I'm making such an argument. I'm not trying
to say that we should love it because if we hated all new cards, we'd never use any. I'm merely pointing out the fact that people tend to dislike new planeswalkers at first.

A straw man or straw person, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[3][4] This technique has been used throughout history in polemical debate, particularly in arguments about highly charged, emotional issues.

By comparing it to how people felt about Domri Rade, you're inadvertently trying to lump everyone who dislikes this new planeswalker with "
Well everyone hates new tech, look at this other card people hated!" It's a very weak stance.

Card evaluation is based on a lot of factors and is very subjective, but if we're going to debate I'd rather do it properly.

I refuse to debate with a Disney prince.

How's that for a fallacy?

At least people can pronounce my name.

Your move.

[redthirst]

Says the artist formerly known as Gweivyth...

[Alex]

Says the artist formerly known as Gweivyth...

Gway-veth.

Kah-zay-japan-anime-naruto.

Which is easier?

[Helios]

Kah-zeh-key-mah-ru.

"Ru" is really hard to describe, because it isn't "roo." It's like how people pronounce "poo." No one draws out the o's.

Kaze's, hands down. I couldn't pronounce yours until you made it phonetic

[redthirst]

We shorten his to "Kaze", we can't shorten yours to "Gway"...

No, actually that works out perfect.

Point: Gway

[Alex]

I keep forgetting I'm the only one here with an English degree. My name, at least to me, seems ridiculously easy after taking four years of Latin.

[Helios]

I still vote point: Kaze.

You can shorten it to Gway, but only after putting the work in to figuring out how to pronounce it. It's like the word Myrddin: easy to pronounce, but it looks gross.

@The Artist Now Known as Gway: That makes sense.

[Alex]

I still vote point: Kaze.

You can shorten it to Gway, but only after putting the work in to figuring out how to pronounce it. It's like the word Myrddin: easy to pronounce, but it looks gross.

@The Artist Now Known as Gway: That makes sense.

The amount of times I've been called Gwen has made shortening it frustrating. No thanks.

Besides my name is fucking Alex now.

[redthirst]

Settle down, Gway.

[windstrider]

I keep forgetting I'm the only one here with an English degree. My name, at least to me, seems ridiculously easy after taking four years of Latin.

Point of order: I have my Master's degree in English. I do not, however, have a background in Latin.

[Kazekirimaru]

I keep forgetting I'm the only one here with an English degree. My name, at least to me, seems ridiculously easy after taking four years of Latin.

Do two year degrees count? Then you're not the only one

Kah-zay-keh-ree-mar-oooooooooooooooo

It's from Soul Calibur III. It means Wind cut circle literally, or Cyclone blade, in Japanese.

It may be hard to pronounce, but when you google it, you get me, my account here, my account on MGTS, my League of Legends stuffs. Et cetera. I like having a name nobody else uses.

[LP, of the Fires]

Hello!

So after a pretty miserable couple of days where wasn't eating, coughing up my lungs, and expelling mucus from my face at an incredible rate, I'm finally feeling better. Thank you tea, cough drops, cough syrup, alka seltzer, and Kleenex. Then against my wishes, my lady friend came by and brought me some soup which I was grateful for. She definitely seems like a keeper.

Anywho, while I was home with the family, my sister somehow conned me into doing one of her online classes for her(I AM getting paid for it though), so I have some Econ discussion on supply and demand due today and 5 quizzes that need to be done by Wednesday.

Magic wise, Ral Zarek looks like wizards ran out of card concepts and decided that a shitty Ajani V is still a good magic card and I wouldn't necessarily disagree.

His plus 1 certainly seems good enough as it allows you to abuse any tap abilities of your own which is surely worth a
card. The tapping of other permanents is obviously useful for combat but also useful for tapping lands of control players trying to represent spells, forcing them to either pull the trigger early or let you know they don't have it.

-2, straight forward. Lightning bolt something. I'll take it.

Ultimate: Someone's going to ragequit magic when they lose all the flips.

Edit:
Point Kaze. I had zero Idea how to prounounce alex's name and just abbreviated it Gwei or I guess now Gway.

[Dodger]

Actually busy at work on a Monday, this is some bs

[redthirst]

Glad you're feeling better LP, sounds like you've got a pretty good girl, there.

[Helios]

And now I feel like an idiot for writing out an incorrect pronunciation of Kaze's name, because I apparently have never actually read it.



Glad you're feeling better LP!

[Dane]

There's more PMs where he pretends like he knew "because of my IP," but as stated previous, I connected via proxy, so he's full of it. I don't have the heart to tell him, though, so I'm just letting him think he's got me.

I'm sure he'll read about it here.

Regarding Ral Zarek, if his +1 kept whatever tapped for a turn I think I'd love him, as is - I'm not really sure.

But then he'd just be another Tamiyo with a different ultimate (
Honestly...I may be doing it wrong, but I almost NEVER use her middle ability...)

There's no realistic way they could do +1: Tap target permanent, and it stays tapped AND untap target permanent.

That'd just be ridiculously OP.

[Kazekirimaru]

Actually busy at work on a Monday, this is some bs

Can I work there? I get no business on Monday. Except mall walkers. I shouldn't be able to browse the site from my phone at work, but I am. Slow...

[TubeHunter]

Sorry guys I havent been posting for the past few days, I've been super fucking busy with our schools prom. Now that its over, I can finally relax! As for how the prom went? Well it was going fine, until my date ditched me halfway though to go fuck her ex..... yeah.

I'm not super upset though, and didn't let it ruin my night!

LK: Sounds like you have a fine girl!

[Alex]

It may be hard to pronounce, but when you google it, you get me, my account here, my account on MGTS, my League of Legends stuffs. Et cetera. I like having a name nobody else uses.

Same for me. I'm the only Gweivyth.

[Kazekirimaru]

And now I feel like an idiot for writing out an incorrect pronunciation of Kaze's name, because I apparently have never actually read it.

Welcome to the internet. I hear you mispronounce sixty words a minute in your head per hour on average whilest reading things on the internet.

That statistic was bullshit.

Luckily, it's internet factual.


Sorry about the prom stuff, hunter. Drop that dime facedown.

[windstrider]

Glad to hear you're feeling better, LP.

[Dane]

Meh. To each, their own, I suppose. It seems like any time a new walker is spoiled the general consensus is "Trash mythic, no play." Then someone cracks in at a pre-release and steamrolls everyone else with it. All of a sudden it's 20 dollars.

That was the prediction at my LGS about Gideon when I was mourning him after being spoiled...I so BADLY want(ed) to break him. Everyone else was going on about how awesome he was. One father/son combo that I know pretty well (actually, it's a dad, and his two sons, and one daughter that all play there) both cracked one, and then proceeded to get facerolled, because they were too focused on making him their wincon.

Now there's a guy who's building an entire deck around him, and
again...he just gets facerolled. He's a good player too, but he just can't see that the meta is wrong for him right now. And people are astounded that he's plummeting in price...

I think what it is is that walkers are cool...people like them and want to play them. I can feel that. I LOVE playing walkers. But now I've been back for nearly a full block, and gotten the hang of them. When I came back, they were a new card type, and it was neat and exciting, and I wanted to make them work in EVERY deck. Doesn't work that way.

My walker evaluation focuses mostly on the first two abilities...as has been drilled into me, and I've really liked the test of "First turn, does it protect itself, or draw you cards/provide virtual card advantage?" If it passes that test...then I look at it's ultimate. Ral KINDA passes the first test. His abilities aren't stellar, if you ask me...but they aren't bad either. His ultimate is goofy as hell though. I'm the kind of player that wants to MINIMIZE
variance. I think the coin flip = extra turns thing is fun...but not something I'd ever want to rely on.

I'm thinking he'll be a casual play walker for me, unless I find a deck that he's absolutely brilliant in.

[Link]

Ral Zarek+Mercurial Chemister.

Enough said?

[TubeHunter]

I'm more of an anonymous forum goer myself. this is my 5th forum name in 5 forums!

Dane: I feel that Ral looks too powerful to not find a home. As said before, a Staggershock-ish Bolt effect plus that tap effect looks too good to not be playable. I just want to hit the jackpot on the ultimate though!!! 5 turns? Yes please!

But, the same thing was said about [card]Aurelia's Fury[/card], and that never found a home.

[Kazekirimaru]

Meh. To each, their own, I suppose. It seems like any time a new walker is spoiled the general consensus is "Trash mythic, no play." Then someone cracks in at a pre-release and steamrolls everyone else with it. All of a sudden it's 20 dollars.

That was the prediction at my LGS about Gideon when I was mourning him after being spoiled...I so BADLY want(ed) to break him. Everyone else was going on about how awesome he was. One father/son combo that I know pretty well (actually, it's a dad, and his two sons, and one daughter that all play there) both cracked one, and
then proceeded to get facerolled, because they were too focused on making him their wincon.

Now there's a guy who's building an entire deck around him, and again...he just gets facerolled. He's a good player too, but he just can't see that the meta is wrong for him right now. And people are astounded that he's plummeting in price...

I think what it is is that walkers are cool...people like them and want to play them. I can feel that. I LOVE playing walkers. But now I've been back for nearly a full block, and gotten the hang of them. When I came back, they were a new card type, and it was neat and exciting, and I wanted to make them work in EVERY deck. Doesn't work that way.

My walker evaluation focuses mostly on the first two abilities...as has been drilled into me, and I've really liked the test of "First turn, does it protect itself, or draw you cards/provide virtual card advantage?" If it passes that test...then I look at it's ultimate. Ral KINDA passes the first test. His
abilities aren't stellar, if you ask me...but they aren't bad either. His ultimate is goofy as hell though. I'm the kind of player that wants to MINIMIZE variance. I think the coin flip = extra turns thing is fun...but not something I'd ever want to rely on.

I'm thinking he'll be a casual play walker for me, unless I find a deck that he's absolutely brilliant in.

Agreed on all points. I suppose his ultimate is a matter of taste. To me, variance adds color and flavor to a game. I don't like being bored. Strange things excite me. Chances are, you'll get at least one free extra turn, which is good by me. But possibly more? I'm all over that.

[Kazekirimaru]

I'm more of an anonymous forum goer myself. this is my 5th forum name in 5 forums!

Dane: I feel that Ral looks too powerful to not find a home. As said before, a Staggershock-ish Bolt effect plus that tap effect looks too good to not be playable. I just want to hit the jackpot on the ultimate though!!! 5 turns? Yes please!

But, the same thing was said about [card]Aurelia's Fury[/card], and that never found a home.

Aurelia's Fury was a trap card from the start. Aggro can't hold back mana to cast a spell, and aggro is where that card wants to be.

Always hated it.

[redthirst]

The Ultimate isn't unplayable or anything - a good Ultimate just about wins the game and any deck aggressive enough to make use of Ral's abilities should be able to close out a game given 2-3 (average) extra turns.

[Alex]

I'm more of an anonymous forum goer myself. this is my 5th forum name in 5 forums!

Dane: I feel that Ral looks too powerful to not find a home. As said before, a Staggershock-ish Bolt effect plus that tap effect looks too good to not be playable. I just want to hit the jackpot on the ultimate though!!! 5 turns? Yes please!

But, the same thing was said about [card]Aurelia's Fury[/card], and that never found a home.

Aurelia's Fury was a trap card from the start. Aggro can't hold back mana to cast a spell, and aggro is where that card wants to be.

Always hated it.

It's a win condition in midrange. I played it in Modern flash and it was about as good as you expect it to be when you're playing cards like Vendillion Clique, Restoration Angel, and Snapcaster Mage. Which is to say it just killed my opponent out of nowhere when they thought they had the board pretty stable.

[LP, of the Fires]

Since I suppose I was being ambiguous in my assessment, I think Ral's playable. Maybe in a UWR midrange deck with GoST. First thing that pops into my head. Drop geist, untap, play Ral, tap there guy, untap your land, Pillar/unsummon there other guy and watch Geist kill them as an example.

The limiting factors of course would be the metagame. Would this(or other) potential deck(s) be to fast/slow.

[Kazekirimaru]

I'm more of an anonymous forum goer myself. this is my 5th forum name in 5 forums!

Dane: I feel that Ral looks too powerful to not find a home. As said before, a Staggershock-ish Bolt effect plus that tap effect looks too good to not be playable. I just want to hit the jackpot on the ultimate though!!! 5 turns?
Yes please!

But, the same thing was said about [card]Aurelia's Fury[/card], and that never found a home.

Aurelia's Fury was a trap card from the start. Aggro can't hold back mana to cast a spell, and aggro is where that card wants to be.

Always hated it.

It's a win condition in midrange. I played it in Modern flash and it was about as good as you expect it to be when you're playing cards like Vendillion Clique, Restoration Angel, and Snapcaster Mage. Which is to say it just killed my opponent out of nowhere when they thought they had the board pretty stable.

There are better options, though. Especially in Modern. Yes, the free-splitting Fireball is nice, but as far as damage to the dome goes, it's subpar.

EDIT: Failed to realize it's damn near the only instant-speed X damage spell in existence. But my points are still there. Ish.

[Link]

what I'm curious is why no one's talking about the new 2/2 Flash bounce creature that's a COMMON and UW.

As if they didn't have enough bs. Save Augur from Spear and get more spears? Get snapcaster back in my hand for more azo charms?


This makes me somewhat excited about the tools they are goin to give aggro decks... but in the article Rosewater also said DGM had to be a "slow" draft out of the all the blocks so there probably won't be any fast awesome cards for us...