New Card Talk & Future Brews[Post-JOU] Boros Burn

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Post #41 by zemanjaski » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:13 am

Everflame has been a little too slow in testing for that version but in a higher curve version id main a few.
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Post #42 by Elricity » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:17 am

I would have liked playing the old pyro red. Well, some, I would have hated the blue devotion match.

Some of my casual decks are that.

Z, fair enough.

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Post #43 by Elricity » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:32 am

6 cards vs GW aggro.

2 lands, phoenix, helix, a chain, and something else. Did lose a land and chain like I cared.

Make that 8. Another land and another helix. Never has having 8 lands in play felt so good. Ended with a full hand.

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Post #44 by magicdownunder » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:43 am

I can see Prophetic Flamespeaker in RDW, but doesn't he seem like win-more in burn?

Its quite horrible when your behind, though I'll admit he'll help in closing down a game faster....
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Post #45 by Elricity » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:46 am

In which matchups? He walls blue, red, and a fair bit of green and white weenies. Coupled with burn, he walls anything that doesn't fly and punches through for free card draw. No, he can't miracle you out like mortars but that's literally the only thing it can't do. Also, if both people are gassed out, the card draw is vital.

Don't play it vs control. It's awful there without pumps. I haven't tested it vs burn but I suspect it's weak there as well with all the removal they'd have for it. I would say it's weak vs monsters but I just wrecked all over that.

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Post #46 by magicdownunder » Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:56 am

I didn't think about the walling side, since I usually think about Boros Reckoner as that ideal defensive/offensive card at 3cc.

That said he does sound slightly better now in burn....
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Post #47 by Elricity » Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:16 am

That's why I like the little guy. He's kinda YP style in that he can shift from defense to offense quite quickly. He'd be really bad for burn if he was a 1/2.

Also, he's not punisher like reckoner where your opponent can choose not to interact with him. That was always the biggest downside of him. If you ignore this guy, he explodes.

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Post #48 by Elricity » Sun Apr 27, 2014 9:04 am

Ok, I finally got enough chance to grind on cockatrice and I'm certain this thing has a place in burn unless all the aggro gets hated out. You do lose the occassional terror to him but...you know, drawing 3 cards a turn makes up for that. Two feels about right because he really does need a little support at the start.

Z, how does he play against control in your deck? My concern is that he can be slow and Jace can taunt you into pumping and getting blown out. Or maybe the game just never reaches that stage in your version.

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Post #49 by Toddington » Sun Apr 27, 2014 12:03 pm

Elricity » Sat Apr 26, 2014 7:11 am wrote:The biggest danger with Flamespeaker is if your opponent is smart and/or lucky, he can hold off until after you reveal the first card or two and use his removal before the damage step ends and keep you from casting any sorcery speed effects that it revealed.

Can someone (a judge) clarify this? Are you saying that Flamespeaker has to still be on the battlefield for you to play the exiled cards?

The way I read it you can play the cards until end of turn, regardless of whether he survives combat.

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Post #50 by Elricity » Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:42 pm

You're right, I was thinking Nightveil Specter's reading. Flamespeaker doesn't reference cards exiled with him so he doesn't need to be around. That's comforting.

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Post #51 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:13 pm

How can we prepare this deck for the guaranteed influx and success of hexproof?
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Post #52 by magicdownunder » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:42 pm

Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:13 am wrote:How can we prepare this deck for the guaranteed influx and success of hexproof?


I'm also really concerned about this MU, I figured we could answer them with Banishing Light except they'll just answer our Banishing Light with Banishing Light......

Maybe Mana Confluence or Blood Crypt splash for devour flesh :P - that said Hexproof is rather weak against Bx Devotion and Control as long as those two decks stay on top Hexproof numbers shouldn't be overwhelming.
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Post #53 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:51 pm

Safe to say Hexproof will easily jump to a t1 strategy, has me nervous about taking it to an open in week 2 of new meta. 4 Spark Troopers!
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Post #54 by BrainsickHater » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:54 pm

Is the matchup against hexproof a time when Eidolon of the Great Revel might be good? Early Eidolon plus some instant-speed enchantment removal seems not bad.

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Post #55 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:03 pm

BrainsickHater » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:54 am wrote:Is the matchup against hexproof a time when Eidolon of the Great Revel might be good? Early Eidolon plus some instant-speed enchantment removal seems not bad.


t1 or t2 creature into t3 courage looks pretty bad for us if we drop a revel on t2, taking 2 damage for every spell we cast after.
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Post #56 by hoeiberg » Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:33 pm

Don't kill me for suggesting this (I'm just brainstorming), but how about changing the black splash for blue. It gives us turn/burn to handle Ghostdad,BBoV, SBD and active gods (though chained and Banishing light handles the last one as well). Further it would give us various options vs Hexproof. Ætherize, or maybe even Supreme verdict, comes to mind.

As I'm writing this I'm thinking that it will probably hurt the deck more than improve it, but worth thinking about.

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Post #57 by Tyrael » Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:13 pm

What about Anger of the Gods?
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Post #58 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:00 pm

Seems good on the play and you land it on t3. Otherwise once two enchantments get on there its pretty bad.
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Post #59 by Elricity » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:00 pm

Rather than upping your black sources for devour flesh, you also have the option of rising your white sources and playing celestial flare. Turn 3, it's 32% miss rate on 14 white or it's 25% miss with 8 black. Turn 4 it's 26% vs 21%

Flare is the more targetable spell which is relevant if they play a second hexproof creature before you get your sac spell but I'm not sure if 4 mountain --> blood crypt is a stronger mana base than something like 2 temple of malice, 1 mountain -> to 2 guildgates/1 confluence or 3 gates though.

Flare also doesn't gain them a ton of life which is hugely important other places, if not here.

If they attack with multiple creatures and you can kill the unsuited ones during the combat damage step and set up the stop there, you do get priority to cast flare before the end of combat step causing the creature to no longer be attacking or blocking.

I'm still hoping they stay hated out
and push the other decks to run more sac effects at the same time because I don't want to be forced going in this direction.

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Post #60 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:32 pm

More spark troopers
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Post #61 by LP, of the Fires » Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:51 pm

zemanjaski » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:51 pm wrote:[deck=Red Aggro]
Creatures
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Firefist Striker
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Mogis's Warhound
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Instants
4 Titan's Strength

Lands
18 Mountain
2 Mutavault
[/deck]


I have like, 2 problems with this and one's not really a problem. Is this good enough with zero reach and as good as prophetic flamespeaker is, is it good enough to not run Chandra's phoenix?
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Post #62 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:08 pm

LP, of the Fires » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:51 pm wrote:
zemanjaski » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:51 pm wrote:[deck=Red Aggro]
Creatures
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Firefist Striker
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Mogis's Warhound
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Instants
4 Titan's Strength

Lands
18 Mountain
2 Mutavault
[/deck]


I have like, 2 problems with this and one's not really a problem. Is this good enough with zero reach and as good as prophetic flamespeaker is, is it good enough to not run Chandra's phoenix?[/quote:
x1bh4y2j]

I ran through a gaunlet with this the other night, and man I wish I had shocks at least. Flamespeaker was good but more often than he is easily walled. Without the removals, the white weenie matchup was tough.
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Post #63 by LP, of the Fires » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:14 pm

Play hall of triumph. Card's OP.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Post #64 by Elricity » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:36 pm

Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:08 pm wrote:
LP, of the Fires » Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:51 pm wrote:
zemanjaski » Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:51 pm wrote:[deck=Red Aggro]
Creatures
4 Burning Tree Emissary
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Firefist Striker
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Gore-House Chainwalker
4 Mogis's Warhound
4 Prophetic Flamespeaker
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Rubblebelt Maaka

Instants
4 Titan's Strength

Lands
18 Mountain
2 Mutavault
[/deck]


I have like, 2 problems with this and one's not
really a problem. Is this good enough with zero reach and as good as prophetic flamespeaker is, is it good enough to not run Chandra's phoenix?


I ran through a gaunlet with this the other night, and man I wish I had shocks at least. Flamespeaker was good but more often than he is easily walled. Without the removals, the white weenie matchup was tough.


12 pump effects wasn't enough for him?

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Post #65 by Purp » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:40 pm

BG def has me worried as well... Abrupt Decay deals with both chain and banishing light quite easily, not to mention golgari charm.
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Post #66 by Crims0n » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:56 am

I'm thinking of putting firedancer back in the main now for the time being. Theres gonna be so much aggro at first.

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Post #67 by Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:24 am

That's not a bad idea. I did testing tonight of a Burn List vs BR aggro, and let me tell you that BR aggro is NO joke. 8 scrylands does not seem like the way to go early. My removal suite was 3 shock ,2 searing blood ,1 fotf ,2 chain, 1 banishing light.
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Post #68 by magicdownunder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:32 am

Purp can you share your sideboard plans against BG and Aggro decks? I never really had problems against these brews even during mocs level events (in the mocs all my losses were against Ux devotion (two of them....)) granted I was playing Pyrowhite for mocs :rofl: .

I also highly recommend running 4x Shock :smileup:
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Post #69 by Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:44 am

[deck]
4 YP$
4 Chandra's Phoenix

3 Shock
2 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 FotF
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 WLH

23 land base wiht 8 scry

sb
1 wear tear
3 Mortars
1 Assemble
1 Chandra
1 Banishing Light
4 Toil
2 Spark Trooper
2 Chains[/deck]

We didn't play many SB games, G1s were fine vs BG. Scooze, Golgari Charm and Pharikas Cure were tough out of the sb though.

BR aggro does deal itself a lot of damage. I wonder if it smart to cut down on skullcracks main in favor of shock or SFD. I got an IQ Saturday, possible Super IQ on Sunday I will play in in preparation of SCG Knox on the 10th. Has anyone been testing a lot?
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Post #70 by LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:21 am

Stuff I've tested:

BG devotion probably replaces mono-black as the best deck

U devotion loses a lot with deicide being a card but at least gets mana confluence to make UW devotion much better

esper didn't really gain anything but it didn't need to

RDW got a lot better with mogis warhound and prophetic flamespear. Warhound makes the control matchup a million times better and flamespeaker makes the blue matchup better since you don't just scoop to master of waves anymore if you have a pump spell

Gruul agro and Wb humans are players now

Stuff I haven't really tested:

BR agro doesn't seem good at all but mono-black is probably a contender

Junk and GW agro probably get a lot better do to the new lands being printed and American control is probably deck now.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Post #71 by magicdownunder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 7:27 am

LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:21 pm wrote:BG devotion probably replaces mono-black as the best deck


BG was rather big a few weeks before BNG was released, but MonoB Devotion ended up performing better overall so people gave up on it.

What changed? I don't think O-Rings will be ran enough to make Decay THAT big of a spell.
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Post #72 by LP, of the Fires » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:00 am

temple of malady.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Post #73 by magicdownunder » Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:45 am

good answer :p **** I hated the Bg Devotion MU so I was really happy when they fazed out.

Hmmmm.... I might need too reassess Ash Zealot + Searing Blood approach so I can and go for the aggressive angle.
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Post #74 by Pedros » Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:19 pm

Yup BG was my nightmare, thats why I didnt like RW YP deck that much, as everyone and their mothers in europe was running BG. My Chains got decayed and charmed unlimited times.

Dont know why but meta seems to react to burn too much.
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Post #75 by LaZerBurn » Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:48 pm

If my memory serves BG - Decay and Charm - was a large part of the reason we stopped running Pyro - along with Profit///Loss and other -1 -1 nastyness - and went over to the Big Boros Burn / Almost Boros Burn lists in which case Ash seems like a plan MDU :)
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Post #76 by Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:35 pm

I think is Ash is potentially much worse in creature matches when compared to Yp$/SFD though. I'm wondering if skullcrack is better MD than more creatures.
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Post #77 by Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 3:47 pm

[deck]
4 YP$
4 Phoenix

4 Shock
2 Searing Blood
1 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
3 Skullcrack
4 WLH

2 Chains
1 Banishing Light

3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice
1 Boros Guilgate / Mana Confluence (thoughts?)
7 Mountain

SB
1 Skullcrack
2 Chains
1 Banishing Light
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Mutavault
1 Chandra, Pyroblaster
2 Hold at Bay (this is possibly an answer to hexproof and other aggro decks)
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 T/T
1 Font of Ire
[/deck]

Brainstorming ideas for IQ this saturday. I'm really at a loss, I feel like I can't improve both the hexproof and control matchup at the same time. I also expect to see more archangel getting played. Im also worried about control players being able to pack up to 8 o rings... is there anything we can do about this?
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Post #78 by Crims0n » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:09 pm

[deck]

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Satyr Firedancer

2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Boros Charm
4 Shock
3 Searing Blood

8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence
[/deck]

What I have right now. Gonna give the SFD a try, I like it a lot right now. It should run over creature decks, but is softer against control. Can searing blood be cut if SFD is in main? Cut them for cracks?

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Post #79 by Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:28 pm

This deck has done well in 3 online JOU tourneys

[deck]
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
16 Mountain
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Ash Zealot
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Stormbreath Dragon
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Skullcrack
2 Aurelia's Fury


4 Burning Earth
4 Anger of the Gods
3 Firedrinker Satyr
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Boros Reckoner
[/deck]
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Post #80 by Rhyno » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:44 pm

Purp » Tue Apr 29, 2014 2:47 pm wrote:Brainstorming ideas for IQ this saturday. I'm really at a loss, I feel like I can't improve both the hexproof and control matchup at the same time. I also expect to see more archangel getting played. Im also worried about control players being able to pack up to 8 o rings... is there anything we can do about this?


What are your board plans?
Wear//Tear helps against the 8 O-rings as well as Hexproof's lifelink Auras. I prefer Tear, but Deicide isn't awful either.
I think we really need instant speed enchantment removal. It deals with Courser, Whip, Bow, Courage, Gift of Orzhova, Nyx-Fleece Ram, etc. All very worth dealing with at instant speed.
Beyond that, grabbing a Phoenix back from under a D-Sphere is fine.


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