Strategy and Theoryplaying red white burn

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playing red white burn

Post #1 by BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 6:19 am

question number 1. do we jam young pyro on turn two every time or are there situations to where we have it in our opener and do not play it until later?

question number 2. do we wait until our mirror match plays chained to the rocks for us to play peak eruption or do we just play it for the greatest tempo advantage?

question number 3. are there any other decks that we want to board in assemble against? like green white, mono green, or mono red with fanatics?

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Post #2 by LaZerBurn » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:52 am

General DTR etiquette is to provide your current thoughts and understanding on the questions you've asked as this shows you're striving to think for yourself. You'll generally find everyone is then more than willing to jump in and enter into a productive dialogue with you :) This is especially true when the question has been asked before, often on multiple occassions; question 1 for example has been discussed to death on the Pyro thread :) I realise that not everyone can be bothered to read 95 pages and watch videos of the deck in action (though it's WELL worth the time invested) but an indication that you've at least read the primer is much more likely to garner the response you're after :)

Taking that approach: how would you answer these questions if they were asked of you? What do you think the advantages are of jamming YP T2 as opposed to not doing so? Does this change based on what your opponent is playing or whether you're on the play or draw?
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Post #3 by BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:31 pm

ok. im conused. Is the pyro thread the r/w burn primer thread or is it a separate thread.

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Post #4 by BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:51 pm

nvm i found it.

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Post #5 by BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:02 pm

I have spent the last 2 daily events that i have played where i always tried to get as much value out of yp as possible. It seems really miserable to play it just to die so i wasnt playing it until turn 4 with charm,strike and preferebly jets. Also we are running 4 of them so its not unlikely to play it on 4 then jet to find another one. So as far as i have read on the pyro red primer i was playing mine correctly unless the strategy changed halfway through 95 pages.

about pe. The way i feel we get the best value out of it on the play is to just eat their land they hit us with a spell. they might not have a second mountain in hand so they will have to play a tapped land. then we untap play yp and leave open mana.thee next turn they kill it we pump out damage and a token. next turn phoenix attack for 4. assuming they have used a spell on our face we are at 16-18 and they are at 9. Seems like we just win here and if they
play a foundry they are at 7. On the draw if they lead with t2 spell then t3 phoenix we can shock or jet it. We play pe just to eat a land and for the same reason. they are probably not going to have a second untapped source so they are on the plan on buying pack phoenix on our eot. which leaves us the ability to play yp and have mana open. I feel that the mirror is so tempo heavy that you cant afford not to use it if you have it.

on the the third point. can gw aggro beat assemble plus yp tokens and blocking with phoenix? It seems like we can just value town them out of a game sine alot of our removal kills 4/4s and the late game slam assemble and they concede. I had games come down to top deck mode where if i had aseemble i just win. im pretty sure mono green cannot beat it unless they get such an aggressive draw but you have to accept a certain amount of variance as a reality. You cant win 100% of the time. as far as the strait mono red deck with fanatics, we can grind them out of the game the same way
with gw aggro just blocking with phoenixes and elemental tokens and then slamming some helixes into assemble. seems like they cannot win. I had a friend who played uwr control and he said that aggro couldnt beat verdict into assemble at his fnm. Any way those are the plans im going to be on for my next dailies to see how in reality they work instead of theory.

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Post #6 by LaZerBurn » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:38 pm

Seems to me like you're doing just fine Sir :)

BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:02 pm wrote: i always tried to get as much value out of yp as possible.

Spot on :)

BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:02 pm wrote:I feel that the mirror is so tempo heavy that you cant afford not to use it if you have it.

And again :)


BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 8:02 pm
wrote:
on the the third point. can gw aggro beat assemble plus yp tokens and blocking with phoenix? It seems like we can just value town them out of a game sine alot of our removal kills 4/4s and the late game slam assemble and they concede. I had games come down to top deck mode where if i had aseemble i just win. im pretty sure mono green cannot beat it unless they get such an aggressive draw but you have to accept a certain amount of variance as a reality. You cant win 100% of the time. as far as the strait mono red deck with fanatics, we can grind them out of the game the same way with gw aggro just blocking with phoenixes and elemental tokens and then slamming some helixes into assemble. seems like they cannot win. I had a friend who played uwr control and he said that aggro couldnt beat verdict into assemble at his fnm. Any way those are the plans im going to be on for my next dailies to see how in reality they work instead of theory.[/
quote]
Another accurate assessment. Not everyone brings in Assemble in these matches but you're correct that if you can 1 for 1 them and drop an Assemble you'll likely win the game :)
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Post #7 by zemanjaski » Tue Apr 01, 2014 1:28 am

BiddingMaster » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:19 pm wrote:question number 1. do we jam young pyro on turn two every time or are there situations to where we have it in our opener and do not play it until later?


It varies by matchup, but also by necessity. There are matches where you can just run it out because your opponent doesn't have removal; there are matchups where you need to exhuast their removal first because sticking a YP$ = win. There are times when you just need a 2/1 on turn 2 to apply pressure and there are times when you just have to play the card and hope they don't have anything because you're behind. The card is very skill demanding, but with experience you'll get more from it.

question number 2. do we wait until our mirror match plays
chained to the rocks for us to play peak eruption or do we just play it for the greatest tempo advantage?


IMO just slam it asap; especially on the plan ~ it disrupts their sequencing substantially and keeping them off four mana is huge; this can directly allow you to safely resolve a Warleader's Helix because they can't both advance their game plan AND keep up Skullcrack.

question number 3. are there any other decks that we want to board in assemble against? like green white, mono green, or mono red with fanatics?


Not red decks, but I do bring them in against the weenie aggro decks; you turn your entire deck into a 1-for-1 or better trading deck then slam an Assemble at 10+ life and the game is over.
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Post #8 by BiddingMaster » Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:40 pm

Id like some imput into this game state at a de I was in. In game three of round 4 im playing against frank karsten. He is piloting blue black heroic. He has two cards maybe three in hand and desecration demon, agent of fates and a mutavault. Its my turn and i draw warleaders helix for the turn and on the board i have like 7 lands one of which is a muta yp and chandra's phoenix. im at 18 and he is at 8. He has like 50 seconds on his time clock to my 2:23. I could try and grind him out of the game but i decided to go for the kill and force him to "have it." I sacrificed muta to demon slammed my yp and phoenix sideways to bait a card then i helixed him down to 2 after he tried to make me sacrifice my yp or phoenix after blockers with agent trigger and mizzium skin so i sacrifice my token off helix and letting my yp die. Next turn he plays agent of forms attacks and passes. I draw jet and play it and he has dispel,
so on his turn i leave up phoenix to block take some damage hoping to top deck burn for the game but i drew land. he said he had another dispel. Was it wrong to do this or should i have timed him out of the game? If i had done nothing on my turn i would have sacrificed phoenix to demon and taken 3 and he plays agent of forms. passes. with 2-3 cards in hand. I have helix and jet on my turn so I try and helix him and he makes me sacrifice a creature which would be a token from magma jet. He plays dispel on jet or helix, not sure which he would choose though. and if he had the second dispel then both of my spells are countered but his clock is slowly ticking down. this leaves me with 1 token yp and muta. sac muta to demon. next turn draw land. if he draws triton tactics or puppet strings he wins the game but if he doesnt he possibly runs out of time. Either way he just has to have it so both plays are risky. Im torn between the two lines myself. what you guys think and what you would have done. Can i count
myself as a good player for almost beating a hall of famer or am I looking into this too much? Just curious. I just wished I had more testing against the deck to smooth out my plays.

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Post #9 by zemanjaski » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:45 pm

If you format that as actual paragraphs, I will respond. I can't read it when it looks like that.
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Post #10 by BiddingMaster » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:22 pm

Im at 18 life. I have Phoenix, young pyromancer, mutavault and 6 other lands and im empty handed. Karten is at 8 life with a demon, mutavault, agent of fates and about 4 other lands and 3-4 cards in hand. I forgot the exact number. he has one blue mana untapped with mutavault.

Turn passes to me

i draw warleaders helix. i decide to animate muta sac to demon and attack with young pyro and phoenix. He blocks with agent playing mizzium skin on agent so I point helix at him dropping him to 4 and sacrifice the token to agent of fates trigger. He goes to 2 with phoenix damage.

Pass

He draws and plays artisan of forms and goes to combat. i sac phoenix to tap demon. attacks for 3.

pass

I draw magma jet which he counters at my mainphase.

pass

he attacks for 12

pass

I draw land so im dead but if i had a burnspell or pheonix he would have died. He said he had the second dispel.
alternatively i could have
tried to whittle down his clock which was at 39 seconds when i drew my land and died. He would have just played faster and probably just killed me anyway. the only detail im fuzzy about is his exact number of cards in hand but it was no more than 4.

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Post #11 by zemanjaski » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:55 am

I don't understand sacrificing the Phoenix so early ~ why? You can take 9 because you're representing lethal and he MUST answer the Phoenix; the way you played it you basically let go of all tension in the position; once you simplify the position of material threats he is able to make much more informed decisions.

So I think that sounds like a substantial misplay to me, albeit you were under time pressure.

Turning to you two questions:
- I would have played to time him out, but I am a WAAC player
- Almost beating a Hall of Famer has no implication on your own abilities. I have beaten MANY hall of famers and I would not consider myself a great player; that's not how it is measured.
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Post #12 by BiddingMaster » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:57 pm

makes sense

what is a waac player?

The reason I sacrificed the phoenix was to buy myself time to draw assemble or chandra. So looking back those cards would not have helped me anyway and I didnt see that. The fear of all of those in his hand got to me.
I read in an article somewhere about putting yourself in positions to get lucky more often than not because if you dont create situation to get lucky you never will. Ive been testing out the theory but I should have realized that I was already in a position of getting lucky with the cards I had on board. Drawing a burn spell every turn would have been lucky enough.

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Post #13 by BiddingMaster » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:35 pm

I do still hold on the idea that results determine a player on some level though im trying to change that mentality. A long time ago I considered my results to be the only determining factor of a good player. Thats is not how I judged others but that was the standard I set for myself. A friend of mine who was not a strong player at the local store I went to completely changed the way I viewed myself and I realized that I had set unrealistic expectations. I had been bombing out of events at the time and zendikar was a set where I either did really well or got massacred. After one of these events I was talking to him and I said that I wished I could show these people how good of a player I was. He told me that it didnt matter how well I did in events that he still considered me a good player. The way I talked about certain cards and how to play the game and getting card advantage and advancing your board state was on a higher
lvl than of his understanding of the game.

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Post #14 by hamfactorial » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:39 pm

WAAC= Win at all costs

I think I've read the article you mention, but I interpret it differently. If I'm in a really poor situation (mull to 4, bad matchup, way behind on board), such that I can't see myself winning by playing conservatively, I'll play towards a high variance out (Bonfire off the top, drawing a 1-of hoser).

If the game state is even, and you can't see more upside by making a particular play, you are better off doing nothing or getting safe damage in. The situation you described was even, if not slightly weighted in your favor.

Sacrificing the Mutavault, then the Phoenix to his Demon when you were at 18 committed you to relying on a top-deck to push through the damage that the Phoenix and Mutavault previously provided.

Since YP triggers on cast instead of resolution, you can make tokens to feed to Demon or Agent triggers (or keep your Mutavault ready if in a pinch). He can't swing into your
board for fear of an attack+burn response.

You didn't say so, but I assume that agent blocked your YP and killed him, removing your first source of VCA. You sacrificing the Phoenix removed the other. Also, why not burn the Agent and keep your YP alive instead of doming him for 4?

At 18 life, you had 2 turns where you could have taken hits from a 6/6 Demon before being in danger of a single lethal attack. In 2-3 draw steps, you can expect to amass some more burn or an extra threat/chump blocker.

To me, the winning line looks most like "take 6 from Demon, EOT Helix, untap, activate Mutavault, swing with YP, token, Mutavault, holding burn up for a blocker or his face, leaving behind a token for surprise tricks/Demon sac if alpha fails".

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Post #15 by zemanjaski » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:58 am

You don't need to play to get lucky when you're clearly ahead, and you are. Life and time are resources, much like cards in hand, and you've got a substantial advantage in both. By keeping threats on the board you increase the relative value of your cards and draws and decrease the value of his.

To be honest, you picked the worst possible line / justification, but hopefully you can learn from it.

"Playing to get lucky" is appropriate when there is no longer a clear path to victory ~ you're only way to win becomes a sequence of unlikely but still plausible events and you play like they WILL happen (so as to preserve the small chance that they will); knowing when to do this might snare you an extra 1 win in 20 games or so, maybe even less, but it makes a huge difference in the long run (stealing a game win can win a match or a tournament after all).

/ Zem
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Post #16 by imopen2 » Wed Apr 09, 2014 10:48 pm

A classic mistake that less experienced players make is to value their life total over their creatures and spells. A win at 1 life is no different from a win at 20 life, and, while your life points are just as much a resource as your creatures, they do nothing to pressure your opponent. Take the damage, force him to leave creatures back to block. YP is like the literal best card you could have had in this situation and you allowed him to die.

The upside is that this will serve as a good learning experience.
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Post #17 by zenbitz » Wed Apr 09, 2014 11:50 pm

I like this thread.

>I do still hold on the idea that results determine a player on some level though im trying to change that mentality

This is true - but only in the LONG run.

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Post #18 by zenbitz » Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:13 am

I tend to block with Chandra's Phoenix instead of sac'ing it to demon. Don't need to be handing out +1/+1 counters and then you can mortars or helix said demon (although need another spell or firedancer to get your bird back).

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Post #19 by hamfactorial » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:27 am

Can't play Mortars after blocking, but otherwise a fine line.

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Post #20 by zemanjaski » Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:34 pm

Definitely better to block than to sac; he +1/+1 counters can actually change the race math.
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Post #21 by Tanro » Thu Apr 17, 2014 6:48 pm

zemanjaski » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:34 am wrote:Definitely better to block than to sac; he +1/+1 counters can actually change the race math.

y
Also, in my expierance, people not sacking stuff to d-demon scares the crap out of black mages (when you have a flier on deck to block with). The know (or think they know) burn or combat tricks are coming.

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Post #22 by zenbitz » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:17 pm

I had another strategy based question... it's really probably a better "play better magic question" but it absolutely has application to RW burn vs. control.

Let's say I have a 2 power beater or mutavault and my UWx opponent has Azorious Charm or Last Breath mana open.

Under what situations do you hold back and when do you swing in? Does it matter if it's a regular creature or mutavault? I played one match vs. esper where I had like 3 mutavaults last breath'd, and eventually lost to Elspeth in game 3.

I have a feeling that these cards (and also dissolve/syncopate) should be played around *as much as possible* in this matchup (unless you are on the Aetherling / Elspeth clock)... but I have concerns about playing draw-go when they keep throwing out Jaces and lands and will eventually get a Rev past a skullcrack for 8 or something I am never going to beat.

The *as much as possible* is doing quite
a bit of work in that sentence.

I feel constantly torn between trying to force damage in and waiting for them to tap out. Maybe part of the problem is that I haven't played control much myself, and I don't really have good reads on their holdings.

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Post #23 by hamfactorial » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:54 pm

The decision to attack with Mutavault depends on several factors, so the answer isn't easy to give.

Things to think about:

1. Does the value of dealing them 2 damage outweigh the potential for disaster if they kill/bounce your Mutavault? If they're at 2, or if a successful attack puts them near lethal this or next turn, probably yes. If they're at 20, probably not.

2. Will baiting an Azorius Charm or Last Breath let you resolve a more resilient threat? If they have to tap out of counterspell mana to kill/bounce your Mutavault, letting you resolve a Chandra (or whatever), it may be worth it.

3. If they're a combo deck, and you don't have an answer to their combo, will forcing them to remove your creature delay their combo? Do it.

Think about these things during the opponent's turn so you can quickly move to combat if that's the right line. Charging confidently into the red zone will entice them to
suspect that you "have it" and bias their lines towards making a safer play for them, which may be better for you.

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Post #24 by Elricity » Thu Apr 17, 2014 11:47 pm

Generally, the mutavaults are useful in the control matchup any turn they don't have mana open to interact with it. Early game if they have to play tap lands or any time you force them to tap out for sorceries are a good time to get a chance for free shocks. You're trying to set them in no win scenarios where if they use verdict, sphere, or Jace, they're still getting whittled down.

Eventually, you might hit enough extra lands that they're worth throwing away to force them to tap on your turn but if you can't afford to risk the land, don't. Draw go is not a bad place to be vs esper.

There's very little reason to play around dissolve except for your big recurring threats (YP, trouble or Chandra). You probably don't want to walk a phoenix into a syncopate unless you have other threats it's covering but it can eat dissolves all day long. You don't care about them 1 for 1 counterspelling your burn spells.

I'm
not sure if I care about them azorius charming anything.

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Post #25 by zemanjaski » Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:43 am

Tanro » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:48 am wrote:
zemanjaski » Thu Apr 10, 2014 7:34 am wrote:Definitely better to block than to sac; he +1/+1 counters can actually change the race math.

y
Also, in my expierance, people not sacking stuff to d-demon scares the crap out of black mages (when you have a flier on deck to block with). The know (or think they know) burn or combat tricks are coming.


Because blocking either forces them to spend a card to get damage through and makes it harder for them to race you (Demon is smaller). This isn't rocket science.
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redthirst » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:20 am wrote:1 - Drunk, surly zem
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