[Primer] Boros Burn

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 6:20 am

Welp, I came within arm's reach of ultimate victory tonight at Game Day, but I fell short in Game 3 of the finals to a Mono Green Stompy deck. I'm trying not to be a salty dog about it, but truth be told, I punted the match by failing to make a critical block. I want to tell myself that I'm a big dummy, but I have to look at the bigger picture:


What bigger picture?

Well this will take some explaining...

It hasn't been a good week for me in Magic since I returned after this little hiatus. I had a disappointing FNM last week, followed by an even more abysmal Monday Night Magic, and then I had a repeat FNM with a poor 2-2 performance. These two losses from last night bothered well into this morning (Saturday) for several reasons. Both matches were against Mono Blue Devotion that went on to a Game 3. With 6 games played total from the two matches, my opponents had a Master of Waves on turn 4 every time, even
when keeping a 1 land hand. I lost because of my manabase; either I was falling behind in tempo because of Temples, missing land drops, or couldn't find a White source period. It was terrible and I carried with me into the next day.

I had some time to think about it. I actually believe that I'm playing as correctly as I can, but why am I losing? I know that I've had a break, but did I really expect to just waltz in and mop of the floor with an entirely different version of Burn? I must be high! What about variance? It's possible that I'm being repaid by karma for every time I landed a turn 4 Hellrider in a 21-22 land deck like clockwork, as my opponent stumbled on what they assumed to be a very superior manabase. It's likely, but probably not true, since that idea is putting the fact that I'm responsible for my losses out of my hands. I'd like to think that I'm responsible, someway and somehow, for my losses. I believe it necessary to own up to my mistakes, if I've made them.

It's all
disheartening, but I know that I'm still hungry to play. It's weird. I haven't felt this urge to play this much Magic in a very long time. I just want to play. By the time I decided that I was going to Game Day, I decided that it was now time to just say FUCK IT. I want to play, right? I want to have fun, right? And I want to win, right? Well, then I was just going to have to play what my heart tells me to play and fucking play it to the best of my ability.

My mind wandered to this thread...I read everyone's thoughts on what I wrote about the Eidolon. Feels good, guys. I'm glad ya'll enjoyed it. The last few days (or pages, or whatever) has been pretty enjoyable now that we've all finished our big pow-wow and debate over Eidolon. I'm loving that everyone's branching out and trying what they want to try. Is it possible that we're all growing as players and figuring out what we like individually, all the while sharing reports and data? I sure as hell think so. Cheers to
making progress! :cheers:

Also, that Spark-Burn list from Dauntless is pretty sexy. :jam:

I saw a suggestion that I'd made to LD about running Ash Zealot main and bringing in Eidolon to add further aggression against Control. I figured it was time to take my own advice. Ashley is where my heart lies (it's no secret), so it was a pretty easy choice to make. And at the end of the day, I really like to apply early pressure. I like to do some combat math. I love the "sword and shield" duo of a first striking wall and a flying haste bird that I can rebuy. Nothing says "Come get sum!" like Ash Fucking Zealot. Once that choice was made, everything fell into place for. The sideboard made itself. And quite honestly, it's within 1-2 cards of doing everything that I want it do. I'll explain:

*No 5 drops. I
really want to actively scry away any excess lands after 4. No fuss, no muss. If I get past 4, fine, but I'm not seeking it out just to play a singleton Stormbreath Dragon and/or an Assemble the Legion. 23 land seems good for up to seven 4-drops after sideboarding. That's stretching it and I'm not going any higher.

*I've literally had to reach for some anti-control tech in only 1 game I've played (in 3 different areas/metas, mind you!). People love their creature decks, what can I say? And should I encounter Control, most of the players around here (and for good reason) stuff their deck with an excessive amounts of removal (to the point where almost every game goes to time involving them). I need to be better at dealing with different speeds of creature decks - little aggro, midrange, mirror match, Nykthos decks, etc. I either need to become a control deck or just race faster. The Blind Obedience + Spark Trooper tech seems just as good now as it did 2 months ago. It allows you to slow fast decks
down and keep a midrange deck relatively fee of blockers for Spark Trooper and Company to hit hard. Plus, it all still works well against all Monsters variants.

* I really think just the Eidolon can handle the job nicely coming in against Control, freeing up some board space. Even Spark Trooper can brought for more pressure; it's great because it's aggressive, can plow a a ram (giggity), and it isn't affected by Jace much. Plus it has that Dauntless Spark-Burn feel to it...

* I love the 3/1 split on Firedancer and Chain, plus the 2 Mortars. These cards aren't coming out anytime soon.

Anyways, some more notes from playing with Eidolon: I actually played against some Control tonight and it really made my opponents scratch their heads. It's such a ballsy card. At some point in one game, our life totals went from 20 to single digits in about 2 turns. Most people can't comprehend the fact that a Burn player would risk huge chunks of life to kill the opponent. Well, to that I say, "
Greatness at any cost.
" And that's a pretty bold statement, but it sums up the point nicely: I'll do whatever it takes to kill you before I die. The 18 points of life I lost didn't mean shit when you're at zero. Most of the Burn puts you ahead in life totals anyway, with Boros Charm and Helix at the top of the list. Also, there's just nothing better than watching your opponents think really hard about each turn. They're having to start thinking like us: 1-2 tuns ahead mentally with resource management and sequencing at the top of the list, with creating decision trees based on what the opponent (in this case: YOU) may or may not do. Admittedly, it's a hard way for most people to think. You'll have learn to occupy yourself somehow while your opponents continually go 'into the tank.'

Anyways, even though I punted tonight, I'm really happy with the deck. Like I said, I'm within a card or two off, maybe, but I feel like I'm molding it to suit me. It's a
good thing to know what you like. To have that conviction. To feel like a deck is an extension of your person.

The important thing is that I really did have some fun tonight. Would I have loved to take 1st? Hell fucking yeah. But I'm content knowing that I played a solid deck pretty damn well. I made a bonehead decision, which cost me the game, but I feel that there's more to work on. Changes can be made, both with deck and with me as a player. It's enough to make someone hungrier enough to keep on playing. The bigger picture, at least for me right now, is to fucking enjoy doing this. It's really easy to get caught up in the competitiveness playing Magic. Especially as a Red player. Especially as a Burn player. We get in that mindset where it's all tunnel vision and burn-kill-destroy aggressiveness. And when we tilt from a rough beat it feels like something out of a bad country song (I lost my dog, my truck, and my sister-wife...). It makes everything from working on a deck
to tournament preparation to grinding feel like a goddamn chore. Amiright?

For example, how often have you pondered that fucking triangle of 2-drops in your head?

You know what I'm talking about: Pillar Bear, Ashley, and YP$.

It's enough to drive someone crazy.

Fucking cray cray.

*Except that Z broke the 4th dimensional barrier by saying "Fuck it, I ain't running any of them!" He may try to blather on about something, something, soft meta, something, something, advantage, something....but whatevs.

Just pick one and go. Play the best damn game of Magic you can. Learn from your mistakes and have fun. Observe and enjoy what you like playing this game.

THAT'S the big fucking picture.
Last edited by Khaospawn on Sun May 25, 2014 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sun May 25, 2014 6:23 am

Going too Deep?

[deck]Lands (23)
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures (4)
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (32)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Toil // Trouble

Sideboard (15)

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sun May 25, 2014 6:24 am

I actually thing Glare of Heresy might be necessary...

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 6:26 am

Going too Deep?

[deck]Lands (23)
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures (4)
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (32)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Toil // Trouble

Sideboard (15)

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]
I'd tap that.

But I'd tweak the sideboard a little for myself. I don't like playing with Stormbreath in this kind of deck.
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Postby magicdownunder » Sun May 25, 2014 6:41 am

Going too Deep?

[deck]Lands (23)
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures (4)
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (32)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Toil // Trouble

Sideboard (15)

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]
Its solid, but I don't think your going to enjoy that MD (outside the UW MU) I would recommend that you get some testing in before your next money event. (please note: nothing wrong with enjoying
a more aggressive deck - for example control and devo are good decks but I'm terrible at them because I don't enjoy it enough to read into my horrible plays and end up blaming the deck).

BTW your SB'ing plan earlier wasn't incorrect, though I think Erebos is quite bad.....

P.S. dauntless268 Trooper list actually did well in an SCG event as well :smileup: (someone else ran it card-for-card version based on one of dauntless268's peak hour DE wins) - since its doing well both on paper and online I think its def. recommendable.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sun May 25, 2014 7:11 am

Erebos was good until he got sphere'd lol. I was fairly happy with the list, just struggling with UW. I just can't beat that deck. Open toany and all advice.

Probably switch Erebos for a Chandra / glare / banishing light.

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 7:18 am

Erebos was good until he got sphere'd lol. I was fairly happy with the list, just struggling with UW. I just can't beat that deck. Open toany and all advice.

Probably switch Erebos for a Chandra / glare / banishing light.
You're never going to "beat the deck." You're going to beat the opponent. If you're happy with the list, then you're probably just a few tweaks away from finding an edge somehow.

But stop agonizing over it. You're putting way too much pressure on yourself to find some magic bullet to completely neuter UW. You're not gonna find one.

And, of course, I mean all of this in the best way possible. :)
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Postby LP, of the Fires » Sun May 25, 2014 8:30 am

Just play Wear/tear. That card is so goddamn good. If I'm playing Red and White I'm playing at least 1, maybe 2 copies of that card in my board. It screws up UW's control over the game, it's doom blade against MBA, you still games vs. hexproof, the list goes on.

It's reactive? Give a shit. I don't care how I win the game.

I also have been rather hungry to play, though I had to skip gameday to assist my grandmother moving which is fine.

I basically read Patrick Chapins tourney report about the PT and I have the fire back like never before. I REALLY want to qual for the next pro tour and from all the shit I've been reading over the last month, I've realized I simply haven't worked hard enough. I mean, I do all the research, the decks I build are sound, I'm familiar with all the archetypes and all the matchups but I don't actually ever HAMMER anything out.

That's what I'm good at! I live for details
which is why I love sideboarding and I'm simply not grinding out matchups like I used to. The reason I was winning an absurd amount of the time with devotion red was in part because the deck is(was?) inherently broken, but the main factor was I loved it and I would jam games constantly figuring out all the lines so that when I was in tourneys instead of looking for all the "cool" plays(which is all I ever do when i play magic) I'd be subconsciously aware of them, but just take the quick kill and bask in my own cleverness after matches(can you tell I'm very conceited).

I need to get back to that point of where in addition tier 1 information, I have tier 1 mechanics. Whether or not everyone here knows this or not, a BIG part of playing tournament magic is conserving mental energy. This doesn't mean play on auto-pilot, but it does mean having your "scripts" hardwired so that you cut down on the time you're actively thinking about plays enabling you to play optimally in the final
rounds. To be a champion, you have to be able to close. Keith has first hand experience with this. Being tired/fatigued/distracted will fuck up your mojo. Besides eating/sleeping right, you have to have a firm handle on your 'cruz control'.

Intense repetition not only conserves mental gas, it also SCIENTIFICALLY increases your probability of achieving flow, or in laymens terms, 'getting in the zone'. A player in the zone is hyper focused and it you basically have super powers for as long as your in that state. You're reads are more accurate, your instincts are always on point etc. I've been there a couple times playing magic and it's exacerbated my ability to read opponents hands. Unfortunately, it's usually only been either small cash tourneys or GPTs, but for all intents and purposes, my opponents where playing with their hands face up.

Sounds good don't it? Time to grind.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


Patrick chapin

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Postby dauntless268 » Sun May 25, 2014 8:37 am

P.S. dauntless268 Trooper list actually did well in an SCG event as well :smileup: (someone else ran it card-for-card version based on one of dauntless268's peak hour DE wins) - since its doing well both on paper and online I think its def. recommendable.
Lol, I realized there was a total of 3 Burn lists with Spark Trooper main making Top 8 of States... :rofl:
MTGO handle: Clemens268

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Postby magicdownunder » Sun May 25, 2014 8:42 am

Just play Wear/tear. That card is so goddamn good.
What is actually killing you in UW Control? Its not usually the Dpshere imo - its the combination of card draw, lifegain and counters.

I won't slam down the W//T unless I know they're on sheep..... (that said most people are on 3x Sheep, had a game vs ProtossX where my own Revel dealt 18 damage too me because he had 2 sheep out which I couldn't deal with + Elixir of Immortality)
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Postby dpaine88 » Sun May 25, 2014 2:11 pm

Going too Deep?

[deck]Lands (23)
6 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures (4)
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (32)
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Toil // Trouble

Sideboard (15)

4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Erebos, God of the Dead[/deck]
Near identical to what I won Game day with.

Unless your meta has a lot of aggro, this variant is the tits.

I was going to my old LGS(back in town) where everyone always plays midrange and
control mostly. It was the perfect choice.

I did play a very good player with Esper AGGRO and it still wasn't even close. Plus with Firedancer in the board, aggro is pretty easy.

I ran 2 Wear/Tear over 1 Chandra/Erebos and 1 Boros GG over 1 mana conf.

W/T ended up being pretty bad for me as I had it sitting in my hand game 2/3 vs Control and had no targets =(
Burn baby burn!

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Postby zemanjaski » Sun May 25, 2014 2:26 pm

Went 5-2 at the 5K; lost my win and in to hexrproof when I couldn't find a white source after scrying four times. Lost my other round in Game 3 when I bricked eight draw steps in a row to an opponent on three life. C'est la vie. Massively tilting. Our group of four finished 4th, 11th, 12th and 15th which is reasonable.

End up audibling into this after seeing the local meta the day before and seeing how wrong i was about what people were playing:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1
Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Keening Apparition
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
3 Peak Eruption
[/deck]

Results:
2-1 vs Hexproof
2-0 vs Boros Burn (with Eidolon who is terrible)
1-2 vs BW Control (bricked off for eight turns)
2-0 vs Boros Burn (with Eidolon who is terrible)
2-1 vs BR Control
2-1 vs UW Control
1-2 vs Hexproof (couldn't find a white source)

I do think I was running 1 too many land, because I flooded out a lot, but I didn't have time to test the variation before running it. I have one more standard event for the season so I will probably run some variant of this for then because it was quite fun.
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Postby dpaine88 » Sun May 25, 2014 2:41 pm

Good shit Zem.

You are so good at the mirror, have you written anywhere specifically about how to play out the matchup?

EDIT: Mutavault returns to the sideboard!

EDIT2: Can you elaborate how Eidolon is terrible in the mirror? Seems the general consuses is that is when it is at its best.
Burn baby burn!

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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 5:09 pm

@LP - is there anyway you can send me Chapin's tournament report? I don't have premium on SCG...
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Postby LaZerBurn » Sun May 25, 2014 5:59 pm

@LP - is there anyway you can send me Chapin's tournament report? I don't have premium on SCG...
Sent you a PM Khaos :)
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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 6:00 pm

@LP - is there anyway you can send me Chapin's tournament report? I don't have premium on SCG...
Sent you a PM Khaos :)
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. Thank you! :D
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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 6:40 pm

Went 5-2 at the 5K; lost my win and in to hexrproof when I couldn't find a white source after scrying four times. Lost my other round in Game 3 when I bricked eight draw steps in a row to an opponent on three life. C'est la vie. Massively tilting. Our group of four finished 4th, 11th, 12th and 15th which is reasonable.

End up audibling into this after seeing the local meta the day before and seeing how wrong i was about what people were playing:

[deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands[
/b]
3 Boros Guildgate
8 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Glare of Heresy
3 Keening Apparition
4 Mizzium Mortars
1 Mutavault
3 Peak Eruption
[/deck]

Results:
2-1 vs Hexproof
2-0 vs Boros Burn (with Eidolon who is terrible)
1-2 vs BW Control (bricked off for eight turns)
2-0 vs Boros Burn (with Eidolon who is terrible)
2-1 vs BR Control
2-1 vs UW Control
1-2 vs Hexproof (couldn't find a white source)

I do think I was running 1 too many land, because I flooded out a lot, but I didn't have time to test the variation before running it. I have one more standard event for the season so I will probably run some variant of this for then because it was quite fun.


Don't take the tilt too hard, buddy. I've got several bad beat stories from over the past week. Magic is a funny game. Do I believe you played the best Magic you could've
played? I absolutely do. Do you believe that? That's for you to answer. But for the things out of your control, just remember that's exactly what it is: out of your control. Drawing 8 lands in a row is a bitch, but you can't change that.

+1 on using Keening Apparition. I like it a lot better than running Wear//Tear. It's aggressive.

I am curious as to what you want to use Peak Eruption against. Maybe I'm missing something?

I know you're not a fan of Eidolon. I would never say he's terrible (but even I'm shying away from maindecking him at the moment), but I do know that a lot of terrible players are running him and aren't using him in the right way. But, hey, their mistake is your victory.
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Postby Rhyno » Sun May 25, 2014 7:46 pm

EDIT2: Can you elaborate how Eidolon is terrible in the mirror? Seems the general consuses is that is when it is at its best.
I don't agree that it's the consensus, a lot of us think it's a liability (at least I think a lot of us do.)

I originally said it was just a bear with a symmetrical effect, i.e. bad. It's not quite as bad as I originally thought but I still think it only helps if you're in the position to force your opponent to play a losing race. It can also be just as bad for you.
I really like Eidolon, I'm going to a 1K right now and I have the Pyromancers and Eidolons sleeved up and I'm either running one or the other or both depending on the meta. If it's burn heavy I won't be maindecking the Eidolons.

Do you think
that's incorrect?

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Postby Tanro » Sun May 25, 2014 9:12 pm

Did piss poor at gameday thanks to being hatefucked out of the meta. 2/3 control players had gone and splashed green (azorius shell, caryatids, coursers, and hero's reunion + 2 extra bottles in the board) so I lost 2 matches and only won 1 game against them. I didn't even bother with the 2nd gameday at my store as it was a 15$ buy-in for 1st getting 1.5 boxes, 2nd getting a box, 3rd half box, and 4th 1/4th a box. So Lifegain, Much disapoint. No playing mat.

Not much I could against players that can reliably gain 40 or so life in a game.

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sun May 25, 2014 9:39 pm

Yet another second place because I hear mulls to 5 (just to get a land) and hands where you stick on 3 lands and draw all four [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] in the finals are good. 5 playmat near misses in a row. FML.

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Postby Purp » Sun May 25, 2014 10:03 pm

0-2 dropped the GP(shitty pool + I wanted to live the dream). Entered 4 standard win a boxes, won all of them. Chode rares for days.
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Postby Khaospawn » Sun May 25, 2014 10:16 pm

EDIT2: Can you elaborate how Eidolon is terrible in the mirror? Seems the general consuses is that is when it is at its best.
I don't agree that it's the consensus, a lot of us think it's a liability (at least I think a lot of us do.)

I originally said it was just a bear with a symmetrical effect, i.e. bad. It's not quite as bad as I originally thought but I still think it only helps if you're in the position to force your opponent to play a losing race. It can also be just as bad for you.
I really like Eidolon, I'm going to a 1K right now and I have the Pyromancers and Eidolons
sleeved up and I'm either running one or the other or both depending on the meta. If it's burn heavy I won't be maindecking the Eidolons.


Do you think that's incorrect?
I'm not a fan of him in the mirror. So no, it's not incorrect .
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Sun May 25, 2014 10:16 pm

So many commons / uncommons though!

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Postby Tyrael » Sun May 25, 2014 10:19 pm

Yet another second place because I hear mulls to 5 (just to get a land) and hands where you stick on 3 lands and draw all four [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] in the finals are good. 5 playmat near misses in a row. FML.
I feel ya mate, been sick on every game day since I started playing last year
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Postby magicdownunder » Sun May 25, 2014 11:14 pm

Here is the current list I'm running:

[deck=MDU's Rw Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Malice
1 Temple of Silence

Creatures 08
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Exile 03
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light

Burn 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Searing Blood

Sideboard 15
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
1 Fated Conflagration
1 Reprisal[/deck]
Last Time
SE Report 7098044
G1 R1 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G1 R2 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044[/url:
eslidp9c]
[url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrsiy_o2ts8]G1 R3 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044


G2 R1 Naya Hexproof vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G2 R2 Naya Hexproof vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044
G2 R3 Naya Hexproof vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098044

G3 Split

SE Report 7098125
G1 R1 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125
G1 R2 RDW vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125

G2 R1 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125
G2 R2 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7098125

G3 Split

SE Report 7101801
G1 R1 Esper Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G1 R2 Esper Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G1 R3 Esper Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801 <-- Revel was good here

G2 R1 UW Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G2 R2 UW Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G2 R3 UW Control vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801

G3 R1 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G3 R2 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
G3 R3 Dredge vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 7101801
SE Report 7129676
G1 R1 UW Control vs Rw Burn MDU SE 7129676
G2 R2 UW Control vs Rw Burn MDU SE 7129676

G2 R1 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn MDU SE 7129676
G2 R2 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn MDU SE 7129676

G3 Split
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Mon May 26, 2014 12:28 am

Will watch. Need to see what I'm doing wrong vs UW.

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Mon May 26, 2014 5:19 am

I could beat the opponent in those videos...lol. I guess the guy who keeps beating me is just:

A) Really good
B) Better than me
C) Really lucky ( 1 of elixir 5 times in three games? I want to live in the same world you do)

Either way, not going to worry about it. I accept that I have this game day curse, and I'll move on. Sealed PTQ on Saturday.

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Postby Loki » Mon May 26, 2014 8:15 am

Hello everybody,

this is my first post on these forums. I've followed the ongoing discussion on RW Burn for a couple of weekd, which both
convinced me of the validity of the deck and taught me how to get better at playing it. So, first of all, thanks to everybody
involved.

I thought I'd start with a very quick Tournament Report and a couple of questions to you guys, who are way more experienced
than me with this deck. I 5-0 the GameDay last saturday (by the way, dropping only one game to Esper in the finals) and the list
I played closely resembles Mr MDU's, with +1 Mana Confluence +1 Flames of the Firebrand -1 Shock -1 Boros Garrison. The SB,
on the other hand, is a bit different. Let's see if I manage to post the list here.

[deck]
Lands (23)
9 Mountain
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mutavault
1 Boros Guildgate
1 Mana Confluence

Creatures (8)

4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (29)
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Magma Jet
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Shock
2 Searing Blood
2 Chaind to the Rocks
1 Flames of the Firebrand
1 Banishing Light

Sideboard (15)
4 Satyr Firedancer
3 Eidolon of the Great Revel
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Harness by Force
1 Wear/Tear
[/deck]

I was expecting lots of midrange/monster decks and few UW/Esper, which skewed my decisions in building the SB.

Very quick report.

T1: Jund Monsters (2-0). Not much to say on game 1, he mulled to 5 and just got crushed. I did not bring in SFD as he showed me quite a removal package
and his creatures where mostly hexproof or 5/5s. So I opted for 2 more CttR and Harness by Force. I saw neither in G2 but won easily nonetheless. In hindsight
I should have brought in Mortars, to handle the Coursiers.

T2: RG Monsters (2-0). Again, no weird Bow of Nylea shenanigans in G1
meant that I won that one easily. He had very sparse removal, so I brought in SFD
which allowed me to Boros Charm his Coursiers :) and go for the win.

T3: BW Humans (2-0). He was very aggressive in G1, so I had to play the control role. YP$ really shined here, since most of his creatures are x/1s which
are easily blocked by Elemental Tokens. I brought in Eidolons and proceeded to drop one on turn two and that pretty much sealed the game (I think it
dealt up to 8 point of damage w/o attacking, that game)

T4: Bg Devotion (2-0). I was not aware he was on the green variant since he had no non-swamp land game one, so I may have SBed wrong, bringing in
two more CttR which are vulnerable to his Abrupt Decays and Golgari Charms. Anyway, G1 I managed to keep his devotion count low and always keep
2 mana open for Skullcrak on Merchant. In G2 I brought in Harness by Force (he played 4 Desecration Demon and 4 Master of the Feast)
and proceeded
to topdeck one for the win (stealing his 3/1 intimidate and a fat flyer). Better lucky than good, I think :) Anyhow, I guess I mis-SBed here.

T5: Esper (2-1). G1 I felt pretty favored. I read that it's considered a tough MU, and I agree that if they never miss a land drop and we draw one too
many land it can be really tough. Still, I never really felt worried any time I played Esper G1. Again, maybe it's pure dumb luck on my part :) I lost G2
to the combination of him going first, never missing land drops and me having too many answers (CttR, Banishing Light) to his very few threats, which
he protected via countermagic. In G3 I switched out all CttR for SFD. Does it make sense to you? I thought it could sneak in a couple of points of damage,
and it allowed me to burn down his FSP and Angels (should he have them) without
giving up pressure. It's really only cold to Verdict (given that I'd rather
he D-Sphered SFD than Chandra's Phoenix) but given that I played very few creatures both in G1 and G2 I had hoped he sided out some Verdicts.
What do you guys think? Is it a dumb move?

That's waaay to long for a first post. Thanks for reading and congrats on this nice community.

Loki

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Postby magicdownunder » Mon May 26, 2014 9:06 am

Grats on your win Loki :smileup:

I feel that 3 Mizzium Mortar, 4 Chains, W//T and 2 Harness by Force since would really lower Dancer's potency due too the amount of burn you would need to cut to include everything, I'm also not a huge fan of CTTR or Dancer vs Control either but a win is a win.

@J_S: You've tested the the SCG brew card for card right? What were your thoughts on Dictate of the Twin Gods? I've been testing as my answer vs BWx (+ maybe Bx and control) but I haven't manage to draw it yet, gut feeling is telling me its horrible so I should just run Chandra, Pyromaster but the Johnny in me is telling me that one FNM I'll be able to drop the card and follow up with 1 or 2 burns for the win (that doesn't sound that unrealistic does it?).
Last edited by magicdownunder on Mon May 26, 2014 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Mon May 26, 2014 12:45 pm

I'll never play it again.

I cast it vs uw, he let it resolve, I cast my warleader's helix (lethal) and he countered it, then untapped and killed me with mutavaults thanks to my enchantment.

The SCG guy isn't playing it any more either.

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Postby Loki » Mon May 26, 2014 8:18 pm

Grats on your win Loki :smileup:
Thanks, though the environment was not the most competitive ever :)
I feel that 3 Mizzium Mortar, 4 Chains, W//T and 2 Harness by Force since would really lower Dancer's potency due too the amount of burn you would need to cut to include everything, I'm also not a huge fan of CTTR or Dancer vs Control either but a win is a win.
Yes, I think that SB decisions are one of the areas where I need to get much better than I currently am. So, would you suggest to just cut CttR and reactive
cards and bring in T/T in order to race them G2, even if they are on the draw? Can we
afford to just ignore FSP? That's another angle that I haven't tried yet and it might be worth exploring.

Loki

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Postby BrainsickHater » Tue May 27, 2014 1:48 am

I want to apologize for making such a stink about Eidolon and YP$. I tried out MD Eidolon at Game Day because my store's meta seemed really soft to it and it performed very well. My matches were an absolute breeze until I got to the finals at which point I punted hard.

Game Day Report incoming:

[deck]
Creatures:
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments:
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants and Sorceries:
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Shock
3 Searing Blood

Lands:
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Mutavault
2 Mana Confluence
9 Mountain

Sideboard:
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Wear // Tear
2 Harness by Force
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 Toil // Trouble
4 Satyr Firedancer
[/deck]

Round 1
vs Dredge:

Game 1 my opponent played an early whip, but I had the double skullcrack hand and was able to race him on the back of some creatures and burn. My plan for this matchup is to end the game as quickly as possible before all their creatures reach an insane size and they can effectively race us; +1 Chain, +2 Wear, +2 Harness, -3 Shock, -2 Boros Charm. The sideboard plan brings in impactful tempo cards that clear threats for 1 mana or hit for a ton of damage in case of a long game. Game 2 my hand was a little awkward with my "burn" spells being 2x Searing Blood and 1x Harness by Force. Fortunately, my opponent wasn't the strongest player and he made a couple of misplays that I believe won me the game.

Round 2 vs Esper Control
These games were pretty uneventful but I got to see both Eidolon of the Great Revel and Toil // Trouble do some work. Eidolon was obviously great against control; twice my opponent tapped out for supreme verdict to get
rid of it, allowing me to do 5-7 points of follow-up damage. I had an interesting situation where my opponent passed turn with 3 mana up and I had Trouble in hand and Eidolon on the field. I figured he had instant speed removal for Eidolon but also had a counter spell, so I decided that I would rather keep Eidolon and have him counter the trouble. Trouble for 5 was countered, which left my opponent to receive 4 from the Eidolon and tap out next turn for verdict. I think this example showcases how this deck beats control; we capitalize on the fact that we do so much more than them in the early turns of the game. Sideboaring was +4 Trouble, +2 Wear // Tear, +2 Chandra, -3 Chained, -3 Searing Blood, -2 Shock

Round 3 vs BG Devotion
These games were interesting. Game 1 Eidolon was a house. T2 on the play I drop Eidolon. My opponent responds by shocking himself to get green mana for Abrupt Decay on the Eidolon. The rest of the game I sling stuff at his face, capitalizing on
the tempo gained by that turn. I SB as follows: +2 Harness, +1 Chained, + 4 Toil // Trouble, -3 Shock, -3 Searing Blood, -1 Boros Charm. After the first game where I won very handily, I thought I should board to maximize tempo, but I realize that this is a mistake. My hand is destroyed by multiple pieces of discard and the game ends quickly to runner-runner Gray Merchants and mutavault beats. In Game 3 I add +2 Chandra for -2 Boros Charm. This game I got my opponent down to 9 before he double duressed me for the last two cards, two warleader's helices, I had in hand. I rip Chandra off the top on my next draw and he's stuck on three lands. GG no re. This matchup basically showed me how terribly wrong I was about not boarding Chandra in during game 2. The CA is huge and she single-handedly won me Game 3.

Round 4 draw into Top 4 (really small turnout after a PTQ the previous day

Semifinals against BG Dredge
I faced a different dredge pilot, a
friend of mine. We talked about the matchup and then proceeded to play two awful games of magic. Game 1 my friend mulled to 5, and game 2 he got mana-screwed.

Finals against Naya Aggro
Going into this match, I knew my deck was heavily favored but I still was very nervous about this matchup. The deck isn't incredibly popular and I had only played against it once before. Furthermore, I knew from a friend of mine who rarely stops playing WW variants that there would be an abundance of tricks to play around, even moreso in the Naya version. I ended up losing the finals to an incredibly stupid misplay on my part and it just goes to show how awful I am at playing against aggro. In Game 1 I had an answer to everything my opponent had and a Phoenix to close out the game. I even drew into enough Chained to the Rocks to cleanly eliminate every Voice of Resurgence he played. I sideboarded as follows; +4 SFD, +1 Chained, +2 Chandra, -4 Eidolon, -3 Skullcrack. Game 2 went very
similarly to the first except for the very end. I'm at 20 life and I magma jet a creature. I see Lightning Strike and Chained and I leave Chained on top of Strike to answer any problematic creature, namely Voice, but I still want the burn. 2nd Main my opponent plays fleecemane lion. I draw Chained and pass turn knowing I have LIghtning Strike on top to take care of the lion. I can afford to take 3 since I'm at 20. However, I neglected to notice the number of land my opponent had in play and he activates monstrous on his Lion. Next turn he suits it up with Unflinching courage and THAT is GG no re. Game 3 was much closer and I made some small mistakes, but nothing that I think would have made a difference. He ended up topdecking two unflinching courages which I couldn't beat.

Other Myriad Thoughts:

- Firstly, Eidolon was excellent all day and I really should have tested him more before I opened my stupid mouth. I playtested against aggro and he is definitely
skilltesting in that matchup when determining whether or not to trade him or how to sequence plays so that you end up ahead of your opponent on life, breaking the symmetry of the card. I almost think that SFD isn't even necessary in the SB to handle creature decks. I oftentimes feel that I can't afford the tempo loss that spending my second turn to play SFD takes, and if I hold onto him until I can play him with another spell, my hand is often rather empty and he feels rather weak. He definitely does completely roll over people in some games though. I just wonder if that level of power is completely necessary to beat aggro, especially when those SB slots could be dedicated to the slower decks that dominate the format.

- I've seen some discussion on Dictate of the Twin Gods and I'll give my two cents based on my very limited testing. I was facing against a rogue Dega midrange deck and we in a board lock between Desecration Demon and BBoV VS Chandra, YP and tokens, and a Phoenix. I played a
Dictate on my opponent's end step, untapped with 6 mana, and bursted him down from 14 with 2 burn spells and a Chandra activation. That's probably one of the situations where the card is most powerful and exactly the reason why I boarded it in. Against Bx variants both players often end up with an empty hand from which they each slowly rebuild. Dictate gives us the explosive power we need to end the game. With that said, in most situations I don't think we need the card to win the game (as it's most powerful when our hand is full) and even in the situation I described earlier, the game looked pretty good for me, although the outcome was certainly uncertain.

- I've also seen some discussion on how to beat control consistently. I've seen some players that feel like they can never quite get there against control and others who treat the matchup almost as a bye. I can say that I started out being able to rarely win more than 1 game against control and that I am now very confident in the matchup.
One of the things that helps a lot is Eidolon + Toil // Trouble. The more early cards we play that attack their weak early game, the better this matchup is for us. It is almost impossible for a control player to beat us if we hit the ground running. You can ignore some degree of hate when sideboarding as it is better to be proactive and make it unlikely for SB hate to show up in time than to be reactive to it. Another thing that helps is aggressive mulliganing. If your 7 card hand has 3 lands in it and a Warleader's Helix + Chandra's Phoenix, good fucking luck. Unless one of the remaining cards is Eidolon, the hand will likely do very little until Turn 3 and your opponent will have ample lands and resources to keep your tempo in check until they go over the top of you.

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Postby Lightning_Dolt » Tue May 27, 2014 2:41 am

Three colour control is close to a bye. Uw is not.

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Postby zemanjaski » Tue May 27, 2014 4:14 am

Good shit Zem.

You are so good at the mirror, have you written anywhere specifically about how to play out the matchup?

EDIT: Mutavault returns to the sideboard!

EDIT2: Can you elaborate how Eidolon is terrible in the mirror? Seems the general consuses is that is when it is at its best.
Yes, I have an article about red mirrors here and on CFB. As for Burn mirrors specifically, it is mostly proper sequencing, superior scry decisions and better sideboarding I guess.

My comment was not about Eidolon in the mirror, where I think it is fine, but in general, as I feel it is poorly positioned in the current format which emphasizes creature combat.
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Postby Kaitscralt » Tue May 27, 2014 4:17 am

draft
Standard hobos who play budget garbage should be looked upon with suspicion.

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Postby zemanjaski » Tue May 27, 2014 4:22 am

Work :(

Soon my friend, soon. This week is real busy, got a GPT, Nationals, PTQ, $1K and another PTQ in the next month :/

Will get at you on skype some night this week though.
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Postby Kaitscralt » Tue May 27, 2014 4:24 am

Work :(

Soon my friend, soon. This week is real busy, got a GPT, Nationals, PTQ, $1K and another PTQ in the next month :/

Will get at you on skype some night this week though.
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Postby zemanjaski » Tue May 27, 2014 4:29 am

I know those feels.
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Postby Wipe Out » Tue May 27, 2014 4:57 am

Game day write up. Went 6-0 at 16 person game day, 12-2 in overall games. Snagged my first playmat (just started playing again 8 months ago after a 15 year hiatus) and some packs. Played a modified “classic MDU” burn. I just recently picked up my Eidolons with a penchant for revelry, but I didn’t feel comfortable jamming them in without playtesting so the SB is a bit old-school.


[deck]
Land: 23
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Mana Confluence
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Malice
3 Mutavault
8 Mountain

Creatures: 8

4 Young Pyromancer
[card]4 Chandra's Phoenix[/card]

Spells: 29
4 Magma Jet
[card:
3liphhg5]2 Searing Blood[/card]
4 Lightning Strike
[card]4 Warleader's Helix[/card]
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 Shock
3 Chained to the Rocks

Sideboard: 15

3 Satyr Fire-dancer
3 Mizzium Mortars
[card]2 Wear//Tear[/card]
[card]3 Toil//Trouble[/card]
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Banishing Light
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
[/deck]

Matchups. Six rounds:

Match 1: Mono-green devotion/stompy by Stephen
Deck notes: Like G/r monsters, just more consistent but w/o stormbreath or removal.
G1: I’m on play, get YP$ down. He threatens to go off with Nykthos and plays
a BTE into BTE but searing blood and shock prevent too many devotion shenanigans. Phoenix and YP tokens do the work.
G2: More of the same, save my chains for polukranos and take over game. Luckily he didn’t get his Nylea’s Disciple out.
SB: +1 CttR, +1 Banishing Light, +3 MM, -4 Skullcrack (hadn’t seen Nylea’s Disciple at all), -1 shock


Match 2
: “Non-traditional Junk” by Joseph
Deck Notes: Odd build, must be off some recent trend. Packs Athreos, G/W Ajani, Brain Maggot, and a couple Coursers.
G1&2: Burn is too fast for this goofy deck. Brain maggot is annoying but if I can cast searing blood on it, I’m the one getting value. Not much to tell, 5-6 round games.
Didn't SB as he didn't seem to want to SB much and I caught him flat-footed.

Match 3: B/w Devotion by Brian
Deck notes: Monoblack with a splash towards B/W midrange. Normal underworld dreams, thoughtseize, gary, DD, pack rat shell but with obzedat, banishing light, and
life-ram in the sideboard.
G1: On the play. He T1 thoughtseizes, grabs Boros Charm, then proceeds to drop pack rat T2 when I had searing blood in hand. Burn off rat, play T3 Phoenix, T4 Phoenix, keep up skullcrack for T5 gary and done.
G2: Can’t get a skullcrack for the life of me. I chip away at him but he has good removal/Thoughtseize and eventually gets 2 gary, even after I mortar one of them. Obzedat comes down and I have no gas. Kept drawing chains which didn't help against Ghost Dad and Blood Baron.
G3: On the play again. Opening hand is 1 Triumph, 1 muta, 1 Jet, YP$, Phoenix, Charm, Toil//Trouble. T1, drop Temple, see another temple coming. T2, play second temple, keep a phoenix on top. T3, TT for 6, game is pretty quick from there.
SB: +1 Chains, +3 Mortars, +3 TT (on the play), -2 searing blood, -2 Shock (-4 on the play and -1 Charm).

Match 4: RDW with Fanatic of Mogis by Kurt
Deck notes: Mainly a RDW deck with reckoner, zealots, cackler,
healthy amount of burn, and FoM.
G1: We both mull to 5 (one landers both times). He burns off my YP and puts a reckoner down. I Helix the Reckoner and chip away with 2 Phoenix into burn range.
G2: He’s on the play. Searing blood his zealot, chains a reckoner and then finish him off with 2 Charms and some assorted other burn and phoenix.
SB: +3 Firedancer, +3 MM, -4 Skullcrack, -2 Charm


Match 5: Naya Midrange by Richard
Deck Notes: Courser, Stormbreath, Elspeth, Polukranos, G/W Ajani.
G1: T2 YP, T3 Phoenix, T4-6 Helix. He is unhappy.
G2: Somewhere after T5, he’s sitting at 8 life, just plops down new Ajani, pluses it to grab a stormbreath. I have scryland, Mortars, 2 strike in hand with 4 land down. EOT I hit him with both strikes to get him down to 2, figuring that all I need to do is topdeck a phoenix or ANY BURN SPELL in the next few turns. In the meantime I can mortar dragon and just wait it out. Even with scryland I get nothing but Chains and land for four
turns and he lives the dream and ultimates ajani for 100 life while I have no gas in my hand. I suppose it's misplay on my part, I could’ve kept one LS as insurance against Ajani, but if I topdecked Helix or phoenix after using both LS I wanted to be able to finish him off.
G3: Triple Boros Charm.
SB: +1 Chains, +1 Banishing Light, +3 MM, -2 Searing Blood, -4 shock. Kept in skullcracks because of Courser and worried he might have unflinching courage.

Record 5-0, cut to top 4.
Top 4 people decide to split the 2 boxes of prizing. I have already beat each of the other 3 players in the Top 4 group, so two guys don’t feel like playing for the mat but one guy wants to play for it, which is legit.

Match 6: B/w devotion with Brian again.
G1&2: Blowouts. Chain demons or have him in burn range already when he gets blood baron down.

Playmat! :toot:[/
spoiler]

Random thoughts:

-Chandra. I love her dearly but really didn't find situations where I would rather put her in than keeping in more burn. If I'm already SBing 6 cards in, I don't want to add 2 more if I don't have to. So I will probably replace her.
-Would Eidolon have helped? Not sure, maybe a bit but I feel, novice as I am, I have been making good strides with getting value from YP and like him MD.
-Wear//tear. Not today, but in some matches I bring it in where Whip is highly problematic, hexproof decks, maybe dredge. But the majority of the time I'm not using it and it dilutes the burn package. Probably will replace.
-I still love this deck, may it last through M15. You have to endure the usual red mage hate but it has been a fantastic exercise in learning sequencing and leveraging "weaker" cards against other decks. Plus it is an archetype I played back in the olden days and it's fun to be on it again. Thanks to everyone here
for all their insight and ideas. I never stop learning here and the amount of play discussion, meta analysis, and deck/card evaluation has helped immensely.

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Postby magicdownunder » Tue May 27, 2014 7:15 am

@Wipe Out: Solid win mate :smileup:

I like Chandra, Pyromancer in MUs where its a battle of attrition (Bx Devotion, Mirror and Control) or against X/1.deck (Small aggro and Ux Devotion) in those MUs you have cards which to be rather lack luster making her an excellent pick.

- - - - - - - -

@ALl: Vs Bg Devotion what is better Chandra, Pyromancer or Assemble the Legions? The Avg. Bg deck only runs 2x Charms (which we hope they use on YP$ or Chains), while they ALL run 4x HDF (which we assuming they board out).
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