Open Site Blathering (formerly Advice from iridium ITT)

[Kaitscralt]

That last paragraph is a load of it Azrael. It's pretty low of you to put it the way you just did. I thought this thread was about Boubs? If not, I'm not done here.

I've made it plain from the start that I thought the "rabid dog" approach was a huge mistake, although an understandable one. You didn't start the fight - but the way you handled the persecution is what has led to alienating the moderate forces on staff who would have eventually counter-balanced the opposition and come out on top, just as they did before.

Anyone remember when Scumbag laid into Sene in the pegging chamber? Up until that point, Sene was going to the mat to fight the decision for the gutter. But when the gutter turned around and planted a knife in his back, that tune changed pretty quick. At this point, you've systematically done the same thing to people who would otherwise have been willing to back you
and have a meaningful dialogue.

So yes, harsh words, but the gutter has made and is continuing to make some very dumb, very emotional moves.

Sure, this is about Boubs. And he's keeping an open mind. But he's listening to both the staff and the gutter to get his information. So if you want to convince him - you're probably going to need the iridium to sit down at the table and soften their position.

Oh right, we stabbed him in the back. Great point Azrael

And then Ive systematically stabbed people in the back.

What a crock dude.

When's the last time any of you guys has had an open mind about the admin team?

Viper and Rian dropped out of the picture not long after the gutter-debacle. Those were the major forces behind that decision. None of the people who are there now, would have supported the closure.

Why do you think they're supporting it now?

Are you fucking kidding me Az? Weve attempted to have an open mind everytime there is a new admin. We had an open mind with mikeyg, wprked pretty well. We had an open mind with Yukora, worked fucking great. An open mind with you, was perfect. We continued to have an open mond with every admin up until ER's promotion, Ill give ypu that one. But the rest? We didnt just jump them like a pack of dogs, what the fuck are you smoking? With each single one of them it wasnt until we met back alley mutterings,
double speak, politics, lies, and cover ups, as well as a refusal to do anything other than blow smoke up our asseses in discussions why they stalled us for who knows what reason.

The fact that you just decided that were in our situation for failure to give new admins a chance is fucking baffling Az. Are you so caught up in being this large, looming, omnipresent fix all political advisor that you lost site of how lng weve been tryong to have discussins (lol peggimg chamber) and how many times WE were given the run around?

Im not championing our innocence, but youre full of shit with that last comment, and I'm calling you out for that one. Da fuck man.

Yeah, you've been trying to reach out and have discussions for a long time. But as a group, you've also been repeatedly clashing with the staff, and trashing the people who are trying to help you:

I really have no thoughts anymore. I tried and from what I can tell I am being called a
liar and incompetent I suspect part of the reason I didn't hear back from Hannes was because of the sale, but I still don't know. And now that we have an active owner it's really up to them.

I would still like to see the posts sent over to ( N_S ) and have the Salvation Gutter archived away and replaced with a link to MTGC. Based on the misinformation I am seeing on the other site though, I am done making any effort on this. You guys are on your own.

You can't attack the Senes and the Galspanics on staff who are most sympathetic to you, the ones who are counter-balancing the anti-gutter lobbyists, and expect those same people to keep on fighting for you. It's just not realistic, Kpaca.

The gutter has alienated the people on staff who would have been its allies. Those people haven't been much good to the gutter throughout all this, they've been counter-balanced by lower staff, but I don't think the balance of power really shifted until Gals took over. But by this point,
the gutter has burned so many bridges that it really won't matter unless there's a major change in approach.

The Pegging Chamber was the time when what you wanted was happening. Dude, it was months. The staff passed the torch for literal months and we stayed cordial. We didn't flame Nai about not saying a word despite being our liasion. The Pegging Chamber was our Magnum Opus for fixing the problems so much so that we even carried on negotiations with uninvolved dinosaurs like Senori when it was clear the administrators had abandoned us. I can't believe you can blame both sides.

I expressed real feelings of betrayal before my banning because of what happened with the GPC and the staff laughed at me because Madding the Troll cannot feel slighted or disillusioned in their universe. And it has nothing to do with Curse. They just weren't interested in fixing things, and I know that because we had ML access and the conversation was stagnant there as well. We did our part and we did it
respectfully and we tried to keep the ball rolling up until kpaca got banned.

I'm sorry Azrael, I know you like them, but they're on Salvation every day and they blatantly ignored us during months (remember, literal months, check the dates) of peaceful, productive, respectful one-sided negotiations.

[Kaitscralt]

Yes I am a broken record but stop telling me to like people that I don't like.

[Thrillho]

To be fair, it's very difficult to have an encyclopedic knowledge of all of the ins and outs of this whole event. I've been deep on this for as long as you have and didn't even know that was a thing.

re: JJ, the CoC and aggravation aren't *real* things in this. I get that the CoC is a "air quotes big deal close air quotes" and that it is bad and feels bad to be frustrated, but you have to put base emotions aside if you want to stay on point.

I think the former issue you have -- re: another communication thing, most of the discussion happened away from the people directly involved in it -- are worth noting, but going back to we are mad we're frustrated feelings so many of them is, at many levels, what turned the staff off to us and "burned bridges." We can't just keep coming back to that without acknowledging that we collectively got very hot headed and taxed their end as a result (rabid dog analogy,
we started barking and growling and the staff probably doesn't know how to put their hands in the way of this barking growling dog because they may get bit by it).

[imopen2]

I agree with some parts of what you are saying, Az. I think at times we have trashed people unnecessarily and to our disadvantage.

I also think we have been wronged in many ways. The bannings that took place were almost entirely injustified, and the fact that they have not been overturned simply due to the emotions of the staff, means to me that the staff is not suited for their positions.

I also see no reason why the SQL dumps should not be given as per Scumbag's instructions as that would greatly help in healing the damage done.

On a personal level, I am not banned on mtgs and am perfectly happy in this new home. I was a part of the gutter back in 2005 and I like history so I'd appreciate the SQL dumps. I also like justice to be served so I think kpaca, kijin, madding, yanni, etc to be unbanned but

[imopen2]

Unjustified is become injustified?

[Yannaria]

tbf I don't see how the pegging chamber discussions could be described as us trying to fuck with the staff. While Nai and Gals may appear to be voices of reason among the antigutter think tank that is the majority of the iridium, I have a had time believing it given Gals two faced approach to have an open dialogue with us, be it here or on sally.
the gutter was willing to change and make the concessions that the staff wanted, and they dragged out the discussion for months until the final explosion which lead to the creation of MTGC. We've been more than willing to cooporate with the staff, and they've either stonewalled us, lied, or double spoke their way around the issue.

we just want a few simple things, to have our established member accounts unbanned from sally and the gutter SQL dumps. the break is then clean and we can move on as independent sites. I don't see why we need to make concessions.
edit: we played a
gentlemen's game. we were reasonable with the staff as long as they wouldn't fuck us over, and they ended up fucking us over.

edit2: I mean with this new owner and wave of what appears to be someone who is willing to be reasonable, Boub is willing to look into the bans, and we can discuss them here or where he would find needed.

[ExarionUniverse1]

pm to Curse admin I sent just now:

Hey, Boubouille , here is my email : Bargior@gmail.com so we can coordinate our efforts.


list :

N_S

Madding ( Kaitscralt here)

Yanni

i will add more as I learn solid details , but since ER was the one banning them mostly , I ask for him not be on appeals committee as he may be biased. I suggest the users Belgarth and Harkius to be on the board as being fair.

also you can use the thread here or my website as a place to summit to resolve this issue.


With respect ,
Onar Bargior

Onar I am really quite baffled by this post. I know you're trying to help but your list is missing names and your Harkius recommendation makes no sense.

I pointed out that more names will be added , and my Harkius suggestion is because he has a good reputation with the majority of the sides involved.

Now , as in adding more names , please pm me the reasons you guys were banned and all truthful evidence on who banned you , why, what you guys did afterward, and etc.

Kijin and Kpaca: You guys disapprove of my efforts , thanks for letting me know, but I will not stop my efforts. If you guys have any other suggestions / ways of solving the issue please bring it forward.

Scumbag : I really wish your assistance in this matter as well..


All I see so far is interfighting and accusations..

Sincerely, Onar

[Kaitscralt]

Harkius I like you more when you're advocating shit eating. Sometimes lack of a filter makes a world of a difference.

[Thrillho]

Onar, if that's what you see, you're not really reading (though I will agree with you there's been a lot of in-fighting in the past page or so).

My disagreement with your methods is that we have a conversation space that is open and public here. So much of the problem we've -- on both sides -- had collectively was talk going on in "private spaces" and outside of the public domain where trust issues could breed and fester. The numerous summits, lounge-based discussions, and PM-only conversations delayed real contact between involved parties while making any dialog that was occurring seem insidious rather than helpful (it certainly strained patience, as evidenced by numerous commentators in this thread, if nothing else). Advocating for more of that and to fragment the dialog further by moving it between spaces and public and private settings is, bluntly, a clusterfuck of a suggestion. I don't disapprove of you or
fault you for trying to be helpful, I'm just trying to give you greater context to a situation you don't appear to have a complete grasp of.

That and if you think Harkius is trusted by most on both sides you are either incredibly out of touch or a brilliant troll. (no offense meant to Harkius who's been swell as far as being a guy on this forum is concerned)

[Col. Khaddafi]

Harkius, I think most of the banned members have no particular drive in being unbanned in MTGS other that having wrongs done right as a matter of principle. Like my suspension appeal on Nai's helpdesk (which occurred post-facto), I am merely looking at having the staff understand why their actions were unbecoming of their Duty and having them recognise the morally wrong implications of what they did and the associated lack of professionalism. Even if I were to be unbanned in MTGS (lol like if that were to happen) I'm looking at getting this community lifted from the ground here, because here I have the power to make sure that no one will ever be harassed or persecuted simply for being part of a group/clique.

The fact that I have no particular investment in other outcomes than simply acknowledging that the actions taken were immoral allows me the luxury of being a tad more intransigent. I'm not planning to go all Kissinger
like Az and I will call a horse's color by its name.

Believe me, while this situation may need people like Az for making some more colorful points of view heard, it needs also people like myself and kpaca to put things into perspective.

Like for the truth and reconciliation talks which took place in South-Africa in the aftermath of the Apartheid regime, and while ultimately the iridium could be granted amnesty as a reconciliation gesture, it is still necessary to have people which where subject to gross violations (like the big list of banned people) to be able to confront their perpetrators (the portion of iridium which is morally corrupt) before proceeding to the phase of amnesty and peaceful coexistence (albeit in two different sites).

[ExarionUniverse1]

Onar, if that's what you see, you're not really reading (though I will agree with you there's been a lot of in-fighting in the past page or so).

My disagreement with your methods is that we have a conversation space that is open and public here. So much of the problem we've -- on both sides -- had collectively was talk going on in "private spaces" and outside of the public domain where trust issues could breed and fester. The numerous summits, lounge-based discussions, and PM-only conversations delayed real contact between involved parties while making any dialog that was occurring seem insidious rather than helpful (it certainly strained patience, as evidenced by numerous commentators in this thread, if nothing else). Advocating for more of
that and to fragment the dialog further by moving it between spaces and public and private settings is, bluntly, a clusterfuck of a suggestion. I don't disapprove of you or fault you for trying to be helpful, I'm just trying to give you greater context to a situation you don't appear to have a complete grasp of.

That and if you think Harkius is trusted by most on both sides you are either incredibly out of touch or a brilliant troll. (no offense meant to Harkius who's been swell as far as being a guy on this forum is concerned)

Then who do you think is fair and honest enough to be on the appeals committee?

[Azrael]

The entire staff made very serious mistakes, including Sene. I remember as well as you guys, I was there, and I was doing what I could. I tend to blame the pressure that Sene was under the time from the rest of the staff, more than I blame Sene personally, but he did share responsibility for what happened under his watch, and responsibility for adopting the standpoint of those he worked with.

But the tone that the gutter took in response - from understandably running out of patience with all the mistakes and persecution that was going on - it burned bridges that could have been used over the long-term to restore what was lost.

Maybe I'm asking more than you were humanly possible of giving at the time. You said so, at the time. But now we're months away from the start of all this. I think it's time to start rebuilding those connections, not severing them.

[FaheyUSMC]

The entire staff made very serious mistakes, including Sene. I remember as well as you guys, I was there, and I was doing what I could.

But the tone that the gutter took this time - from understandably running out of patience with all the mistakes and persecution that was going on - it burned bridges that could have been used over the long-term to restore what was lost.

And those same Gutter members want to throw a tantrum and get everything "righted" when they acted like petulant children. Those bridges were burned. Aside from Az and G_R, I don't think any member of the Gutter could be perfectly objective and be willing to take the lumps that come with compromise. Tell me, would you be willing to put
your ass on the line to right this wrong, having seen how they react to "bad news"? This thread is a perfect example of what the staff will point to to counter anything said by your side as to why it's wrong.

Curse is a corporation. All that matters in that regard is the "bottom line". if you think they don't see the very real threat posed by some group of socially-inept neckbeards who get butthurt at the smallest perceived slight, I don't know what to tell you.

I'm not saying the staff have been saints. I'm one of the loudest people when they fuck up, because it's apparently the only way to get them to listen. But even then, I will praise them when they do right, and I am probably one of the most objective people around. I'd like to think that aside from ER, I have a good working relationship with the remaining Admins.

[Kaitscralt]

There will be no months away, there will be no committees and there will be no summits. This discussion was about Boub learning how individual members were wrongly banned and taking each case to his people to see what he could do. It's not about the Gutter. Like the Colonel said, some of us just want to see justice done, or in this case, injustice undone. All of this dumb forum drama must end. We're here now and were building a community. Let's get the new domain up. If Boubs can help us as banned individuals, great. If not, whatever.

[Col. Khaddafi]

I mean, I'm not even bothering appealing my ban, we are at post 378, and not once did we have an iridium member come here and say something like "allright, I don't think that any of you guys is getting unbanned, but I think we dropped the ball on #1, #2, #3, etc... and in retrospect we should have done things differently. FWIW you have hereby our official apologies"

Like when Sene registered here, I expressedly asked him (in what I think was a sufficiently civil tone) if he would have handled anything differently in this whole debacle should he have the chance to step back in time.

Let's approach this from another angle.

Sene: lets imagine you guys could go back in time. Lets also assume that no matter what
you could do, information about the sale would inevitably leak to the public. To ease up things, lets get my case out of the way: The internet Satan is still banned at the beginning of this ordeal.

With this scenario at hand, do you think the iridium could have done something differently? anything?

I got no answer.

The worse thing about this is seeing that all the staff who made terrible things being so high on whatever they are high on that they have no token capability of admitting a single mistake. This is what makes unfit staff members: not the fact that they make mistakes but the illusion/delusion that they are infallible, and that if things took a wrong turn, then it must obviously be someone else's fault

[Sene]

I'm more than happy to try to talk about everything that has happened for the past six months or so re: MTGS & the Gutter, but I think that right now, it should be you guys offering your point of view to Boubouille.

If you're all happy with me interfering (including Boubouille), then I don't mind. But I want to know that first.

[Thrillho]

I'm more than happy to try to talk about everything that has happened for the past six months or so re: MTGS & the Gutter, but I think that right now, it should be you guys offering your point of view to Boubouille.

If you're all happy with me interfering (including Boubouille), then I don't mind. But I want to know that first.

I agree with you and thank you for this post.

[Col. Khaddafi]

Sene I would be amicable to having you discuss the past issues and how to make a critical assessment of them.

Obviously, since this should be a two-way street, I'm more than available for potentially making any self-criticism on any point you feel my attitude might have been less than stellar regarding these past events.

[Mogadishu Jones]

I'm more than happy to try to talk about everything that has happened for the past six months or so re: MTGS & the Gutter, but I think that right now, it should be you guys offering your point of view to Boubouille.

If you're all happy with me interfering (including Boubouille), then I don't mind. But I want to know that first.

I agree, this should really be us talking with boubou, hence me trying to cut down white noise.

Thanks.

[Azrael]

The worse thing about this is seeing that all the staff who made terrible things being so high on whatever they are high on that they have no token capability of admitting a single mistake. This is what makes unfit staff members: not the fact that they make mistakes but the illusion/delusion that they are infallible, and that if things took a wrong turn, then it must obviously be someone else's fault

Granted. But it takes a very uncommon person to admit fault while under fire.

[( G_R )]

More like a mythic rare person.

[( G_R )]

But who's under fire?

[Col. Khaddafi]

The worse thing about this is seeing that all the staff who made terrible things being so high on whatever they are high on that they have no token capability of admitting a single mistake. This is what makes unfit staff members: not the fact that they make mistakes but the illusion/delusion that they are infallible, and that if things took a wrong turn, then it must obviously be someone else's fault

Granted. But it takes a very uncommon person to admit fault while under
fire.

Yeah well, maybe we need to have people start behaving uncommonly.

[Second Harkius]

But who's under fire?

This smiley

[Pendulum]

That's a chair, not fire.

[Second Harkius]

He's taking cover because he's come under fire duh

[Mogadishu Jones]

There will be no months away, there will be no committees and there will be no summits. This discussion was about Boub learning how individual members were wrongly banned and taking each case to his people to see what he could do. It's not about the Gutter. Like the Colonel said, some of us just want to see justice done, or in this case, injustice undone. All of this dumb forum drama must end. We're here now and were building a community. Let's get the new domain up. If Boubs can help us as banned individuals, great. If not, whatever.

Thats a bingo.

[Mogadishu Jones]

And i actually do want to be unbanned so i may play mafia, not to see injustice undone. I dont want them to admit theyre wrong, they wont. I want them to say "it was a cluterfuck and was over, and you didnt actually break the rules so you shouldnt be banned". Then ill play mafia and otherwise be here and it will all be tires all around.

Thats what I want.

[Boubouille]

Warning: Personal opinion ahead, no promise or anything, those are just my thoughts and I'm still bouncing ideas left and right with people.

Hai!

Daily update time. I got a big ass spreadsheet with most of the people involved in the drama, reasons of bans, etc, and I'm going through it whenever I have free time. I don't agree with how some of the things went down, and I'm pretty sure we can find a compromise pretty easily if everyone involved is willing to make an effort (both on the admin team side, and on your side).

Honestly right now we have two problems. The first one is that the whole situation has been going on forever, and it's now a pretty giant drama that no one can fully understand without referring to a bunch of notes and "okay what the hell happened back then?". The second one is that based on how things went down before, people got mad and said or did slightly
stupid things but I don't think anything was really bad.

In a nutshell on my side:

• I will need a few more days to get the opinion from the entire mod team before I do anything, I've been working mostly on admin level for now but I won't move without getting the feeling from the entire mod team on the situation.
• I will probably offer a few changes on how rules work, and see what people think about it.

I honestly think that it would be fine to have most people come back as long as we're clear on a few things:

• No more alt/gimmick account. (I know this is a grey area, I just want it written down somewhere for now)
• No more account sharing.
• We all somewhat figure out what the hell went wrong, agree on it, and decide we're done with it. If people are coming back just to be all hostile and stuff, it obviously won't work.[/*
  3b3btoxd]

As an "outsider", I do think there's something to be fixed when people with a couple thousand posts or people who were heavily involved in the site administration end up having to leave just because of giant disagreements that aren't really that bad when you look into them.

As for the Gutter, I already said I don't agree with the principle but I'm also not part of the community in the first place. I'm not opposed to keeping it open because it's ... "historically relevant" to the forums but we'll probably have to agree slightly on what is okay and not okay. Random forum to fuck around in a small group is fine as long as nothing really illegal or terrible happens. I'd still like to do it in two phases though, reintegrating people to the community would be the first step and we can talk about the Gutter a little further down the road. I'm fine keeping this forum as a point of contact, or even giving my IM details to a couple of people to have a
real discussion about it.

[Kaitscralt]

That all sounds great. Lets hammer out the details after you talk to whoever you need to talk to over there. I don't have any gimmick accounts so I'm set to go with your suggestions (aside from carecrow, which I needed when I was mod, but have never used and don't need).

Thanks for your help. I understand you're making no promises.

[Thrillho]

this is also a personal opinion thing, but as far as the gutter is concerned as a private hang-out space for users of the Gutter subforum, we have a private space within this forum, so those -- personally and possibly also the rest of the former MTGS Gutter members here -- are past concerns about retrieving the Gutter -- both as a place to post and SQL dumps if there's a litigious issue at hand or whatever.

As for gimmicks, this will likely vary from user to user, but any gimmicks I owned that I still have access to (as in that I remember the password to, not in that I've handed it over to someone else who now has given it a mind of its own) are fair game for removal. I've only lost the time it took to make a gif of my Hard Gay avatar if you remove the account.

Thanks for looking into stuff and for keeping us in the loop, Boub. I personally appreciate and I'm sure I can speak for many others to say that even as a token
gesture you taking time to talk to us means a lot.

[( G_R )]

What do you mean exactly by no gimmicks? I made a gimmick just yesterday, because I thought it would be nice to have an official account representing us in your site, since MTG Community was banned "for being ( N_S )". My other gimmick is known to the mods. I don't like to out it but I don't make significant efforts to keep it hidden either. Either way I don't care much for those accounts if you decide that creating gimmick accounts is going to be against your site's rules, or TOS.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Warning: Personal opinion ahead, no promise or anything, those are just my thoughts and I'm still bouncing ideas left and right with people.

Hai!

Daily update time. I got a big ass spreadsheet with most of the people involved in the drama, reasons of bans, etc, and I'm going through it whenever I have free time. I don't agree with how some of the things went down, and I'm pretty sure we can find a compromise pretty easily if everyone involved is willing to make an effort (both on the admin team side, and on your side).

Honestly right now we have two problems. The first one is that the whole situation has been going on forever, and it's now a pretty giant drama that no one can fully understand without referring to a bunch
of notes and "okay what the hell happened back then?". The second one is that based on how things went down before, people got mad and said or did slightly stupid things but I don't think anything was really bad.

In a nutshell on my side:

• I will need a few more days to get the opinion from the entire mod team before I do anything, I've been working mostly on admin level for now but I won't move without getting the feeling from the entire mod team on the situation.
• I will probably offer a few changes on how rules work, and see what people think about it.

I honestly think that it would be fine to have most people come back as long as we're clear on a few things:

• No more alt/gimmick account. (I know this is a grey area, I just want it written down somewhere for now)
• No more account sharing.
• We all somewhat figure
  out what the hell went wrong, agree on it, and decide we're done with it. If people are coming back just to be all hostile and stuff, it obviously won't work.

As an "outsider", I do think there's something to be fixed when people with a couple thousand posts or people who were heavily involved in the site administration end up having to leave just because of giant disagreements that aren't really that bad when you look into them.

As for the Gutter, I already said I don't agree with the principle but I'm also not part of the community in the first place. I'm not opposed to keeping it open because it's ... "historically relevant" to the forums but we'll probably have to agree slightly on what is okay and not okay. Random forum to fuck around in a small group is fine as long as nothing really illegal or terrible happens. I'd still like to do it in two phases though, reintegrating people to the community would be the first step and we can talk
about the Gutter a little further down the road. I'm fine keeping this forum as a point of contact, or even giving my IM details to a couple of people to have a real discussion about it.

I find everything in this post well within reason and I cant thank you enough for what must seem like somewhat of a time waster for you. Aso propsmon the effort I'm sure that spreadhseet took.

As a former guttermod and an admin here, you may need to speak to me (as you alluded to some more personal level inquiries). If this is the case, shoot me a pm here and i can hook you up with some im information or whatnot.

[Sir Sapphire the 3rd]

Warning: Personal opinion ahead, no promise or anything, those are just my thoughts and I'm still bouncing ideas left and right with people.

Hai!

Daily update time. I got a big ass spreadsheet with most of the people involved in the drama, reasons of bans, etc, and I'm going through it whenever I have free time. I don't agree with how some of the things went down, and I'm pretty sure we can find a compromise pretty easily if everyone involved is willing to make an effort (both on the admin team side, and on your side).

Honestly right now we have two problems. The first one is that the whole situation has been going on forever, and it's now a pretty giant drama that no one can fully understand without referring to a bunch of
notes and "okay what the hell happened back then?". The second one is that based on how things went down before, people got mad and said or did slightly stupid things but I don't think anything was really bad.

In a nutshell on my side:

• I will need a few more days to get the opinion from the entire mod team before I do anything, I've been working mostly on admin level for now but I won't move without getting the feeling from the entire mod team on the situation.
• I will probably offer a few changes on how rules work, and see what people think about it.

I honestly think that it would be fine to have most people come back as long as we're clear on a few things:

• No more alt/gimmick account. (I know this is a grey area, I just want it written down somewhere for now)
• No more account sharing.
• We all somewhat figure out
  what the hell went wrong, agree on it, and decide we're done with it. If people are coming back just to be all hostile and stuff, it obviously won't work.

As an "outsider", I do think there's something to be fixed when people with a couple thousand posts or people who were heavily involved in the site administration end up having to leave just because of giant disagreements that aren't really that bad when you look into them.

As for the Gutter, I already said I don't agree with the principle but I'm also not part of the community in the first place. I'm not opposed to keeping it open because it's ... "historically relevant" to the forums but we'll probably have to agree slightly on what is okay and not okay. Random forum to fuck around in a small group is fine as long as nothing really illegal or terrible happens. I'd still like to do it in two phases though, reintegrating people to the community would be the first step and we can talk
about the Gutter a little further down the road. I'm fine keeping this forum as a point of contact, or even giving my IM details to a couple of people to have a real discussion about it.

This maybe has been the first time in months that there is actual progress.

[Col. Khaddafi]

• We all somewhat figure out what the hell went wrong, agree on it, and decide we're done with it. If people are coming back just to be all hostile and stuff, it obviously won't work.

• People were not causing any trouble at the time the shutdown of the gutter was announced
• People were not causing any trouble at the time they were banned (despite what cheap shots might have been thrown at banned members in the suspended/banned members thread )

Ergo I highly doubt that someone will start causing trouble just
after someone took the care to set things right and reverse illegitimate decisions.

[( G_R )]

• We all somewhat figure out what the hell went wrong, agree on it, and decide we're done with it. If people are coming back just to be all hostile and stuff, it obviously won't work.

• People were not causing any trouble at the time the shutdown of the gutter was announced
• People were not causing any trouble at the time they were banned (despite what cheap shots might have been thrown at banned members in the suspended/banned members thread )

Ergo I highly doubt that someone will start causing trouble just after someone took the care to set things right and reverse illegitimate decisions.

I even doubt that any of us will go directly into CI post-unban like kingcobweb did.

[Kaitscralt]

I can only speak for myself but as I said in my intro post for you I will not only not be hostile but I have no plans to interact with the staff beyond reporting posts I deem necessary.

[Yannaria]

I don't have an issue with the "no gimmicks" clause. I only ever created one gimmick, George W. Bush with the intent of Mafia, who has yet to be banned, but I forgot the password for that account and I haven't been able to reset it, so for all purposes, I have no access.
As for the "no account sharing" clause. I find this completely reasonable as well, as can easily be achieved by all parties involved stating that they have indeed changed their passwords.

Thanks for spending time on this Boub.

edit: if I am to be unbanned, I just want to be able to interact with my clanmates and play mafia with my internet friends again. I don't intend to go start ripping around saly like some sort of cowboy

[Pendulum]

I've seen people call you Bibi before, Boubouille, is this an alright shortening of your name? "Boub" seems so undignified.

[Mogadishu Jones]

Ive been going with boubou, like from Yogi the bear.