Fire and Ice Mafia - Game Over!

[Stardust]

Let's say enough people vote Void. Then let's say that he flips town. Then CM gets modkilled and flips town as well. Would you say a no-lynch is a bad idea in that case? Why yes, or why not?

Are you asking me whether I'd rather no-lynch than lynch someone I know is townie? Of course I would rather no-lynch. But would I rather no-lynch than lynch a townie who I think is scum? No, I'll lynch that townie. Narrowing our lynch options is extremely beneficial (especially in this game where the scum will start trying to shoot each other once enough townies have died).

Answer is the same for your "if CM flips scum" hypothetical. Scummy townies should be eliminated whenever possible (assuming you actually think they're scummy scum, of course)
.

[Stardust]

imopen, I'd like your thoughts on my Suga case, please.

[imopen2]

Maybe I'm missing something but I see no reason why we should vote no-lynch in ANY situation...we have no vig, guys...the mafia have 2 kills...the best case scenario or us would be the mafia target the same person and even then we are no better off than before. What am I missing?

[imopen2]

imopen, I'd like your thoughts on my Suga case, please.

I don't trust you

[Stardust]

imopen, I'd like your thoughts on my Suga case, please.

I don't trust you

So... Suga is town?

[imopen2]

But, it's not like I think you're far off the truth. Suga has been playing like scum, but also seemingly the same as he usually does when he gets mislynched so

I still want to lynch void

[imopen2]

imopen, I'd like your thoughts on my Suga case, please.

I don't trust you

So... Suga is town?

No I have him as null. If he ever posts again we'll see if that changes

[( G_R )]

Let's say enough people vote Void. Then let's say that he flips town. Then CM gets modkilled and flips town as well. Would you say a no-lynch is a bad idea in that case? Why yes, or why not?

Are you asking me whether I'd rather no-lynch than lynch someone I know is townie? Of course I would rather no-lynch. But would I rather no-lynch than lynch a townie who I think is scum? No, I'll lynch that townie. Narrowing our lynch options is extremely beneficial (especially in this game where the scum will start trying to shoot each other once enough townies have died).

Answer is the same for
your "if CM flips scum" hypothetical. Scummy townies should be eliminated whenever possible (assuming you actually think they're scummy scum, of course).

Agreed. I'm trying to evaluate our risk here, since we could be losing a maximum of 4 townies by toMorrow "morning" (a mislynch, a modkill and two night kills). Keeping in mind that we only found one body at the beginning of this day, I guess we could call it even with the modkill and not be troubled by all these arithmetics.

Thanks for helping me clear that up in my mind.

[( G_R )]

Here's hoping those scum teams wipe each other out at night.

[Stardust]

But, it's not like I think you're far off the truth. Suga has been playing like scum, but also seemingly the same as he usually does when he gets mislynched so

Here's a link to Suga's posts in his most recent town game, Theros Mafia: http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?t=2 ... roppinsuga

He claims on Jan 15. His lynch is finalized on Jan 18. He makes 26 posts in that time period.

So... In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?

[Wraith223]

Do you have any other read on DroppinSuga besides "he is not in my clique"?

Nice, thank you for the follow-up. I like that post and have reinstated you as confirmed town. Do I have a read? Yes, I do. My read is that DroppinSuga is scum.

Day 1 he hopped on basically any wagon that came by (Murphy, zemanjaski, freedom, imopen, zemanjaski, freedom), but I read him as town mostly because of the involvement and confidence that I thought he was showing. However, taken together, I think they show a self-consciousness in his reasoning for making those votes.

A bigger factor is his
inconsistencies. He goes from "lynch this man" to "wanting more discussion", then back to bloodthirsty less than 24 hours later. A while later he "hammers" and says that this day has gone on far too long. Didn't he just say he wanted discussion?

We start Day 2 with fishing which moves into screwing up
the game setup. Normally I'd call that slightly town leaning except that it felt to me like the posts leading up to that (where Suga hinted at being confirmed town somehow) were him setting up a fake-claim. There's no townie mindset there, making this the biggest tell against him.

He vote jumps a couple times, then ducks and covers once the votes shift to him. He hasn't made a real post in nearly a week now.

That makes sense but only when you view him as a "normal' player. Even with his normal non-mafia posts, he drops random crap or is scatter brained. He really could be scum as you have given a fine arguement for, but it is still hard to call as he is random or impatient. The reason I don't want to vote DroppinSuga is that he has voted for scum leads (my opinion of course). By the same reasoning of vote shifts, you could place Fate in the same pile with DroppinSuga. The both target the weakest links or bandwagon. DroppinSuga has claimed scum as Fate has. We
ask questions al the time and I get less from him than DroppinSuga. Don't read my discussion on Fate as a push for Fate vote, but your rational applies to him as well. In games I have played so far, I noticeed that Scum talks heaviliy, persuads players to vote the weakest members, and gets aggrissive to tone down challengers to their claims. DroppinSuga has not done any of that. Although Hamfactoral plays very similar to DroppinSuga, thus you could say they are inactive-passive scum types as opposed to active aggressive scum (imopen2 and Iso). The hardest to find are active positive scum which could be you, manders, and Rcwraspy (DTR mafia).
Thus I conclude that if you wanted to say DroppinSuga is scum by inactive-passive scum mindset; you could be correct. Ham being my only link to how DroppinSuga could be playing scum. I also think D.P. admires/looks up to Ham in his posts. Could be a style
mimic on Ham. Thoughts?

[Stardust]

Fate and Suga are not the same. Both jump on bandwagons (part of the reason I voted Fate earlier toDay), but Fate has not shown a scum mindset in any of his posting as far as I've seen. Suga has, both in his inconsistency and in his maybe-fake-claim attempt.

I have no thoughts about your mindset paragraph because you don't really say anything. Scum is scum. You're right that different people play as scum differently, but I don't see any point to what you just said.

[imopen2]

But, it's not like I think you're far off the truth. Suga has been playing like scum, but also seemingly the same as he usually does when he gets mislynched so

Here's a link to Suga's posts in his most recent town game, Theros Mafia: http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?t=2 ... roppinsuga

He claims on Jan 15. His lynch is finalized on Jan 18. He makes 26
posts in that time period.

So... In the quiet words of the Virgin Mary, come again?

I meant the seemingly random vote jumping, poorly explained reads, saying that the day is taking too long, folding at the first sign of a wagon against him. Etc.

Is that inaccurate? I'm not suga's mafia historian, that's just te impression I've gotten from the games I've played with him

[Wraith223]

I'm not bullying you, wraith. I'm asking you to please stop posting incorrect information about me in this game. It is called "mis-repping" and it has to stop. I am town, and if you are town, you need to put more effort into being CORRECT in your portrayal of the actions of others.

If you would like I can iso your posts and find all of the inaccuracies you have posted about me and other players ITT, but I would prefer you just stop doing it.

I knew thassa was scum. I was wrong about the 2 sub gods and Nylea had a scum read. When Nylea rolled town: i was shocked. You guys were terrible D-Bags that game and know it. You wanted to keep the reads at a minimum and let one power player do all the vote calling for everyone else. That is the
play to make if your scum, bravo. Issue is that you made personal you SOB. Coming back to me and making threats on my calls is fine. Go ahead and waste an epic amount of time. I don't care. Still learning and trying my best. Sorry on the bad claims I recognozed this game on you, but that is all you get from me. Tell 2- you come back with a sour olive branch and make a threat. Keep up the consistentcy!

[Stardust]

I meant the seemingly random vote jumping, poorly explained reads, saying that the day is taking too long, folding at the first sign of a wagon against him. Etc.

Is that inaccurate? I'm not suga's mafia historian, that's just te impression I've gotten from the games I've played with him

Mmm, yeah, he's not a big puller on the Day-side, that's true. That's why that's not a factor in my case against him.

Also, he's folded to wagons before, yeah, but not like this.

[imopen2]

I'm not saying you don't have some good points, but void is who I want to lynch today. If it comes down to it and suga is the only person people are willing to lynch I will reconsider but I'm not voting him right now.

Wraith: I'm not trying to threaten you. I'm sorry if my behavior makes you feel bullied, but your behavior makes me feel like you don't care about the truth, and that is a lot more relavent to this game than whether I am mean or not.

[imopen2]

The first paragraph is directed @Stardust

[rezombad]

@Stardust and Wraith:
Please explain to me why you both want to have 2 lynches/kills when the Town is already at a major disadvantage because of the two Scum teams.

Let me answer your question with another question: Should we no-lynch today?

I don't like this post, it doesn't feel right.

Why are you voting DroppinSuga anyway?

Because I don't want DroppinSuga on my team and have no better leads.

This is a bad reason and doesn't mesh with his post later.

How do figure there is a reasonable chance that Murphy is Scum? 7 Town to 4 Scum would indicate otherwise.

well, 6 other town and 4 scum right now is a 40% chance of cm being scum regardless of my reads. removing Wraith and Fate (my only solied townreads right now) increases this to 66%. If I were good at math I would add weights, but I like the odds of cm being scum and I like the fact that it takes away 2 nightkills from the mafia teams.

Do you have any other read on DroppinSuga besides "he is not in my clique"?

Nice, thank you for the follow-up. I like that post and have reinstated you as confirmed town. Do I have a read? Yes, I do. My read is that DroppinSuga is scum.

Day 1 he hopped on basically any wagon that came by (Murphy, zemanjaski, freedom, imopen, zemanjaski, freedom), but I read him as town mostly because of the involvement and confidence that I thought he was showing. However, taken together, I think they show a self-consciousness in his reasoning for making those votes.

A bigger factor is his inconsistencies. He goes from "lynch this man" to &
quot;wanting more discussion", then back to bloodthirsty less than 24 hours later. A while later he "hammers" and says that this day has gone on far too long. Didn't he just say he wanted discussion?

We start Day 2 with fishing which moves into screwing up the game setup. Normally I'd call that slightly town leaning except that it felt to me like the posts leading up to that (where Suga hinted at being confirmed
town somehow) were him setting up a fake-claim. There's no townie mindset there, making this the biggest tell against him.

He vote jumps a couple times, then ducks and covers once the votes shift to him. He hasn't made a real post in nearly a week now.

Why idn't you post this when Wraith asked you why you were voting for Suga, instead of dicking around.
Please post a t/s list.

Let's say enough people vote Void. Then let's say that he flips town. Then CM gets modkilled and flips town as well. Would you say a no-lynch is a bad idea in that case? Why yes, or why not?

Are you asking me whether I'd rather no-lynch than lynch someone I know is townie?
Of course I would rather no-lynch. But would I rather no-lynch than lynch a townie who I think is scum? No, I'll lynch that townie. Narrowing our lynch options is extremely beneficial (especially in this game where the scum will start trying to shoot each other once enough townies have died).

Answer is the same for your "if CM flips scum" hypothetical. Scummy townies should be eliminated whenever possible (assuming you actually think they're scummy scum, of course).

Please post a t/s list.

pedit: HOLY FUCK STOP POSTING SO I CAN POST, JESUS

[imopen2]

Good post

[Stardust]

I didn't post my case initially because I wanted Wraith to react to my (pretty scummy) response.



I will give you a town list. I may give you a scum list later, but at the moment would rather not taint reactions to my Suga case.

Town: Manders, Wraith, rezombad.

That is all.

[Wraith223]

Fate and Suga are not the same. Both jump on bandwagons (part of the reason I voted Fate earlier toDay), but Fate has not shown a scum mindset in any of his posting as far as I've seen. Suga has, both in his inconsistency and in his maybe-fake-claim attempt.

I have no thoughts about your mindset paragraph because you don't really say anything. Scum is scum. You're right that different people play as scum differently, but I don't see any point to what you just said.

Mindset means everything. You will look at a so called "town slip" mindset, but don't see what I am talking about?
Hmmmmmm
Now I am disturbed that you leading us astray with an easy "dumb guy" vote. As much as Imopen2 disgusts me, he is right that DroppinSuga is playing no different than in earlier games. He has voted for both possible factions. The only person I found odd he voted for was Zem. He voted Freedom, Imopen2, Fate, and you. Pretty much everyone I have issues or possible scum reads on.
I tried thinking DroppinSuga into scum role and he still does not fit. Inactive-passive town role, I can see that. Sorry, no vote here for DroppinSuga.

Your good reasons- vote hopping, bandwagoning joining, Lets talk>>bloodlust, impatient. Not bad but that's DroppinSuga. He is a definate later date vote in my opinion.
Bad reason- I don't want him on my team. If you would have just given the post explination of "good" reasons; I would have
given it more thought. The clique post>>>I find you town post>>>>your good reasons give me the creepy feeling I am being Courted by scum for a town vote.

[Stardust]

On second thought, I'll give you one scum read, free of charge: imopen2. I believe he is Suga's buddy.

[Stardust]

Mindset means everything. You will look at a so called "town slip" mindset, but don't see what I am talking about?
Hmmmmmm

Yes, mindset means everything. I agree. You were talking about different forms of scum mindset and I don't see the point. Did you have one other than to theorize that Suga idolizes hammy?

[rezombad]

I'll wait for the full list. You go ahead and 'get reactions' or whatever it is you're trying to do.

[Wraith223]

I'm not saying you don't have some good points, but void is who I want to lynch today. If it comes down to it and suga is the only person people are willing to lynch I will reconsider but I'm not voting him right now.

Wraith: I'm not trying to threaten you. I'm sorry if my behavior makes you feel bullied, but your behavior makes me feel like you don't care about the truth, and that is a lot more relavent to this game than whether I am mean or not.

I agree! The confirmable truth matters. Anything else is conjecture or speculation. You have a few positive points with me since Freedom rolled town and now questioning Stardust.
My gut is growning with Stardust right now. I was hoping he would see that DroppinSuga has not chaged as Ham did in
Theros game with Vote + Joke talking "Yolo". Could have been an Iso play, but I doubt it. DroppinSuga is not pushing any agenda but instead is testing waters, bandwagon voting, looking for content, and being stubborn. My read is still inactive-passive. Nothing has changed with him. Other players have stronger reads.

[zemanjaski]

Good post Rez.

Suga and imopen2 remain my main scum reads.

In my mind, town are: Rez, Manders, wraith, rcwraspy.

CM is a good call too. On re-read of his posts I think the points others made - that his slip was too contrived to be a real scum slip - is a fair one. So ill move him to my scum like too.

[Stardust]

What slip did CM make?

[imopen2]

Yup re: suga.

Hey stardust, put up or shut up. Where's your case on me? (I know you don't have one, stop fishing)

[Stardust]

Well that was interesting. How am I fishing?

I have no interest in lynching you today. Suga has to flip scum first. If he flips town, you'll be going back to my probably town pile.

[zemanjaski]

Slip is probably the wrong term. He was trying to get us to discuss Doc targets on Day 1.

[Stardust]

Slip is probably the wrong term. He was trying to get us to discuss Doc targets on Day 1.

Mmm, right. So discussing doc targets is "too contrived to be a real scum slip", therefore you'll move him to your scum pile? That logic doesn't follow.

[zemanjaski]

Yeah I did more analysis than that day 1, but yes, I think I missed up in dismissing the case against him then; hence reconsidering it now. I got too clever for myself; now I think he's a legitimate lynch.

[Wraith223]

Well that was interesting. How am I fishing?

I have no interest in lynching you today. Suga has to flip scum first. If he flips town, you'll be going back to my probably town pile.

What? Imopen2 has stronger scum reads on his own than Suga. How does Suga rolling town or scum assist Imopen2 leaning town or scum?

[zemanjaski]

Wait I misread your post Stardust and you misread mine.

On Day 1 I thought the slip couldn't be real (it was too obvious) so I thought it must be a trap or baiting.

Now reading back he never followed up or made use of it, so I think my initial read was wrong.

[Stardust]

Well that was interesting. How am I fishing?

I have no interest in lynching you today. Suga has to flip scum first. If he flips town, you'll be going back to my probably town pile.

What? Imopen2 has stronger scum reads on his own than Suga. How does Suga rolling town or scum assist Imopen2 leaning town or scum?

How does imopen having stronger scum reads make him town? Don't you think imopen is scum anyway? Oh, right, you're reading imopen as scum, fine.

Interactions between the two of them (or lack thereof) lead me to believe that
they are on the same team. If Suga flips scum, imopen is probably his buddy. This is based on imopen's reactions to Suga's wagon and Suga's interactions with imopen Day 1 (most noteably Suga's vote, unvote, vote and the posts surrounding that).

[imopen2]

Well that was interesting. How am I fishing?

I have no interest in lynching you today. Suga has to flip scum first. If he flips town, you'll be going back to my probably town pile.

Just felt like you were fishing for wagons, seeing which one would catch on.

[imopen2]

I think we need to focus, an we need some of the Lurkers to start posting.

[Stardust]

Wait I misread your post Stardust and you misread mine.

On Day 1 I thought the slip couldn't be real (it was too obvious) so I thought it must be a trap or baiting.

Now reading back he never followed up or made use of it, so I think my initial read was wrong.

Yeah, I pieced that together based on your latest post. Your first post was worded wrong.

Just felt like you were fishing for wagons, seeing which one would catch on.

Well that's a stretch! rezombad asked me for a T/S list, I gave him a scum read.

Overreaction to suspicion: Check.

[Wraith223]

Well that was interesting. How am I fishing?

I have no interest in lynching you today. Suga has to flip scum first. If he flips town, you'll be going back to my probably town pile.

What? Imopen2 has stronger scum reads on his own than Suga. How does Suga rolling town or scum assist Imopen2 leaning town or scum?

How does imopen having stronger scum reads make him town? Don't you think imopen is
scum anyway? Oh, right, you're reading imopen as scum, fine.

Interactions between the two of them (or lack thereof) lead me to believe that they are on the same team. If Suga flips scum, imopen is probably his buddy. This is based on imopen's reactions to Suga's wagon and Suga's interactions with imopen Day 1 (most noteably Suga's vote, unvote, vote and the posts surrounding that).

Interesting call, but Suga could be just bandwagoning any read that made sense to him?

[Stardust]

And then unvoting to buy time, then re-voting after zemanjaski attacks him? That's not bandwagoning - that's trying to avoid the bus.