[Primer] PyroRed

[stuffydollfan]

I just 5-0 a 40 man FNM last Friday using Valdariths latest PyroBlack build. I must admit looking at the list I thought that there was no way in hell this deck can ever hope to accomplish anything but to my surprise, it actually kicked some serious ass. With a deck that tops out at cmc of 3 how in the world can it possibly succeed?

Now I only have a sample size of 5 matches, but I feel that I have a decent idea of how the deck feels. This deck is not in for the long haul, but that’s ok because this is a deck that puts itself in a very good position to win fast. The creature list is perfect for this deck. Both 1 drops are strong and can get in a bunch of damage when dropped early enough. Though I prefer the Satyr for his ability to pump and trade up with bigger guys without the need for burn. Both 1 drops can also be used in combination with any burn spell to take down more bigger bodies.

Spike Jester aka Lightning
Bolt on a stick can run away with games all by himself. If its early game he will run over everything. And later game just clear him a path and watch him go! Young Pyromancer is a different beast himself. Making a 1/1 for every spell you play changes everything. Depending on the board state he will allow you to go many different routes.

There’s no better creature to have at the 3 drop than Chandra’s Phoenix. Dropped on the curve, he makes it so the opponent has 1 more threat to deal with. It can be overwhelming when its on the field with another creature.. And if they are able to kill it off you can easily bring it back!

The non creature spells I think Is what make the deck work so well. Pretty much every spell has great value for its mana cost. Dreadbore is never a dead card. Best use of Dread is when you take down an enemy creature so that yours can get in there for precious damage. Searing Blood is another all-star. The best value spell in standard in a long time. It has a surprising amount of
targets and can even be used to 2 for 1 to take down larger creatures without loosing too much momentum. Lightining Strike to kill a creature or to go to the face is legit as ever. Magma Jet is good most the time since it helps you set up. And finally there’s shock. It’s easily the most underwhelming spell in the deck. That being said there’s still plenty of targets for it.

My first match was against this noobs boros weenies or something. Very one sided both games towards my favor. The guy had no chance. 2-0.

Second match was against G/R/b monsters. I felt that he played bad since he didn’t block my spike jester with his mana dork. And whenever he did play something it just ate removal. Finally when he was able to stall my board, I was able to use my burn spells to go to the face. This matchup was even tipped further in my favor because of all the shock lands it played. 2-1.

Next I took down another G/R deck. It was very similar to my first match. Small creatures help me get some damage in then I
finish off with burn. My removal really shines in this matchup. 2-1.

Next off was against Mono Black. This was another easy match up. His pack rat at some searing blood and the demon got killed. The thing I was most afraid of was that -2/-2 sweeper which made me only commit 2 creatures max at a time. 2-0.

Though the creature I felt was most effective here was the phoenix.

Final match was against Grixis Control. He got me one game because I mana flooded. Even then it was close. 2-1

[Valdarith]

I don't have time to respond to all your posts, Fate, but suffice it to say that your responses confirm that we agree on very little.

There's no reason for you to be all bent because the list looks close to a list you haven't posted and I had little idea about. I don't recall any previous RB lists with YP that were posted in that thread but it's been awhile since it was even active. In fact I happen to recall that you two were on a black heavy list.

I think you're getting offended a little too easily.

[Link]

It seems you didn't really even read my posts Vala.... What we agree on is an entirely different matter. THoughtseize >> Devour flesh and all that (and I hope that people in this thread will decide for themselves and see the value of thoughtseize in a pyromancer deck).


We started off on the black heavy humans with necromancer tech. After that won GP Santiago it became a bit too meta and we switched over to PyroRakis.


And if you had even clicked the post I had quoted from you where you contradict yourself with your stance on Ash Zealot, you'd see that the list you were responding to was our Pyromancer list!

We're putting Dos Rakis on the backburner, possibly until the R/B scrylands come out to help consistency, also the dual colored
gods should make it more enticing.


Sticking to PyroRakis since we still like these colors.

The strongest cards from Dos Rakis port over:
-Spike Jester
-Exava
-Dreadbore/Doom Blade


What we lose:
-Mogis Marauder. With the Desecration demon meta and nightveil spectre, and hell even reckoner can't be swung into with our red creatures, he's lost a lot of stock. Was awesome against earlier mono red brews and G/W, but just isn't cutting it these days
-Lifebane Zombi: well we don't fold to blood baron anymore so it doesn't really matter that we lose him
-Tormented Hero: Firedrinker satyr is comparable to him and a fine replacement
-Rix Maadi Guildmage: have high hopes for this card still with what the future set brings


What we gain:
-Young pyromancer! With devotion brews having limited removal or 1-1 removal only, Young pyromancer has been insane at beating desecaration demon stone cold as well as overpowering Mono Blue.
-Better mana base: With only a slight black splash rather than
an even split, we gain more consistency in casting our cards
-Zeman's wisdom: we basically can port most of the wisdom and tech Zeman comes up with, and adapt it to our brew
-Dark Betrayal: ok we do't really gain this, but YP$+Dark betrayal just makes me giddy
-Chandra's Phoenix: Hey this bird is still pretty good, and better than marauder at the moment. Rakdos' Return returns phoenix for those who love value
-Mizzium Mortars: Just a better overalll late game plan than what dos rakis all in plan had, you can effectively control other decks if you hcan get to a point of 2-1 removal

here's where we're at currently:

[deck]PyroRakis[/deck]

SB isn't refined with a complete 75 in mind, but its a WIP

I mean its just silly to me, like I said I'm not "bent" so you're reading my tone all wrong. I just find it hard to comprehend your short term memory.... but given that you don't even remember your own stance on Ash Zealot in the list from 4 months ago I guess it shouldn't be too surprising that you don't remember us posting about the list during Theros standard?

[Link]

Nuwen got plenty of recognition for that deck. It was "Nuwen's list" when Theros just came out, still "Nuwen's list" to us after it did something at a GP, and I'll think of that deck whenever I see some red black low curve aggro deck with RTR and Theros cards. But I don't remember her list using Pyromancers and Phoenixes. Or maybe you're talking about a different deck than I have in mind.

I mean its the one that was more "innovative" in my opinion, since we threw it together literally the night before the first day of standard for Theros with no real other lists to base it off. So its definitely the one that should stick out in your mind.

Like I said I'm not really upset and hell maybe Vala even DID start
brewing PyroRakis before we did, I was literally just reacting to the fact that he said "wow look at this new list I think its legit!" when PyroRakis has been around for quite some time is all. I may have overstated that Nuwen created pyrorakis (we definitely drew up a list but using PyroRed as a shell it can hardly be seen as truly innovative), I want to emphasize simply that we have been working on improve PyroRakis for half a year now. Who created it is Zemanjanski, and all credit goes to him.


@Tyrael: Yes it needs guildgates, I just want to make it clear that the mana is still the weakest part of the deck, so don't get frustrated when that is the reason you lose games (KNOW that its the reason and mulligan appropriately. You should value "slow" hands that have both colors of mana. A double guildgate hand with 5 gas is actually very fine even if it seems slow as hell.)

As for a finisher? We haven't
tested it much this season. But I DO think Underworld Cerberus > SBD. Looking at G/R lists being the most popular, whta the fuck do they do about Underworld Cerberus?

I play Gruul, obviously, and in testing last season when Nuwen landed the big dog I basically had to scoop. The only thing you can do is race it, and if you sideboard into a more controlling plan and they bring out Cerberus... you can't beat it.

I'd try it as a 1-of maybe 2-of, but definitely try it you'll be impressed. It can even be house against full removal decks (mono black hands that don't have demon for instance, or you just keep sacrificing to it until you drop cerberus.) It can be painfully slow against U/W, so I wouldn't board in 2 there.

[Mr. Metronome]

I just played the most insane game with Val's list in a 2-man against Mono U.

I'll see if I can find the replay tomorrow, but the TL;DR of game 3 was that I stabilized at ONE LIFE, with him at 18, and got him down to 15 with a single YP token. He D-Sphere'd it, and then I shocked him to get a Chandra's Phoenix back. I clocked him for a while with the Phoenix, 1-for-1'ing every creature he played. He had an active Thassa for most of the rest of the game, and I won past a Nightveil Specter (Dark Betrayal) a Judge's Familiar to chump and buy time to make the Thassa scry better (Dreadbore... lol) and then finally a master for 3, which met a Searing Blood on a token to put him to 2 and allowed Phoenix to finish the job.

Deck is the nut.

[montu]

I gave Valdariths latest PyroBlack build a test run . . . only 5 matches . . . but it feels like it runs out of gas too easily. Doesn't seem to be enough reach compared to the Rw deck I've been playing. I DO like the removal, but there's not much to carry the momentum.

[montu]

I put in a couple of Toil//Trouble (replacing 2 Firedrinker), and the results were positive. Getting a couple extra cards later in the game was very beneficial.

[Valdarith]

You're missing the context though, Fate. Back then Ash Zealot was the superior card. Now that GR is a tier one deck and UW is seeing more play, Jester is the better option.

The list you posted had 12 spells. Mine has 19. It also curves our at three and has 21 land. That's a huge difference already.

You need to be careful with your tone. You say you aren't upset but your words toward me say otherwise.

[Helios]

Seriously ya'll, chill the fuck out. If you're going to have petty arguments about each other's "tone" (on the internet, no less), do it elsewhere.

[Valdarith]

It's no big deal to me honestly. It wasn't my intention to upset you, Fate. I'm not always able to go back and click through pages of threads, especially when I'm on my phone in the hospital! I only wanted to point tone out because I've been called out for similar things before and I know it can rub people the wrong way.

[Alex]

I don't have time to respond to all your posts, Fate, but suffice it to say that your responses confirm that we agree on very little.

There's no reason for you to be all bent because the list looks close to a list you haven't posted and I had little idea about.

Putting those two things together as a defense is based in logical fallacy. Just because you didn't know it was there doesn't mean it hasn't been around. I personally remember seeing it a few times in the deckstorming thread, which I know you read, so you might have glanced over it and not processed the information, but there's little doubt that you at least knew it existed.

I'm not taking sides here, but what I will say is this: I know that I have personally posted about the
list multiple times in other places. I played it a lot back when Mogis's Marauder was still playable. I still don't think the deck is good right now, but it would be really good if UW and Esper started seeing play again and I think it's a useful thing to have laying around for if/when that happens.

[Tyrael]

I put in a couple of Toil//Trouble (replacing 2 Firedrinker), and the results were positive. Getting a couple extra cards later in the game was very beneficial.

I replaced a few cards MB to fit in three Exava (was thinking either her or Toil // Trouble) and holy moly she is the bomb in this deck

exactly what I needed

[Valdarith]

I still don't understand. Why is my list being compared to a black heavy list running Mogis's Marauder? The two decks are very different.

Basically I feel like I'm being accused of stealing a list and calling it my own despite their being significant differences between the lists that I've seen. It's possible that I've missed a list though. Could you show me a list comparable to mine so I could learn what determinations were made throughout the building process? I recall your list specifically Alex that played Stormbreath Dragon and 23 lands that was posted earlier in this thread. Were you just bringing up Marauder being playable but not being in your list?

[Valdarith]

If we're all arriving at similar lists then at least we know we're all going in the right direction! I like when that happens.

[Jack]

If you're unaware that you got the idea from somebody else, then you didn't steal it.

[Tyrael]

Unless its copyrighted

then you're screwed

[Valdarith]

As long as no one calls me Travis Woo I'll be okay.

[zemanjaski]

[Alex]

I still don't understand. Why is my list being compared to a black heavy list running Mogis's Marauder? The two decks are very different.

Basically I feel like I'm being accused of stealing a list and calling it my own despite their being significant differences between the lists that I've seen. It's possible that I've missed a list though. Could you show me a list comparable to mine so I could learn what determinations were made throughout the building process? I recall your list specifically Alex that played Stormbreath Dragon and 23 lands that was posted earlier in this thread. Were you just bringing up Marauder being playable but not being in your list?

The deck is basically eight cards away from being the same thing. The cards that arent in your list that are in the old lists are Mogis's Marauder and Tormented Hero.

[Alex]

We're going to test your deck tomorrow against Jund and Mono Black, but I don't have high hopes for either matchup. Specifically Jund since Caryatid and Courser are huge speed bumps.

[Valdarith]

Let me know how it goes. I imagine this deck is much worse on the draw against Jund than on the play. The number of shocks they run ought to help your cause though.

[Tyrael]

I was testing Pyroblack vs my friend's Jund Aggro deck last night and it was astounding how often he got himself killed with his own mana base

it was quite hilarious actually

[deck] Pyroblack test[/deck]

[Mr. Metronome]

Something I've come to realize with more play testing is that I somewhat miss the top end that my old PyroWhite list had, with 2 Stormbreaths and 2 Chandra (and at one point the 3rd Stormbreath in the side)


any thoughts on a list that can go a little bigger? It makes you slightly worse vs UW/Mono Black but a lot better vs other small aggro decks, since you get to turn your removal into an actual advantage by casting hard to beat spells rather than just slowly whittling them down.

[Toddington]

Something I've come to realize with more play testing is that I somewhat miss the top end that my old PyroWhite list had, with 2 Stormbreaths and 2 Chandra (and at one point the 3rd Stormbreath in the side)


any thoughts on a list that can go a little bigger? It makes you slightly worse vs UW/Mono Black but a lot better vs other small aggro decks, since you get to turn your removal into an actual advantage by casting hard to beat spells rather than just slowly whittling them down.

Like this?

---

[deck]Black Pyro-Dragons[/deck]

Seems like Black Pyro-Dragons should be better than White, because the terror (Dreadbore) is a sorcery rather than an enchantment (Chained to the Rocks). Relevant YP$ synergy? I haven't looked at a Pyro-Dragons list for a while, but it should be an easy port right?

[Valdarith]

Something I've come to realize with more play testing is that I somewhat miss the top end that my old PyroWhite list had, with 2 Stormbreaths and 2 Chandra (and at one point the 3rd Stormbreath in the side)


any thoughts on a list that can go a little bigger? It makes you slightly worse vs UW/Mono Black but a lot better vs other small aggro decks, since you get to turn your removal into an actual advantage by casting hard to beat spells rather than just slowly whittling them down.

I think Alex's list from a couple pages back is a good start.

[Alex]

My current, exact 75 for anybody interested.

[deck]Walter Black[/deck]

There's another IQ in a few weeks, I plan to play the deck again at it.

[Tyrael]

My current, exact 75 for anybody interested.

[deck]Walter Black[/deck]

There's another IQ in a few weeks, I plan to play the deck again at it.

According to Frank Karsten's article on mana bases, you'll have a black mana source on average by turn eight with only
8 black sources (make that turn 7 since you're running 4 scrylands). Remember, people were also putting in extra guildgates into the Walter White deck.

I think you might be right about including Chandra though.

[Link]

If you're unaware that you got the idea from somebody else, then you didn't steal it.

this is EXACTLY what I'm saying.


I guess I've never had the most respectful tone and that's something nuwen gets on my case about all the time.... but I TRY to bold my point so the main message gets across

this is just a misunderstanding Val. There was no accusation of stealing, there was no anger, there was simply me reminding you and the world at large that the idea of your list has been around since before Born of the gods. That is it. That is ALL.


Please let's not spiral this into something that it shouldn't be. Do we need to shake hands or something? Like I said I'm sure you just forgot it was around, there's NO ill
feelings here...

[Aodh]

My current, exact 75 for anybody interested.

[deck]Walter Black[/deck]

There's another IQ in a few weeks, I plan to play the deck again at it.[/quote:
3j1zfps3]

According to Frank Karsten's article on mana bases, you'll have a black mana source on average by turn eight with only 8 black sources (make that turn 7 since you're running 4 scrylands). Remember, people were also putting in extra guildgates into the Walter White deck.

I think you might be right about including Chandra though.

Not on average. 90% of the time that will happen. On average, the first black land will be 7.5 cards into the deck.

[Tyrael]

My current, exact 75 for anybody interested.

[deck]Walter Black[/deck]

There's another IQ in a few weeks, I plan to play the deck again at it.

According to Frank Karsten's article on mana bases, you'll have a black mana source on average by turn eight with only 8 black sources (make that turn 7 since you're running 4 scrylands). Remember, people were also putting in extra guildgates into the Walter White deck.

I think you might be right about including Chandra though.

Not on average. 90% of the time that will happen. On average, the first black land will be 7.5 cards into the deck.

Aodh, you're a real redbro man

Anyway, I will be running guildgates and basic lands instead of vaults since I don't like being color screwed all the time (I have awful luck)

[Alex]

The mana isn't bad enough that I would ever want to play a single guildgate. Turn one plays are very important if you have them.

[montu]

R/B Aggro in today's SSG column:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... -Game.html

[Tyrael]

We have a rakdos aggro thread for that though

@ Alex I'm running a single guildgate for mana fixing and I've yet to have any problems with my mana. I am running 3 Exava and 2 Flame-Wreathed Phoenixes right now as that seemed the correct thing to do vs my meta which is rampant with aggro. No Satyrs MB.

[Valdarith]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6848&d=239358

This 4-0d a daily on Tuesday.

[Alex]

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=6848&d=239358

This 4-0d a daily on Tuesday.

Yeah, I don't understand how, either. Apparently it just dodged monsters matchups or something.

[Valdarith]

Playing this tonight on MODO:

[deck]
Creatures (20)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (19)
3 Shock
4 Searing Blood
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Dreadbore

Lands (21)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Blood Crypt
3 Swamp
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Devour Flesh
3 Ultimate Price
4 Skullcrack
4 Toil / Trouble
[/deck]

Just crushed Bant Control in first match of an 8-man. Spike Jester too stronk.

[Valdarith]

3-0d the 8-man, beating Bant Control, Naya Aggro, and RW Burn. Honestly the last match is unfavorable but I was able to pull it off.

[Tyrael]

Congratulations

I went 1-4 (worst result in months) with my list yesterday so I don't think this is the deck for me, unfortunately

[Xanatos]

I'd be interested to hear about the Naya Aggro match as I'm not particularly sure how the deck's cards can match up to their quality creatures.

[Valdarith]

I'll try to see if my replays were saved for that match. Game one was a thing of beauty as I was able to juggle my resources and win at one life. The list I was playing had Soldier of the Pantheon, Voice of Resurgence, Boros Reckoner, and Fleecemane Lion. The best strategy to me is to race them. They run 12 shocks so they'll be giving you free damage pretty often, and all the scrylands they run put them at least a turn behind you. You just have to be smart about how you play and pay attention to the board state.