[Primer] Boros Burn

[BlakLanner]

That is a rather...interesting card on the top of his deck.

[BrainsickHater]

In zem's article, he mentioned about how he was unsure of how good Firedancer was against monoblack. I'm curious as to people's thoughts about firedancer. He's in my maindeck and idk if I should side him out against black.

[DXI-Edge]

No see WE know the new list. The rest of the public didnt until the mother ship showed it

[PirateKingAtomsk]

If your opponent is running creature heavy for a black deck then maybe, but black has so many ways to instantly kill it in response to you casting stuff hes more of a dead card then anything else. Personally I'd side it out.

[BlakLanner]

No see WE know the new list. The rest of the public didnt until the mother ship showed it

Right, right. I keep forgetting how far ahead of the curve we are.

As far as Firedancer vs Mono-Black, it tends to get eaten fast. Sometimes I bring it in just to surprise them but more often than not I leave it in the sideboard. Against B/W, however, it is one of my best tools to beat Blood Baron.

[DXI-Edge]

Lol Sam Pardee's videos.

Both my decks on camera! (Burn vs. Uw Devotion)

"This RW Burn deck I dont give much respect to and its usually a good matchup for us (UW Devotion)"

(proceeds to get Spark Trooper'd and burnt out)

"Wow didnt have to cast that many spells. Well thats that I guess"

[Jonnymagic]

I regularly have people tell me to "go play a real deck".

[BlakLanner]

How appropriate that you said that. This was just posted today.

http://www.starcitygames.com/article/28 ... layer.html

[Lightning_Dolt]

I regularly have people tell me to "go play a real deck".

Just slap them across the face with your dick and make out with their girlfriend while holding the GP trophy.

[Jonnymagic]

I actually saw that! Made me laugh. People who don't play red assume that it takes no skill. The math to count to 20 isn't always as cut and dry as "I turn this sideways", lol. I don't mind though, it puts them on tilt regularly. This deck is far better in paper magic because no one has even seen it. My local store now knows it a bit better, and im "that boros burn guy", but they still have no idea how to play against it. On MTGO they've at least seen it and know about it. At the end of the day, we're playing a game that is social -- and more often than not people lose sight of the fact that people have real emotions and feelings that differ from their own. That article on SCG really shows that people get so wrapped up in being elitist, they forget they are talking to an actual person with feelings. To be fair, I HATE losing, but I never insult or demean the play of my opponent. Any deck can do well
on any given day, hell look at the 1996 PT -- it was won by g/r spiders. Really? Spiders? Yup, he won with spiders.

[lorddax]

Don't know if you guys caught this but this deck ended up in a mothership article . . .kind of. Verhey basically alludes to the Z\DtR brew in the end of the article

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... ily/rc/290

[deck=Gavin Verhey's Unfated Burn]
20 Mountain
1 Mutavault

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Guttersnipe
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack

3 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]

If you wanted to evolve this deck further, the first thing I would look into is exploring other colors. Red-white gives you the super-powerful Boros Charm and Warleader's Helix, as well as access to Chained to the Rocks.

This deck is making waves, but I think that the majority of people
who will jump on it won't pilot it as well as the crowd here. That being said, do we need to make any changes to the board or deck for the growing influx of red?

I count at least 25% of my local field playing red cards, making me look at Peak Eruption again as a SB card, but Im not sure if its a wide enough answer atm. Whats the post board % against the mirror that you guys have been getting? Do we rely on just outplaying them or is it worth looking at a SB slot if the deck's adoption continues to grow, now that its appeared on CFB and almost in mothership?

[HK1997]

Just wanted to pop in and say thank you to all for the work and effort that went into this deck (there was a quip by zem about the "guests" coming out of the shadows).
I'm just starting out in magic and was looking for a stable, solid and not too expensive and fun deck to get into standard. Voila! I must say that I can confirm that the R/G Monsters matchup is performing very well. In fact, its been my best one so far on modo. This is probably due to the fact that I dont know what Im doing and playing against RG seems to require less knowledge of my opponents deck. I quite like for them to play courser or domri rade. Free intel and almost no board impact against what this deck is trying to do, lets me just go with my plan without having to play mind games against an opponent, whos decklist I havent memorized yet. BO is a godsend and the best new addition.
Ive gotten blown out pretty hard against BW weenies when
they T2 that first striking, prot against RB spells 2/2 guy and just bestow one eidolon on it after the other. If I dont have one of the 4 chained in hand, game is pretty much over. But I dont really see a way or even a reason to sideboard against this. Since it seems like its the low probability nut draw for him and hopefully wont come up too often.
Id happily draw up some spreadsheets on win rates, but they would be more than useless since im still making a hell of a lot of play errors.

I especially like the entire "mood" of this project and the people writing and contributing. And how focused the discussions revolves around not trying to have card X vs exception Z in the sideboard, but rather to try to find cards that interact with the deck to stabilize gerenal weaknesses against general threats.

Again, a big thank you to all, especially zem, for writing the original Burn article on channel fireball, that sparked my interest! When Im all grown up and know the difference between a pack rat
and a night-veil spectre, I'll try to contribute some insight, if I should have any.

[zenbitz]

I think people will try it and lose and think their meta isn't suited or something. Deck is very difficult. Lost a game last night where I (correctly I think) burned the first domri but then burned another domri and a garruk? And lost the game with him at 11? Bad.

If deck does become big we have to watch out for hexproof and other "continuous" lifegain decks (i.e., we have skullcracks for one-offs).

[laranjaBR]

I count at least 25% of my local field playing red cards, making me look at Peak Eruption again as a SB card, but Im not sure if its a wide enough answer atm. Whats the post board % against the mirror that you guys have been getting? Do we rely on just outplaying them or is it worth looking at a SB slot if the deck's adoption continues to grow, now that its appeared on CFB and almost in mothership?

Eruption is an option, but I personally think the SB is pretty tight and functional as it is. And throughout the history the best burn player takes it.

Basically you can hold your lifegain until they tappout or play the deck abusing instant speed. That's what I'd do...

Ultimately if you think Peak Eruption is a strong meta call and should go for it, then go for it.

[JohnnyfnB]

Don't know if you guys caught this but this deck ended up in a mothership article . . .kind of. Verhey basically alludes to the Z\DtR brew in the end of the article

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... ily/rc/290

[deck=Gavin Verhey's Unfated Burn]
20 Mountain
1 Mutavault

4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Guttersnipe
4 Young Pyromancer

4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack

3 Chandra, Pyromaster[/deck]

If you wanted to evolve this deck further, the first thing I would look into is exploring other colors. Red-white gives you the super-powerful Boros
Charm and Warleader's Helix, as well as access to Chained to the Rocks.

This deck is making waves, but I think that the majority of people who will jump on it won't pilot it as well as the crowd here. That being said, do we need to make any changes to the board or deck for the growing influx of red?

I count at least 25% of my local field playing red cards, making me look at Peak Eruption again as a SB card, but Im not sure if its a wide enough answer atm. Whats the post board % against the mirror that you guys have been getting? Do we rely on just outplaying them or is it worth looking at a SB slot if the deck's adoption continues to grow, now that its appeared on CFB and almost in mothership?

No disrespect to the author of that article or the deck builders of those burn decks. I can say for certain, that the current build that zem has now, will smoke all of those. I wouldn't worry about those decks at all. Regarding the apparent influx of red in decks, I
don't think it's time to play Peak Eruption yet.

[zenbitz]

From the star city games art:

Count to twenty.
Return Phoenix.
Melt face.

This would make a good t-shirt. Just sayin' (technically the quote is "melt faces" but "melt face" is better I think, stylistically.

[BrainsickHater]

Sideboarding question:

What about sideboarding out Phoenix on the draw against GR monsters? In my configuration, when I'm on the draw against monsters I want to side in all these things:

4 Chained to the Rocks
3 Spark Trooper
2 Blind Obedience
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Shock

I board out x4 zealot, x4 skullcrack, and then what? I feel like Phoenix isn't great on the draw because if we're on the back foot we spend our whole turn doing 2 damage and playing a creature that doesn't match up well to our opponent's (in both racing and blocking). Furthermore, they can interact with it. If they really want to, they can mortars it to set us back in a race or clear the skies. It just feels like Phoenix isn't the best thing we can doing, and might be worth boarding out for the other four cards I want. Although I haven't gotten to jam as many games as I like, and I could be wrong.

[lorddax]

With the popularity slowly growing for the deck, I was wondering what an answer to the deck might look like and how to counter said answer. This is where I ended up, which looking at it now, is pretty much a GW revival without optimization.

---

[deck]5 Forest
11 Plains
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Plenty

4 Gladecover Scout
4 Fleecemane Lion
4 Fiendslayer Paladin
4 Witchstalker
4 Rhox Faithmender
3 Archangel of Thune

3 Bow of Nylea
3 Ranger's Guile
3 Gift of Orzhova
4 Unflinching Courage
[/deck]
Also -3 Guile +3 Sunbond if doubling down on a hexproof+bow interaction. Possibly swapping a card for Caryatid to drop mender and angel faster

SB would possibly run Celestial Flare, Advent, Trostani, chained

I couldn't find a good answer to this in our current card SB configuration, but I think currently the rest of the field would keep this
deck out, particularly because MBC punishes this deck hard.

[Googims]

if hexproof decks start popping up everywhere, think glaring spotlight might be good tech?

[lorddax]

I was looking at Glaring, but just like Eruption, its very narrow and a dead slot if an opposing deck doesnt run it. And in reality its not the hexproof thats the problem, its the uninteractable lifelink. So I'd want a card that seeks to deal with constant life gain ala Leyline of Punishment or a card that would be able to deal with their growing life which is killing our VCA. Going after enchantments also hurts our Burn plan. If we had some way to deal with the life increase, then the game plan is similar to playing decks running big green dudes

Might be getting too offtopic on a theoretical counter deck tho lol

[Toddington]

Seems to me that the threat of Hexproof decks is the Lifelink enchantments, and if you want to play reactive you blow up the Aura rather than the creature. Glaring Spotlight isn't much good when the dude's like a 7/7 anyway.

[JohnnyfnB]

But now you can Chain the 7/7.

[DriftingLifted]

Hey Zem, I noticed on some of your reddit replies you're keeping the developments of the deck mostly confined to DtR. Do you prefer less information getting out there for now, realized it could possibly influence any live events you're doing if people know what's coming.

[BrainsickHater]

Sideboarding question:

What about sideboarding out Phoenix on the draw against GR monsters? In my configuration, when I'm on the draw against monsters I want to side in all these things:

4 Chained to the Rocks
3 Spark Trooper
2 Blind Obedience
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Shock

I board out x4 zealot, x4 skullcrack, and then what? I feel like Phoenix isn't great on the draw because if we're on the back foot we spend our whole turn doing 2 damage and playing a creature that doesn't match up well to our opponent's (in both racing and blocking). Furthermore, they can interact with it. If they really want to, they can mortars it to set us back in a race or clear the skies. It just feels like Phoenix isn't the best thing we can doing, and might be
worth boarding out for the other four cards I want. Although I haven't gotten to jam as many games as I like, and I could be wrong.

Anyone want to answer this? I'm dying for some input.

[Purp]

I think that he wants to both keep it somewhat private as well as wants to help drive traffic to the site. Plus, don't want to get give all of our tech away to people who have not worked to deserve it!

[zenbitz]

Yes, it's a resolved unflinching courage that's nigh unbeatable, not a witchstalker. Note that the budget heroic decks that run stuff (lifelink enchantments) like this are bad too.
Fabled Hero + Unflinching courage is a 5/5 double striker trample lifelink -- double burn or lose game on the spot. Or the even jankier Eidolon of Countless Battles + Ethereal Armor + Hopeful Eidolon.

It seems that the best hexproof decks do run red and can easily mulligan themselves to death, so peak eruption is good and at least it hurts other decks. Burning earth also not insane.

All with the caveat that we are leveling ourselves here until it's an actual threat.

[zemanjaski]

Sideboarding question:

What about sideboarding out Phoenix on the draw against GR monsters? In my configuration, when I'm on the draw against monsters I want to side in all these things:

4 Chained to the Rocks
3 Spark Trooper
2 Blind Obedience
2 Mizzium Mortars
1 Shock

I board out x4 zealot, x4 skullcrack, and then what? I feel like Phoenix isn't great on the draw because if we're on the back foot we spend our whole turn doing 2 damage and playing a creature that doesn't match up well to our opponent's (in both racing and blocking). Furthermore, they can interact with it. If
they really want to, they can mortars it to set us back in a race or clear the skies. It just feels like Phoenix isn't the best thing we can doing, and might be worth boarding out for the other four cards I want. Although I haven't gotten to jam as many games as I like, and I could be wrong.

Anyone want to answer this? I'm dying for some input.

You're not leaving yourself with enough ways to kill them quickly; you're going to be locked in to needing to answer every card they play.

[zemanjaski]

Discussion of GW aggro and Hexproof can stop. I really hope I don't need to explain why.

[Khaospawn]

I think that he wants to both keep it somewhat private as well as wants to help drive traffic to the site. Plus, don't want to get give all of our tech away to people who have not worked to deserve it!

Agreed.

If there's one that I know about zem, is that the easiest way to get under is skin is to be a taker. The people that want all the answers delivered on a silver platter, like perfect sideboard options for every deck that are 'set in stone,' are people that don't think for themselves, and therefore will never become a better Magic player or will never contribute anything. Zem has no problem answering questions or helping people. But, overall, he respects thinkers and contributors. He does not want to waste his time "playing the game for
other people."

Time and time again, he puts his work out there for people to see. And, more often than not, eventually people show up to just to demand everything from him without attempting to give anything back. It's enough to make anyone more cautious about doing stuff for free. Some people think his snark and sarcasm means he's just an asshole (well, sometimes he is, but we love him anyway for it ), but really it's a combination of his exasperation and "tough love." He wasn't always like that, but he's had to deal with people (who shall remain nameless) that have blatantly ripped off his work without proper credit, tons of PMs regarding questions he's answered numerous times in various threads (like the Vexing Devil incidents), and has, at times (like during Fall States 2012), tirelessly spent hours doing personal deck techs with other forum users for absolutely
nothing.

Diestoremoval.com brings a different group of forum posters. Most are ex-Sally users. Others are recruits from IRL. And still more are people brought over thanks to his links on CFB and other places. The crowd here is more apt to actually put in work, and the loose moderation is actually helpful in our discussions when compared to cesspits like MTGSalvation. We have more thinkers and contributors. Our disagreements are hashed out rather quickly without erupting into total flame wars. What this means is that this environment is more suitable for collaboration and advancement of deck theories. Zem thrives in an environment like this. And we will too.

[Khaospawn]

Discussion of GW aggro and Hexproof can stop. I really hope I don't need to explain why.

I'm laughing because I see this after I made my above post.

[zemanjaski]

Welcome HK1997 very nice of you to join us

[zemanjaski]

Hey Zem, I noticed on some of your reddit replies you're keeping the developments of the deck mostly confined to DtR. Do you prefer less information getting out there for now, realized it could possibly influence any live events you're doing if people know what's coming.

I have a gpt to win, a MODO bankroll to build and I need content for future articles.

[zemanjaski]

@ Khaos:

[Jonnymagic]

Ya, we just take the loss for hexproof and move on. I have won a total of 2 games against that deck though. ITS NOT IMPOSSIBLE!!! Lol. Ok it really is, but there's times they lose to themselves =D. The s/b is so tight right now, that we can't really mess with anything. Until the meta drastically shifts, (unless zem has found something in his extensive CFB testingzzz), the 75 is about as tightly tuned as possible.

[Purp]

How do you guys SB for hexproof? Here is what I do:

+4 FDS +X Spark Tropper +3 Firstblade
-4 Searing Blood -3 Shock -X card

[Tyrael]

There's no point trying to warp your deck to beat decks that make up a marginal part of the meta anyway

All things considered, I think burn might end up being the deck to beat at future events

I hope to see zem somewhere up there in the rankings!

[DXI-Edge]

People

GW and Hexproof are almost unwinnable.

Chalk it up as a loss and, unfortunately, move on

[Purp]

GW pretty easy. I have found the best strategy vs hexproof is to race them with creatures and hope their CiPT lands slow them down.

[Jonnymagic]

g/w I havent had any issues with really. I have only played 3-4 matches but won most 2-0. It needs a larger pool for me to say that in general, but I haven't felt bad about any that I have played.

[zemanjaski]

I beat GW twice at the GP. It's more that the deck sucks and no one plays it. You don't worry about a deck that's 1% of the meta.

Hexproof is unwinnable but also just as unpopular.