[Primer] Boros Burn

[warwizard87]

looking at the recent scgs open, top 16 decks were 1 American control, 2 u/w control, 4 MBD, 1 Junk midrange, 1 B/w Midrange, 1 Esper, 1 G/R monsters, 1 Jund Monsters, 1 Mono green devotion, 1 Uw Devotion, 1 Rg devotion, 1 gw agro......What a messy meta game.

Seems MBD is still top at lest in numbers. interesting development is the American control deck http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66909 this deck has definite promise. one of the MBD is actually Bg devotion http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66905 it seems really strong with abrupt decays for our chained to the rocks and golgari charms out of the board for our assembles.

there were only a
total of 8 mana confluence between all 16 decks 4 of which were all in the G/W deck. seems it hasn't made much impact at all.

shocked no burn in the top 16.

also on a good note no naya hexprove popped into the top 16.

[HK1997]

one of the MBD is actually Bg devotion http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66905 it seems really strong with abrupt decays for our chained to the rocks and golgari charms out of the board for our assembles.

I agree. Went up against this online already. I'm thinking of going entirely creatureless post board and calling his 2 Golgari charms and 3 Abrubt decays out for a topdeck battle with my chains and assembles. Forcing him to use his GCs and ADs as creature removal vs Chandras can work as well. But all in all, this matchup got a lot harder since they now have an answer to one of our best win conditions,
not to mention chained or the new O-Ring.

[warwizard87]

one of the MBD is actually Bg devotion http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66905 it seems really strong with abrupt decays for our chained to the rocks and golgari charms out of the board for our assembles.

I agree. Went up against this online already. I'm thinking of going entirely creatureless post board and calling his 2 Golgari charms and 3 Abrubt decays out for a topdeck battle with my chains and assembles. Forcing him to use his GCs and ADs as
creature removal vs Chandras can work as well. But all in all, this matchup got a lot harder since they now have an answer to one of our best win conditions, not to mention chained or the new O-Ring.

looks like over the next couple days im gonna run a 40+ game stress test vs it to see if it is fine as is or if we might have to switch something up. gonan take a couple days though =/

the thing is though, we have perfect info we KNOW we are boarding in assembles, not every burn player sides in assembles in this match up http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=64826 http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=65556 http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=65505

so unless they are familiar with our style of side we might be safe off with the correct side since they may not even bring in the charms.

that said I may be right back on the toil/trouble plan.....however I have been thinking of a slight blue splash for turn//burn proly bad but who knows.

[montu]

Got surprised by this. Opp was at 5 life. I was expecting to Skullcrack him for 3, get 2x Phoenix back, and swing with one of them for his last 2 life. Instead, my Phoenix's got exiled and he was up to 8 life. (Fortunately, I won a few turns later because I was able to get Chandra on the board and get enough burn in.)

[montu]

one of the MBD is actually Bg devotion http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66905 it seems really strong with abrupt decays for our chained to the rocks and golgari charms out of the board for our assembles.

I agree. Went up against this online already. I'm thinking of going entirely creatureless post board and calling his 2 Golgari charms and 3 Abrubt decays out for a topdeck battle with my chains and assembles. Forcing him to use his GCs and ADs as
creature removal vs Chandras can work as well. But all in all, this matchup got a lot harder since they now have an answer to one of our best win conditions, not to mention chained or the new O-Ring.

I lost to this 1st round of the DE this morning. It was ugly.

(I'm currently 2-1 in the DE. Hoping to get that QP.)

EDIT: Got a bye in Round 4. Cha-Ching!

[Midnight_v]

there were only a total of 8 mana confluence between all 16 decks 4 of which were all in the G/W deck. seems it hasn't made much impact at all.

shocked no burn in the top 16.

also on a good note no naya hexprove popped into the top 16.

3 things.
Mana confluence. It think enough people are old enough to understand city of brass to know that 4 is the wrong number, and also midrange has scrylands so theres NOT a supreme amount of pressure to just jam in 4.

Burn: If you look I'm sure you'll find that there were very few burn players at the tourney. Look for instance at Jeff Hooglands deck. The good mana overall lends to "good stuff" decks, and lots of people WILL try to jam those things together, and if they've been waiting for it some of those decks will be good. Couple that with the sheer amount of lifegain... people probbably aren't willing to try to work past it if
they're not all in red mages. Just general theory about path of least resistance.

Hexproof: I'm going to make an obvious call here... hexproof is the "Classic Dredge" of standard. It will win ONLY if no one is looking for it. As long as people are looking for it (and to be sure they are because of basara tower archer) it can't be a thing. When people for get about it it has a chance to top 8 but it likely won't win. Why? Splash damage. It doesn't do a lot vs U/W/x that runs everythign from 6 oblivion rings (attacking enchanments and voice) to ... well you know. While B/x devtion are still running devour flesh because of BBoV and being able to eat thier own guys. As anoying as "rage tears" vs burn it has problems on its own.

Crypt Incurstion

I...I'm suprised it doesn't see more play. I used it last season vs Junk reanimator... casually gain 30 life. I seriously thought it had cycled out.
MONTU! Are you still
youtubing your games? Post a link man, I'd like to check it out.

[zenbitz]

Titan's Strength is bad in the same way Chained to the Rocks is bad (because it's sometimes dead or can lead to a 2-for-1). Or young pyromancer with no shock/jet back up is bad. It's actually slightly less hassle to lava spike them off of a token or pheonix than it is to get a YP out with a backup. If you tap out I can safely add TS to any creature. But if I tap out for YP you can untap and kill it without a response.

Possibly more interesting is that Prophetic Flamespeaker is the removal magnet (and that was the only reason I was considering TS anyway).[/quote:
2kcwvrz2]

Stop.

Zem, I really have no problem with you being rude to me -- but I think I have earned the right to get corrected specifically. I don't get to play much - I have a wife, a kid, a full time job and a 1.5 hour commute. Each way. By posting my thoughts here I hope that folks who are better at magic than I can point out the flaws in my thinking -- much as if if we had played a friendly match I would hope that someone would point out my misplays. That is how we get better, after all.

Thanks.

[Midnight_v]

I was thinking... about crypt incursion. It MIGHT see more use but realistically all the top decks just have way bettter ways of gaining life. Gary,Rev,BBoV,GhostD... so really thats a pretty random siding, honestly. Maybe if dredge goes on to be the best deck, but ... not worth considering. Just making sure I didn't come off sounding like it's a "good thing" tm.

Zenbitz... it's because from what you wrote (and I'm just now seeing it) I'd imagine the "stop" comment is because its almost offensive to suggest that Titan's Strength is the rough equivalent to Chained to the Rocks. It just doesn't even out, in anyway.... at all... dead for different reasons at different times but chains has done such incredible work for the archtype so far its just one of those moments that would make anyone want to say: Stop.
I agree with you though, when people don't know or are looking in the
wrong direction, its probbably worth taking the time to explain, but then I'm no Zeman.
In other news. . . you say:

I have a wife, a kid, a full time job and a 1.5 hour commute.

1st. I feel you.
2. Thats a terrible excuse. We ALL have "real lives" you don't have the monopoly on being a grown up. Just for mutual respect assume that we have similar life posistions from you. Zeman is a member of a lawfirm last I checked, I'm a law encforcement guy, and yarpus is playring under the yoke of an oppressive dictatorship, in a 2nd world country. Redthirst is ...okay redthirst is a probbably space pirate of somekind, but all jokes aside well all have lives sir.
3. Likely most important. If you have a 1.5 hour commute I suggest checking out some of MDU's/or Montus videos playing burn. It really demonstrates available stratagies, and the importance of certain cards. Its a way of getting better when you're not actually playing, and hearing some random tunes.
GL

[montu]

Crypt Incurstion

I...I'm suprised it doesn't see more play. I used it last season vs Junk reanimator... casually gain 30 life. I seriously thought it had cycled out.
MONTU! Are you still youtubing your games? Post a link man, I'd like to check it out.

About Crypt Incursion - I forgot to mention, he played it twice. The first time to rob me of my Phoenix's (and the immediate win), and the second time to empty his graveyard for another 12 points. If I hadn't gotten Chandra on the board, I would have been in trouble because he got a Specter and Demon on the board.

I havent been recording my games. (I should start up again, it's rewarding.) My sideboard is currently a mess . . . probably will seriously start working on my 75 again once JOU hits MTGO. I'm currently just playing to hit 35 QPs. During my non-game time, I've been reading through Next Level Magic and Next Level Deck Building to get a better understanding of the fundamentals.

I've technically gone infinite now (just barely). The last 203 tickets I've spent have resulted in 208 back. If I could squeeze in more DE's, that would be higher. (You need a 61% match win rate to break even in 8P's, but only a 52% rate for DEs.)

[montu]

Zem, I really have no problem with you being rude to me -- but I think I have earned the right to get corrected specifically. I don't get to play much - I have a wife, a kid, a full time job and a 1.5 hour commute. Each way. By posting my thoughts here I hope that folks who are better at magic than I can point out the flaws in my thinking -- much as if if we had played a friendly match I would hope that someone would point out my misplays. That is how we get better, after all.

@zenbit - My welcome to the forum was Zem telling me I probably wasn't as good as I thought I was. (He was right.) The absolute best thing I did to improve my play
was to watch MDU's videos.

The absolute most common mistake I've made is not playing Skullcrack strategically, like tapping out when they could potentially play WLH or Gary on their next turn. The second is not focusing on what I'm trying to do (20 burn to the dome), and getting side-tracked trying to kill Planewalkers, etc.

[LaZerBurn]

The vast majority of the time - all as far as I know but just in case - when longer standing forum members are 'rude' in response to a post it's because the poster clearly hasn't read the thread as if they had they wouldn't have made the post

[JohnnyfnB]

Regardless if someone didn't see or neglected to read something, we shouldn't be rude to each other.

[warwizard87]

there were only a total of 8 mana confluence between all 16 decks 4 of which were all in the G/W deck. seems it hasn't made much impact at all.

shocked no burn in the top 16.

also on a good note no naya hexprove popped into the top 16.

3 things.
Mana confluence. It think enough people are old enough to understand city of brass to know that 4 is the wrong number, and also midrange has scrylands so theres NOT a supreme amount of pressure to just jam in 4.

Burn: If you look I'm sure you'll find that there were very few burn players at the tourney. Look for instance at Jeff Hooglands deck. The good mana overall lends to "good stuff" decks, and lots of people WILL try to jam those things together, and if they've
been waiting for it some of those decks will be good. Couple that with the sheer amount of lifegain... people probbably aren't willing to try to work past it if they're not all in red mages. Just general theory about path of least resistance.

Hexproof: I'm going to make an obvious call here... hexproof is the "Classic Dredge" of standard. It will win ONLY if no one is looking for it. As long as people are looking for it (and to be sure they are because of basara tower archer) it can't be a thing. When people for get about it it has a chance to top 8 but it likely won't win. Why? Splash damage. It doesn't do a lot vs U/W/x that runs everythign from 6 oblivion rings (attacking enchanments and voice) to ... well you know. While B/x devtion are still running devour flesh because of BBoV and being able to eat thier own guys. As anoying as "rage tears" vs burn it has problems on its own.

Crypt Incurstion

I...I'm
suprised it doesn't see more play. I used it last season vs Junk reanimator... casually gain 30 life. I seriously thought it had cycled out.
MONTU! Are you still youtubing your games? Post a link man, I'd like to check it out.

Yeah I figured mana confluence wasn't going to be impactfull, it was just a observation of the format

We don't know what decks were played in what percentage past top 16 since scgs dosnt post anything past that. So could of been a flood a few or none.

Pointed out lack of hexproof since it directly impacts our win percentage in a room.

[warwizard87]

Quick aside just checked bg devotion won the event, so yeah testing vs it is gonna be mandatory it seems.

[Purp]

Top 8'd my IQ yesterday. Lost R1 to my playtesting buddy playing BG, grinded out 4 wins and then lost to him again in R1 of the top 8. Deck is tough to beat. With that and UW doing so well this weekend, I need to start getting the deck ready for SCG Knoxville next weekend.

[warwizard87]

Purp any suggestions for the match I haven't been able to test it yet.

[zenbitz]

I'd imagine the "stop" comment is because its almost offensive to suggest that Titan's Strength is the rough equivalent to Chained to the Rocks. It just doesn't even out

Yeah, see that's not what I meant. Of course it's much worse than Chained. The question is -- is it better than shock (which is probably the worst card in the deck)? The GOOD thing about shock is that it's never, ever dead. As long as you have 1 red source. But when it's live it's usually underwhelming.

I am happy to have people tell me I am bad at magic or have wrong ideas. I just need them to explain it to me.

[Elricity]

Shock is not always the worst card in the deck. In some matchups, it's in fact one of our better spells. If it were truly bad, we'd run something else. We're not lacking on burn spells.

Not using titan's strength is about consistency which we've explained before. I'm not understanding the comparison between a creature pump spell with anything else in the deck. Can you explain?

[Purp]

[deck]4 YP$
4 Phoenix

4 of every burn spell but 1 searing blood

2 chain
2 banishing light

7 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Temple of Silence
2 Temple of Malice
1 Mana Conflux

SB
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Mutavault
2 Wear Tear
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Chandra
2 Chained to the Rocks
3 Toil Trouble
2 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

That was the deck I ran for IQ top 8. SBD was great in the control match I needed him. 2 Wear was perfect. Searing Blood the worst card for me all day, because I didn't play against any aggro. I expect BG popularity to rise, which makes me think YP$ might need to be replaced with Ash Zealot. At the same time though, I think YP$ is better everywhere else...

ps- can we stop discussing titans str, and can we stop commenting on someones skill, or trying to defend arguments etc... Get over it, its the internet. Let's talk about making the deck better.

[amcfvieira]

I think you miss 3 Mutavault in your list

[Elricity]

Did the mana confluence ever help you? I generally don't like bleeding life in this deck.

I still haven't been enthused with searing blood and would rather have flames vs any of the decks at the moment.

I did record the daily even I just did. I am pretty sure I played round 3, games 2 and 3 about the worst way possible.

Against mono blue, I tried to play it safe and burn him out game 3 when I probably should have forced creatures at him. I was scared of playing around him boomeranging my chain on his master and getting blown out which happened twice game 1.

[zemanjaski]

I just hate the idea of Titan's Strength in a deck with so few creatures. Every time it is mentioned I am convinced the suggester is the best player in a store of terrible players.

[Purp]

2 Super IQs were taken down yesterday by burn lists packing Ash Zealot. I expect BG will rise in popularity, and control will certainly be gaining headway. I think it might be time for Ash Zealot to creep back into lists.

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandras Phoenix

4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 WLH
4 Shock
1 Searing Blood

2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Banishing Light

7 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Scry Lands
1 Mana Conflux

SB
2 Wear Tear
2 Assemble
1 Chandra
1 Mutavault
1 Blind Obediance (I believe this can now be boarded in vs control to help combat some of the lifegain from Ram, also Ash is much weaker vs Monsters so this is another hedge for the matchup. Also helps with Obzedat)
3 Toil Trouble
1 SBD
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium[/deck]

This might be were I am starting in my testing this week to prepare for Knoxville. I still like 4 shock because
it essentially combos with ash the same as searing blood for mana less. The one of Searing Blood could easily be a Stormbreath Dragon.

Could also imagine a creature base like this:
[deck]
3 YP$
2 Ash Zealot
4 Phoenix[/deck]

[DixieFlatline]

2 Super IQs were taken down yesterday by burn lists packing Ash Zealot. I expect BG will rise in popularity, and control will certainly be gaining headway. I think it might be time for Ash Zealot to creep back into lists.

[deck]
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandras Phoenix

4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Boros Charm
4 Skullcrack
4 WLH
4 Shock
1 Searing Blood

2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Banishing Light

7 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
8 Scry Lands
1 Mana Conflux

SB
2 Wear Tear
2 Assemble
1 Chandra
1 Mutavault
1 Blind Obediance (I believe this can now be boarded in vs control to help combat some of the lifegain from Ram, also Ash is much weaker vs Monsters so this is another hedge for the matchup. Also helps with Obzedat)
3 Toil Trouble
1 SBD
n2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Mizzium[/deck]

Thanks Purp. I really like the addition of the four exile effects in 2 chained and 2 o rings, I ran it in a few of the tournaments I played in over the weekend and the cards always saw action. Have you tested at all with Ash Zealots back in the deck? Just not sure how I feel about it, they typically change the entire style of the deck from tempo to aggro. YP just seems so much more consistent.

[Purp]

I top 8d the IQ with YP$, but both of my losses were to BG. I think I want to put more of a clock on them with ash zealot, trying to possibly force them to use Abrupt Decay on my two drop rather than one of my 6 enchantments. I don't think we can rely on Assemble as much vs them, so the idea of increasing the clock seems nice.

[montu]

Seems MBD is still top at lest in numbers. interesting development is the American control deck http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66909 this deck has definite promise. one of the MBD is actually Bg devotion http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=66905 it seems really strong with abrupt decays for our chained to the rocks and golgari charms out of the board for our assembles.

Golgari Charm messes up YP more than Assemble. At least with Assemble, it is only a 1-turn
affect.

[montu]

I top 8d the IQ with YP$, but both of my losses were to BG. I think I want to put more of a clock on them with ash zealot, trying to possibly force them to use Abrupt Decay on my two drop rather than one of my 6 enchantments. I don't think we can rely on Assemble as much vs them, so the idea of increasing the clock seems nice.

I've been running the Ash version for about 10 days. Yes, it does put them under more pressure. But, OMG does it suck when the top deck an Abrupt Decay after you've chained their Demon.

[Purp]

Well the thing is that the charm not only messed up YP$, it also DESTORYs Assemble since it is an enchantment.

[JohnnyfnB]

I top 8d the IQ with YP$, but both of my losses were to BG. I think I want to put more of a clock on them with ash zealot, trying to possibly force them to use Abrupt Decay on my two drop rather than one of my 6 enchantments. I don't think we can rely on Assemble as much vs them, so the idea of increasing the clock seems nice.

I've been running the Ash version for about 10 days. Yes, it does put them under more pressure. But, OMG does it suck when the top deck an Abrupt Decay after you've chained their Demon.

If B/G becomes more popular (which it will) and enchant hate, maybe
consider swapping CttR with Reprisals. The creature will be gone, can't be regenerated and it handles Obzedat, Troll in Dredge deck, G/R monsters etc. Any creature with a power of 3 or less we can burn away. I think it's a solid sb addition. This set is really pushing the "big creature" play too.

[Lightning_Dolt]

That's an excellent idea.

[Purp]

If you cut 2 chains in the side for them, then you must commit to having more early game creature removal. It's a good idea, but I am not sure if I like cutting answers to cards like necromancer, voice, courser, ooze.. etc

[Elricity]

You would still have 4 exiles which is what you would have had before. That said, I'm not sure I want to do this against BG control because frankly, we're still trying to resolve assemble and as much as we can screen it, the better. They are only going to have so much hate unless you think they're actually going to 4 decay/4 charm which...I doubt.

[Purp]

4 Decay 2 Charm will be norm. I would also expect an uptick in Destructive Revelry. Something like 2 Chain 2 Banishing Light main, 3 Chain 1 Reprisal side doesnt seem terrible.

[zenbitz]

OK, OK, agreed. I am still not convinced that it's horrible as a 2 of BUT I am probably wrong. And just to be sure - it's certainly bad without Prophetic Flamespeaker (a card I give a solid "I dunno" to)

[Rhyno]

I top 8d the IQ with YP$, but both of my losses were to BG. I think I want to put more of a clock on them with ash zealot, trying to possibly force them to use Abrupt Decay on my two drop rather than one of my 6 enchantments. I don't think we can rely on Assemble as much vs them, so the idea of increasing the clock seems nice.

I've been running the Ash version for about 10 days. Yes, it does put them under more pressure. But, OMG does it
suck when the top deck an Abrupt Decay after you've chained their Demon.

If B/G becomes more popular (which it will) and enchant hate, maybe consider swapping CttR with Reprisals. The creature will be gone, can't be regenerated and it handles Obzedat, Troll in Dredge deck, G/R monsters etc. Any creature with a power of 3 or less we can burn away. I think it's a solid sb addition. This set is really pushing the "big creature" play too.

Reprisals don't hit Master of Waves or Courser of Kruphix, which are both Chain on Sight. If a piece of splashed removal cant even hit those 2 targets, I don't think I want it. Hitting Obzedat is nice though, he can certainly close a game out.

[JohnnyfnB]

It has to be tested. Full swaps might not work, who knows? It's an answer to a lot of problems we face. Regarding MoW, by the time he comes out he should only give 1 to 2 tokens at best. Mono U isn't a bad mu for us. Yes CttR was our silver bullet for MoW, but it's still good for us. Courser of Kruphix is not a problem at all as long as you have SFD in your sb. That mu gets a lot better with him. A lot better. There's lots of enchantmentx in this block and with it disenchant spells. I'd rather get rid of something once, than have to deal with it again. All that for 1 extra mana at instant speed, which will trigger YP where CttR doesn't.

[montu]

Well the thing is that the charm not only messed up YP$, it also DESTORYs Assemble since it is an enchantment.

Yeah, I shouldn't post before I've had my morning Monster drink.

[Rhyno]

Regarding MoW, by the time he comes out he should only give 1 to 2 tokens at best. Mono U isn't a bad mu for us. Yes CttR was our silver bullet for MoW, but it's still good for us. Courser of Kruphix is not a problem at all as long as you have SFD in your sb. That mu gets a lot better with him. A lot better. There's lots of enchantmentx in this block and with it disenchant spells. I'd rather get rid of something once, than have to deal with it again. All that for 1 extra mana at instant speed, which will trigger YP where CttR doesn't.

We have different opinions on MoW and Courser I guess. Are you burning out every single Frostburn Weird and Nightveil Specter or something? And a courser or two gaining even 3 or 4 life starts costing us
cards and shuts down the ground game.
EDIT: I'm also not saying Reprisal is bad, I'm just saying I won't be replacing CttR unless I'm very impressed by it.

[JohnnyfnB]

@Rhyno One thing you should know is I main SFD and don't play YP. I'm one of the rogues, because my shop is mainly aggro and like 1 to 3 control decks at the most on one night. Mono U I burn everything except FBW, unless they are greedy and pump him (which most times they are). Courser of Kruphix depending on the situation and cards in hand, he will go, but again I run SFD and their lack of removal makes my mu much easier. I have extensive testing against G/R and Jund. One of my play test partners ran it and placed 11th at a TCG 5k. Stupidly I played Mono Blk that event and placed 70th. I should have ran the burn deck, would have done 1000 times better.

I will test something like 3 Reprisial, 2 Banishing Light, 1 CttR. Changing the numbers and count several times I'm sure. We have to see how the meta will shape. The first 2 months are brew city, then it starts to stabilize.

[Lightning_Dolt]

We probably want some number of mizzium mortars for courser.