Dies to Removal

Before night, so I know if you're scum or not, please.

So, RCW, you read stardust and myself as scummy? Please case us.

I don't think Stardust is scum. But he's not town right now, either.

You're my strongest scum read and I've already explained why itt. You've been sitting back and posting/voting at opportune times for scum, with thin reasons for your actions.

Before night, so I know if you're scum or not, please.

Even this post is scummy.

It's like you're saying "I'm going to act town, and throw scum mud on someone else to look town, to cover my tracks." It's possible you have a town oriented night action, like vigilante, but I doubt you'd open yourself up to that line of thinking from scum if you're really town.

Read into it what you will. I'm not following your logic on my request for your read being throwing scum mud or whatever you said

govern Jamie

You gotta bold it if it's your power.

how bout some rules holy shit

govern jamie

"how bout them rules" i mean

It's more for the mod's convenience and to make sure he doesn't miss it. I'd hate for you to hang because of silly bold tags.

How many town cards were you dealt?

Alright then, I guess we have to do something else today.

Question to everyone: Who is scummier - rcw or imopen2?

Question to rcw: Why did you refuse to hammer Jamie? Surely you must realise that if he were a super saint, you dying would actually help town.

Wait a second, is that how the ability works? We get the chance to lynch someone else?

It's different depending on the game, but looking at the roles on the wiki, it sounds like Jamie simply can't be lynched today. I assume the Day doesn't end (at least, it doesn't specify).

I don't think you're the scummiest player here, I'm just offering a suggestion about which townie should absorb the Saint hammer if one actually exists.

Huh, hamfactorial knows I'm town?

hammy, why would you word this like this? Even if you're not letting slip that I'm town, thinking like this makes no sense coming from someone with no information (ie: a townie). "Which townie should absorb the Saint hammer" should be replaced by "who should we force to hammer so we can catch two scum". I initially thought you were just being wrong, but now that I think about it, this mindset just doesn't make sense coming from a townie.

Alright then, I guess we have to do something else today.

Question to everyone: Who is scummier - rcw or imopen2?

Question to rcw: Why did you refuse to hammer Jamie? Surely you must realise that if he were a super saint, you dying would actually help town.

Help me out here. How does two townies dying help town? Assuming Jamie was the town supersaint which likely isn't true now.

He could have been mafia supersaint. If he does flip town for some crazy reason, I'm coming for you (but only after lynching WitchHunt).

Townies dying helps town if those townies were under suspicion. You are my best lead on scum. If that continues, you will need to die at some point before I move on to others. Better to kill you now than waste a lynch. Dechs understood this, which is why he volunteered to hammer.

I get the whole narrowing the field argument but it only goes so far. Knocking off two townies, or sacrificing a townie to get a potential mafia supersaint, just to get more information from a very mild D1 doesn't sound like a winning approach in a game with so many possible factions.

Jamie has been spared!

Votes have been reset.

Not Voting (9): Rednihilist [87], Hamfactorial [142], WitchHunt [257], Stardust [257], rcwraspy [257], imopen2 [257], Dechs Kaison [257], imopen2 [257], Jamie [257], Lord_Mcdonalds [257]

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

Jamie cannot be lynched today.

-----

I don't think you're the scummiest player here, I'm just offering a suggestion about which townie should absorb the Saint hammer if one actually exists.

Huh, hamfactorial knows I'm town?

hammy, why would you word this like this? Even if you're not letting slip that I'm town, thinking like this makes no sense coming from someone with no information (ie: a townie). "Which townie should absorb the Saint hammer" should be replaced by "who should we force to hammer so we can catch two scum". I initially thought you were just being wrong, but now that I think about it, this mindset just doesn't make sense coming from a townie.

I don't know if you're town, and I don't think you're the scummiest here. The two aren't mutually exclusive in a multi-faction setup.

My post about you addressed the possibility of end-of-day waffling over the hammer vote on Jamie in the face of saint speculation.

Raspy already said he wasn't interested in hammering, see this exchange here -

I'm happy with a RCW hammer

good for you. it's unlikely to happen.

If raspy wasn't going to play along, and Jamie was sitting around at L-1 with townies afraid to hammer him, I suggested you do it instead. You claim you're town, you don't want us to be in your cult, so absorbing the saint blowback (if one existed) would prevent us from turning cult after you die, preserving your stated town win condition.

I offered to hammer, since I didn't think he was a saint. Dechs offered the same. You didn't comment on my suggestion until after we got Jamie's governor reveal. Why did you wait?

I did comment. In the post immediately following yours. What I didn't catch then is that you were assuming I was a townie when it came to who needed to die. "Which townie should absorb the Saint hammer" is the part of your post I'm now taking issue with, because I think it might points towards you not being wrong, but being scum.

You should always get the scummiest player to hammer a super saint. It gives the town a free lynch. If the majority rules on someone who should hammer and that person refuses, it gives you a solid lynch for the next Day.

Anyway, you (and everyone else) should answer my question about imopen2 and rcw.

Well, I've got a little bit of announcement, while re-reading and playing catch up in the thread I caught onto this.

The card i took alignment from was cop/lover

Since people started revealing their alignment card its best for everyone to follow suit, since whatever advantage there is gets you killed.

I'm counter claiming, I didn't have Town Lover, I had Town Cop/Lover as my card. I realize a Cop is a reasonably powerful role, and the reason I didn't pick it as my card was because there were so many factions besides Mafia and when doubled with the Lover portion of the card I didn't feel too keen on it.

I'm okay with revealing my previous sketchy claim simply because the counter claim profit is too strong.

Vote: Jamie

I'm in it for the town. If this backfires and I get lynched or NKed, you'll know to take out Jamie next.

Jamie's cards are, at this point, the following -

1. Town Vanilla (discarded)
2. XXX 1-shot Governor (revealed through ability use)
3. (Unknown)

The wiki shows a Mafia 1-shot Governor card and a Town 1-shot Governor card. We know he chose that for his ability, since he just used it. Neither card's alignment matters, since it gets ignored.

Card #3 is the one he chose for his alignment. He lied about using "Town Cop/Lover" if WitchHunt is to be believed (see possibility 3).

Possibility 1: Jamie's 3rd card was Town.

If his third card was town, he'd have no reason to lie about using Town Cop/Lover as his third card. Possibility 1 is likely not true.

Possibility 2: Jamie's 3rd card was non-town

If his third card was non-town, he would have incentive to lie about his Town Cop/Lover card to avoid being lynched by the town. He may not be mafia, but he could be alien, neutral, werewolf, etc.

Possibility 3: WitchHunt is lying about receiving the Cop/Lover card

If WitchHunt lied about his counter-claim, the whole thing is FUBAR. I think a shot-in-the-dark fake counter-claim is extremely unlikely for a townie, so I'm minimizing the possibility of this one. The downside of counter-claiming and having your claim disproven is so high, it makes no sense unless WitchHunt is unlynchable and has a partner to protect him through multiple days.

Possibility 2 seems simpler, and the one I believe. I think Jamie is scum or a threat to town.

Since we can't lynch him today, anyone game for a NL?

Why would we nl? Even lynching town, which I try to avoid more than others it seems, gives town more info than a nl. Why suggest this?

Because I'm bad at the mafias

I almost knee jerk voted ham for that. But I want to re read his posts. Won't be able to until tomorrow.

[quote="[url=http://community.ist.utl.pt/forums/view ... 99#p265999]hamfactorial » Mon Nov 10, 2014[/quote]
Possibility 3: WitchHunt is lying about receiving the Cop/Lover card

If WitchHunt lied about his counter-claim, the whole thing is FUBAR. I think a shot-in-the-dark fake counter-claim is extremely unlikely for a townie, so I'm minimizing the possibility of this one. The downside of counter-claiming and having your claim disproven is so high, it makes no sense unless WitchHunt is unlynchable and has a partner to protect him through multiple days.[/quote]
Are you saying you know WitchHunt is a townie?

Ugh sorry posting on phone. Screwed up the quote edit but I think it's clear.

Yeah, I see what you're trying to ask.

I don't know what WitchHunt's alignment is. Why do you think I know it?

I do want to point out Jamie didn't even really try to dispute my counter claim, which is probably a good thing because the Cop/Lover card was mine and I'd have fought him to the death for it. Nor did he try to point out he made a false claim and follow it up with an honest one, but even at this point I wouldn't believe the third card after that whole case. In my book he's anti town, not much to gain in pushing further on this since he can't be lynched, but that's my stance on him.

Stardust pointed out something that threw me off about choosing which Townie should absorb the supersaint, that's been talked up quite a bit so I'll move on to my 2 cents here.

I personally didn't read into Ham having an idea about my alignment at all from that post, I more noticed Raspy over here trying to push the same premise on Ham knows Stardust is town and making it Ham also knows WitchHunt is town. I'm getting the vibe of Raspy trying to stoke the flames of suspicion on Ham here.

Oh yeah, Jamie's scum, no question about that.

I can see what rcw is saying, and I think that if it was just that one sentence ("I think a shot-in-the-dark fake counter-claim is extremely unlikely for a townie") that yes, it would look like hammy knew you were town. But he's just listing the options.

I'm not 100% sure that's scum motivated though. What rcw is saying makes a little bit of sense, and I hardly want to attack people for asking questions. hammy's sent up a few red flags in the past couple pages - showing a strong tendancy of answering questions with questions, the no lynch thing, choosing me as the townie who needs to die - so there might be something there. I'll have to reread hammy when I get a chance, not that him flipping scum would clear rcw, of course.

Please re-read, case and vote me if you find my behavior or motivation scummy. I will gladly discuss anything you bring up.

I'm aware that my sour disposition as town screwed me in Lego mafia, so I'd like to work on being less caustic this game. It's not helpful to my teammates.

I do want to point out Jamie didn't even really try to dispute my counter claim, which is probably a good thing because the Cop/Lover card was mine and I'd have fought him to the death for it. Nor did he try to point out he made a false claim and follow it up with an honest one, but even at this point I wouldn't believe the third card after that whole case. In my book he's anti town, not much to gain in pushing further on this since he can't be lynched, but that's my stance on him.

Stardust pointed out something that threw me off about choosing which Townie should absorb the supersaint, that's been talked up quite a bit so I'll move on to my 2 cents here.

I personally didn't read into Ham having an idea about my alignment at all from that post, I more noticed Raspy over here trying to push the same premise on Ham knows Stardust is town and making it Ham also knows WitchHunt is town. I'm getting the vibe of Raspy trying to stoke the flames of suspicion on Ham here.

If someone has a pattern of scuminess I'm not going to ignore it just because I'm also under a little pressure. It's the same slip twice. Normally that's pretty telling but Stardust is right that there was more context I wasn't considering.

Is the day not over? I'm pretty sure it is a forced no-lynch, and we go to night.

can mod confirm?

I can confirm that I have not fucked anything up at this time.

WitchHunt is almost certainly Town. His counter claim was bold and it wasn't even refuted. I fully believe he had the Town Cop/Lover card. That means he either is town, or he's an anti-town or neutral cop.

If WitchHunt can demonstrate some kind of power usage Tomorrow, it'll completely clear him.

Stardust, I did an iso on Imopen like you wanted. You remember how I thought RCW was my biggest scum candidate? That was before the Jamie debacle, but anyway, now he's not even the #2. I think RCW's on to something with Imopen.

Look for yourself, there's not much there. 17 posts and they're all pretty short. There's no real pressure coming out of him, no questions. The most work he did was helping explain my push for claiming Town cards. At the time I was reading it as support for my plan and not much else.

Since then, I've rethought my plan. I think I made a mistake by pushing that on everyone. What we should have done is saved the question "What was your town card?" for our major scum suspects. Force them to commit to a card without knowing anyone else's. By forcing it on everyone at the same time, I did give scum the chance to see a few claims before they claimed something safe. Yeah, the seems to have caught Jamie. That's only because WitchHunt was meta enough to false claim a Lover card and leave his counterclaim option open. It was a bad plan and I apologize for it. (I don't want to point any fingers... yeah I do. It's Stardust's fault. He put all kinds of pressure on me and that was the best I could come up with. This is all besides the point.)

On the re-read of Imopen, this stood out:

This is a great idea, dechs. I want to see these discarded power claims

The way this is worded, Imopen wants to see the discarded powers claims. Not the Town Card claims. He is specifically interested in seeing what powers aren't available to Town.

A few posts later I suggested that everyone share the Town card they had. Then Imopen says this:

I feel like this somewhat limits our ability to counterclaim the four we pinpointed, but mine was town hider

He's caught on that it's a bad plan for the Town, he acknowledges that, and then complies with the plan anyway. It is a risk if he made up the Town Hider card, but it is why I was putting him in my Town pile. It could be that he's a Scum Hider. Another thing this post accomplishes is it helps push everyone else to claim.

The above quote also links to the next three. I see a very strong patter and I've cut out the text around the sentences to make it more obvious.

it's possible i'll be critical of him much sooner than that, but i understand what you're saying

hmm, idk if this is 100% true, but i like your mindset.

Stardust's claim is wonky, but probably true.

"This feels like a bad plan, but I'll go along with it anyway."
"He could be scum, but I'll agree with you putting him in Town pile."
"I don't think you're right, but I like where you're going."
"His claim doesn't feel right, but it's probably true."

Maybe this is just a speech pattern for Imopen and I'm looking into it too hard. What I'm seeing here, though, is a ton of non-committal statements. He's taking both sides of every issue to be able to appeal to everybody. I don't like it and my gut likes it less.

Vote Imopen

One more:

I'd much prefer RCW hammer, but w/e.

"Vocally, I'd prefer RCW hammered, but I'm not going to take an action that allows RCW to not hammer."

EDIT: Should read "...I'm going to take an action that..."

I had an extra "not" in there.

I'd like to take this moment to thank Jamie for allowing us the chance to catch two scum in one day.

I'm now going to be bored out of my mind while the rest of you sleep. If I'm lucky, Red will be around to have a conversation with.

Dechs I like your case on io2. I'll look into his posts tomorrow morning.

Also, at you painting me in a negative light for not liking your plan at the start.

i thought semantics weren't important to you, dechs?

my posts are short because i don't put a lot of thought into them. i post what i think and feel, and i follow the town when i'm indifferent.

btw, you've taken notice of the right pattern, but you've come to the wrong conclusion. but, like you say, you're a mafia noob, so i won't hold it against you.

i thought semantics weren't important to you, dechs?

When did I ever say that? This is Mafia. It's all about semantics.

btw, you've taken notice of the right pattern, but you've come to the wrong conclusion. but, like you say, you're a mafia noob, so i won't hold it against you.

You just did it again. Twice.