Dies to Removal

I don't see it that way. All your burn spells do roughly the same thing with the exception of SSkullcrack. Sure Duress has a few more targets but I think the effect on the matchup percentage is negligible. At least in the burn heavy list burning them to death without even getting in with a creature is a legitimate strategy.

I'd actually like to see how the matchup would change if you just sided out all your creatures minus Phoenix and just went all out with burn. It sure would make their keep with three removal spells in hand look pretty stupid.

I don't see it that way. All your burn spells do roughly the same thing with the exception of SSkullcrack. Sure Duress has a few more targets but I think the effect on the matchup percentage is negligible. At least in the burn heavy list burning them to death without even getting in with a creature is a legitimate strategy.

I'd actually like to see how the matchup would change if you just sided out all your creatures minus Phoenix and just went all out with burn. It sure would make their keep with three removal spells in hand look pretty stupid.

They'll just discard the removal to Pack Rats or Lotleth Troll and proceed to attack through without having to worry about defense, my information is gather from the other
1900+ grinders they don't believe B/x is a good MU - perhaps they're doing it wrong but I don't know. Keep in mind I also think the Burn variant is the best way to attack the meta right now, here is my updated list:

[deck]PyroBurn DtR Project[/deck]

I'm really liking it so far.

Can someone give me a tl;dr or what burn does that Walter White doesnt? These lists seem predicated on the assumption that Ash Zealot and Satyr are not going to deal 4 points of damage (since many of the decks are the same otherwise).

That's pretty much it, Ash and Satyr don't connect often enough which is why we're upping the burn count.

EDIT: Thanks Valdarith, I failed on this one.

I'm still of the firm opinion Chandra isn't good unless you have about 20 creatures to support her. First card I pulled out of the burn list. I'm liking toil // trouble a lot more than others, I guess.

I'm still of the firm opinion Chandra isn't good unless you have about 20 creatures to support her. First card I pulled out of the burn list. I'm liking toil // trouble a lot more than others, I guess.

Trouble's window of worth decreases rapidly, Toil does make it slightly better if your running B sources - but I rather deal with concrete abilities.

I'll repeat this again for those who missed it, Frost is better with Anger and 18 sources of R, if you want to run Reck - you should go for the pure burn version (no vaults but temples).

The only advantages PyroBurn has over pure burn is the ability to grind and win even if the top 6 cards are not enough.

Yeah Chandra's +1 is too powerful not to build around. It's definitely my favourite ability on the card.

Joe Demestrio made T16 at GP Albuquerque with this 61 card list - (more Burn than Pyro admittedly) I like the list a lot - runs Chandra and Assemble in the board (presumably for the MBD match up), no love for Spark Trooper though

Lazer - There's a big boros thread for that.

This guy is basically playing Pyrowhite, though with some very different choices. http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=60963

I don't see it that way. All your burn spells do roughly the same thing with the exception of SSkullcrack. Sure Duress has a few more targets but I think the effect on the matchup percentage is negligible. At least in the burn heavy list burning them to death without even getting in with a creature is a legitimate strategy.

I'd actually like to see how the matchup would change if you just sided out all your creatures minus Phoenix and just went all out with burn. It sure would make their keep with three removal spells in hand look pretty stupid.

They'll just discard the
removal to Pack Rats or Lotleth Troll and proceed to attack through without having to worry about defense, my information is gather from the other 1900+ grinders they don't believe B/x is a good MU - perhaps they're doing it wrong but I don't know. Keep in mind I also think the Burn variant is the best way to attack the meta right now, here is my updated list:

[deck]PyroBurn DtR Project[/deck]

I'm really liking it so far.

Can someone give me a tl;dr or what burn does that Walter White doesn't? These lists seem predicated on the assumption that Ash Zealot and Satyr are not going to deal 4 points of damage (since many of the decks are the same otherwise).

That's pretty much it, Ash and Satyr don't connect often enough which is why we're upping the burn count.

I'm curious, how are you sideboarding this? Mostly I'm wondering where you're bringing in Spark Troopers.

If Helios will allow me (going to pm him soon once I finish things up on my end), I'll update the Primer with the Pyroburn variant with SB plans, videos and strategies.

You can't discard removal to Lotleth Troll. And if we're to the point in the game where he can sit and discard to Pack Rat we're either about to win or have already lost.

[deck]PyroBurn DtR Project[/deck]

Vids:

Older list:
PyroBurn Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G3 vs Gr Devotion

Current list:
PyroBurn Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G4 vs RW Devotion
PyroBurn Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G5 vs BG Devotion

Seems like a 'best of both worlds' deck MDU

nice work

I was building a deck on the Big Boros thread to deal with the two top decks Bx and Ux Devotion and came up with a list which ended up just being PyroWhite with Dragons.
I completely rolled over MonoB, I'll post the vid sometime tomorrow.

I don't really have anytime left today, so I'll be happy if anyone wants to help me collect data on the lists effectiveness against field - but I theories that MonoU G1 (the critical game) is going to be MUCH smoother.

EDIT: I may change that Shock into [card]Last Breath[/
card], a singleton Last Breath should work better then an extra Rod of Ruin vs Blue and it hits all the same targets expect it also kills walls (with Dragons making up 4 dmg shouldn't be too hard).

I agree about the Last Breath Do you think this is a better MTGO meta call than PyroBurn?

The last two decks posted are interesting. The last 2 weeks at FNM, I've found myself boarding in Chained to the Rocks and more burn for most of the matches, so, I was planning on making that my MB plan. Now I've got more choices.

I don't really have anytime left today, so I'll be happy if anyone wants to help me collect data on the lists effectiveness against field - but I theories that MonoU G1 (the critical game) is going to be MUCH smoother.

Can someone remind me . . . what's the best format to test a deck's effectiveness. (And by best, I mean give the most accurate matchup results.) I'm assuming Standard 5-3-2-2?

If Helios will allow me (going to pm him soon once I finish things up on my end), I'll update the Primer with the Pyroburn variant with SB plans, videos and strategies.

That's fine, just make sure there is a clear separation between the two. Something as simple as a heading saying "Pyroburn Variants" with all of the info under that would be just fine.

I'm really loving the deck that MDU quoted over from the big boros thread. I love the idea of the more burny list, but still with some oomph at the top end...

I tried messing with it a little bit, mostly little things because of my metagame or personal preferences...

[deck]Lands 23
12 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr (very tempted to drop them for Zealot... I know turn 1 plays are important, but still...)
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Spells 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Others 8
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
4 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Act of Treason
1 Rod of Ruin
1 Burning Earth[/deck]

Thoughts?

4 Firedrinker Satyr (very tempted to drop them for Zealot... I know turn 1 plays are important, but still...)

With the Temples and the Mutavaults, Ash is frequently a turn three creature.

At that point, your opp could have already played Sylvan Caryatids, Frostburn Weirds, Dreg Manglers, can easily snuff Ash with a Tidebinder Mage, is a turn away from Jace or Supreme, could have played an Imposing Sovereign or have a Banisher Preist waiting, etc.

I just don't think you'll get see the value out of the card since the [mana]R[/mana][
mana]R[/mana] is so hard on the curve.

I've been testing the list Raida, haven't missed Ashley yet. Only tweak I've made so far is dropping the Rod for a second Last Breath.

Your tweaks seem fine if they are good for your meta

Hmm, i guess you're right, was just a thought. Another one is that I actually run 2 Mortars mainboard atm, and I kinda miss that, though chained does a lot of work too...

If i took something out for some mortars mb, what would you think? Swap 2 of them and the fotf's?

Simply take out whatever isn't as good as Mortars in your meta - if you run Mortars to kill Stormbreath swap out 2 Chains for example

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=149657#p149657:fb7x2npd]magicdownunder » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:35 pm[/url:fb7x2npd]":fb7x2npd]I was building a deck on the Big Boros thread to deal with the two top decks Bx and Ux Devotion and came up with a list which ended up just being PyroWhite with Dragons.

EDIT: I may change that [card:fb7x2npd]Shock[/card:fb7x2npd] into [card:fb7x2npd]Last Breath[/card:fb7x2npd], a singleton [card:fb7x2npd]Last Breath[/card:fb7x2npd] should work better then an extra [card:fb7x2npd]Rod of Ruin[/card:fb7x2npd] vs Blue and it hits all the same targets expect it also kills walls (with Dragons making up 4 dmg shouldn't be too hard).[/quote:fb7x2npd]

The list is excellent MDU What do you think of 2 Last Breaths and no Rod?

I watched the first vid, MDU, and the matchup went about as I expected. I would never have kept Skullcrack in vs them but you caught onto that after game two.

I'm beginning to think that Chandra really doesn't do anything in this deck. Sure, exiling an extra card every turn is an extremely powerful ability, but between all the burn and Chandra's Phoenix this deck has a ton of reach already. I think including Chandra is a case in diminishing returns. We're running fewer creatures in this deck so her threaten ability has less of a chance to shine where it's been brilliant in every other red deck we've brewed. I'd honestly rather play Hammer of Purphoros in her place. That gives all our creatures haste and makes EVERY card in our deck relevant.

With that in mind:

[deck=Valdarith's Boros Burn v1.2]
Creatures (16)
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Spells (21)
4
Shock
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Boros Charm
4 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
1 Hammer of Purphoros
2 Warleader's Helix

Lands (23)
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
2 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
10 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
2 Chained to the Rocks
4 Skullcrack
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Toil / Trouble
2 Warleader's Helix
1 Tajic, Blade of the Legion
[/deck]

Not much different than before. Chandra is out, and one Hammer is in the mainboard. Added a 23rd land and went down one Mutavault as well to up my untapped red sources to 14. That gives me 86.14% of an untapped red source in my opening hand which I happen to think is very important. The odds go down to 83.72% if I take out one Mountain and add a Mutavault.

I could go back down to 22 land and throw Chandra in as a one-of.

I'm beginning to think that Chandra really doesn't do anything in this deck. Sure, exiling an extra card every turn is an extremely powerful ability, but between all the burn and Chandra's Phoenix this deck has a ton of reach already. I think including Chandra is a case in diminishing returns. We're running fewer creatures in this deck so her threaten ability has less of a chance to shine where it's been brilliant in every other red deck we've brewed.

I agree. She can be harder to protect too with 8-12 cards only dinging players.

Please, let's not redo the Mutavault problem and try to cram her in every deck where she doesn't belong just because she's good everywhere else.

If the burn varient wants to run Chandra, drop almost
all the cards that don't protect Chandra or don't allow Chandra to win the game when she hits the board. Otherwise she's an even easier to kill Goblin Fireslinger. Is that where we want to be?

The hammer makes a lot of sense. This seems like the perfect place for it.

I've said it before, Chandra is great in a deck that is built to exploit her +1; otherwise she's mediocre. She's definitely not good in a creature-lite burn variant.

[deck=Zem's RDW Burn Hybrid]
Creatures
4 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Young Pyromancer

Burn
2 Flames of the Firebrand
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack

Lands
18 Mountain
4 Mutavault
[/deck]

Flames could be Mortars.

I've said it before, Chandra is great in a deck that is built to exploit her +1; otherwise she's mediocre. She's definitely not good in a creature-lite burn variant.

I like Chandra, Pyromaster, even in the burn variant - she has won me plenty of games.

I do understand why you guys want to cut her (she looks horrible in theory), but if you guys her a shot in 10 or so games you may understand that with vaults and burns it isn't hard to defend her (that said, its just a preference thing - I'm more comfortable running cards which can win me games on its own).

Not to mention, I'm running weirds and Anger while most of you are not....

- - - - - - - - - - - -

In regards to which deck is preferable in the
current MTGO meta game? I'll say the PyroWhite with Dragons, only because its near impossible to beat UW control with burn (no one plays that list IRL though, since its a clocking deck - burn is most likely safer IRL).

Do I think 2 Last breath is better then 1 Rod and 1 last? No, we're only running 2 dragons - if we hit both breaths and no dragons you may just lose to CA.

Thoughts on Mortars MD? We're focusing on beating a GP with the assumption that MonoU and Bx Devotion will be in force, thus for testing purposes I want to win with 4 chains in tack (if your local meta gaming, Mortars + chains is fine)

- - - - -- - - - - - -

Guys if you do like the vids, please wright a comment or like it, it helps me with traffic.

[quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=150133#p150133:29hb6ajo]magicdownunder » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:07 am[/url:29hb6ajo]":29hb6ajo][quote="[url=viewtopic.php?p=150116#p150116:29hb6ajo]zemanjaski » Tue Nov 26, 2013 11:00 am[/url:29hb6ajo]":29hb6ajo]I've said it before, Chandra is great in a deck that is built to exploit her +1; otherwise she's mediocre. She's definitely not good in a creature-lite burn variant.[/quote:29hb6ajo]

I like [card:29hb6ajo]Chandra, Pyromaster[/card:29hb6ajo], even in the burn variant - she has won me plenty of games.

I do understand why you guys want to cut her (she looks horrible in theory), but if you guys her a shot in 10 or so games you may understand that with vaults and burns it isn't hard to defend her (that said, its just a preference thing - I'm more comfortable running cards which can win me games
on its own).

Not to mention, I'm running weirds and Anger while most of you are not....
[/quote:29hb6ajo]

I tested her for about 8 hours worth of games before I gave her the ax because I would have liked her to be anything else. That was with Anger sideboard too. Anger came out shortly after when it went under the same test. I would run anger if a meta was heavy mono u and Gx devotion but unless that happens, I'd prefer to ride off Reckoner's coat tails.

That said, I think we're testing substantively different burn decks. I've been running 21 land, one drops + toil // trouble and I think you're on anger/mutavault/chandra/5 CC finisher. I personally want my deck to avoid going long so Chandra is awful there.

Off topic, cobbled together the cards I had while I wait for everything else to come in and took this to monday night standard, 17 players. Smaller group of people but all the decks are at least tier 2 instead of some of the casual stuff I see at the other store.

[deck]
Creatures
n4 firedrinker satyr
1 rakdos cackler
4 ash zealot
4 young pyromancer
4 chandra's phoenix

Removal
3 Chandra, Pyromaster
4 shock
2 flames of the firebrand
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet
2 chained to the rocks

Support
1 Pyromancer's Gauntlet
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Sideboard
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Boros Reckoner
2 Chained to the rocks
4 Skullcrack
2 Boros charm
1 Rod of ruin[/deck]

Tried to see if shop had any rakdos cacklers which they did not. I played a couple test games vs Orzhov lifegain midrange and got crushed. I should have taked notes but didn't so I'm trying to do this while memory is somewhat fresh.

Match 1 vs Jonny:

So, at this little card shop, I'm cursed to always play my friend first. He's playing a G/r devotion ramp deck of mainly smaller creatures. Domri, Xenagos, Garruk, etc.

Game 1 I mull to 4, he mulls to 6. I considered just punting the game but I had a decent start so played it out. After the 4th planeswalker, I ran out of gas and lost to satyr
tokens.

Game 2, -4 satyr, -1 cackler, -1 hammer, -1 Chandra, -1 gauntlet. bring in 2 chain, 4 reckoner, 2 mortar. He floods out pretty bad and I crush him. I see Nylea and witchstalker this game though which was valuable info.

Game 3, I board out two YP (can't defend vs the trample), bring in two boros charms. He gets a witchstalker, carytid, and a 5/5 reverent hunter (I had jet in hand to kill it in response to the trigger but was tapped out, story of my life vs this creature). On my side, I get in a reckoner and two ash zealots and I have plenty of burn in hand. I use the reckoner to apply pressure and scry into a boros charm which I put on top. I needed it next turn vs a clan defiance on the reckoner. He charges the 5/5 into my ash zealots + lightning strike. I slowly beat him down with the reckoner while he floods on lands and chump blockers.

2-1 (1-0)

Match 2 vs Matt (?)

Esper. Game 1 I start with Satyr/Ash Zealot/Hammer. He verdicts, I play YP, magma jet, and attack for 3. I
eventually get him to 9 when he taps out for Aetherling. Swing in, lose YP, take him to 4 and leave mana open for burn. He does nothing on his turn. I swing in again, lose the satyr, and take him to 1. He sphinxes, I jet. -2 shock, -2 chained, -2 flames, +2 boros charm, +4 skullcrack.

Game 2, I spend a couple turns using Satyr, Zealots, and vaults killing off Jaces. Resolve hammer again which gets dsphered again and then run him over.

4-1 (2-0)

Match 3 vs Andrea

An odd dega build. I find out later it's something someone made and wanted her to test and it's only half finished. Deck builder didn't like chained to the rocks which worked for me. Mainboarded reckoners, sin collector, etc. Very little removal at all. Was odd.

I honestly remember little of game 1 beyond cards played and me winning. I board a bit heavy as burn as I'm expecting her to board heavy into removal based on asking me if Mutavault is considered mono colored. -4 ash zealot -4 satyr, -1 cackler, -1 hammer, -2 shock, +4
skullcrack, +2 mortar, + 4 reckoner, +2 chained.

Game 2, I have two Chandra in hand + Gauntlet as I'm slowly jetting her, she's shocking herself, and I poke her a vault to 12. She plays a reckoner which I ignore and ping him only with Chandra. She sin collectors a jet out of my hand, which dies. She ajani's reckoner to 4 and defends since I have a 1/1 cackler to block. I top deck the 5th land I already have set up from a previous jet, slam Gauntlet, and get her to 8 and she finds a way to kill her. she plays BBV, I reveal two shocks and skullcrack for a total of 13.

6-1 (3-0)

Match 4, intentional draw. I'm top seed into top 8.

Top 8 match - Esper vs a woman's name I didn't get. I'm a jerk. Both games I start with Satyr/Zealot. Game 1 she gets stuck on 3 lands and dies. Game 2, she gets a single jace which dies to satyr pumps, a celestial flare that I sac'd a phoenix to while I waited for burn, and not much else. I skullcrack a sphinx for 2, and another to finish her off later. Pretty much
a bye. She's quiet but polite. I get the trash talk from a good chunk of the rest of the store about going red so I don't have to play magic. They were half kidding? There were 5 esper players there tonight.

8-1

Anyway, it's 11:45 and we watch a match play vs the dega build and a G/r devotion where both sides are making some bad mistakes. G/r manages to take it.

One guy wants to leave, the other two don't care, and I go ahead and choose to split because two of the top four are midrange R/g devotion decks and I don't feel like risking it. $16 split, picked up some cards for casual, chatted a bit about MTGO sucking balls right now until they get the software fixed, and more talk about Chain being bad right now because of G/B seeing a rise with bramblecrush, golgari charm, etc.

Hooking up with them to split for a hotel room for GP dallas in a couple weeks. I really need to get my damn cards in and test the burn deck I actually want to play.

[deck=MDU's PyroDragon]Lands 23
11 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 18
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
2 StormBreath Dragon

Instances 11
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock

Others 8
4 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Flames of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Boros Reckoner
3 Skullcrack
2 Act of Treason
2 Peak Eruption
1 Rod of Ruin (eighth edition)
1 Last Breath[/deck]

I put this deck through a few 8-Mans and 2-Mans (seems to be infested with Bx Devotion today)

Here are some vids with SB plans:

PyroDragon Experiment (2-Man) + Commentary: G1 vs Bx Devotion
Standard Elimination G2: PyroDragon vs Bx Devotion (Event 6312837)

I may change [card:
2cc1p0jt]Peak Eruption[/card] for Boros Charm to combat decay and sweeper spells.

^ MDU we're at the same place again hahaha. Great minds redbro.

I may shamelessly steal this list without putting any work into it.

Black Friday, apparently there's a tourney where top 8 gets things like playsets of master of waves, thassa's etc. depending on where you place at. Happening.

Also, just watched the mono-black video, you could have played more aggressively. If you knock him to 1, he can't use underworld connections anymore. Also, when he cast nightveil spector, you could have lightning struck him, act of treason'd the spector and swung for lethal. That line would have been WAY riskier, though the percentages of him having the Ult Price or doom blade is lower then him not having it. You can probably deduce that his last card wasn't a removal spell based on how the previous turns played out and I'm pretty sure he drew the Ult price off of connections since he kept the card on top of his library from scry and didn't cast anything gamebreaking the next turn.

At least, that's what my inner darkest_mage is telling me.

where at LP?

Gah, your right LP, of the Fires.

I think I'm just scared of used Act on nightveil spector, since I had someone use the Gary they ripped from it to beat me before...

I was actually gonna PM you Vundo, but didn't feel like digging through the thread hence me just posting it here.

MTG Deals, San Gabriel. I think entry is like 10 bucks. There's also gonna be a team sealed event this weekend I think where winning team gets foil red, white, and Blue god along with a box.

MDU's PyroDragon

/.../

I put this deck through a few 8-Mans and 2-Mans (seems to be infested with Bx Devotion today)

13 triggers for 4 YP. Do they still generate enough value for you? I´m at 3 YP at 15 in my black splash which feels alright, but still he turns into the occasional chump blocker (or Tymaret ammo...).

Great videos again, MDU. Nice to see the deck preying so well on monoblack. When they're scrabbling to draw removal you know you're doing something right!

Also, when your phone went off I went searching for my own because you have the exact same ringtone and I thought someone was calling me!

Opinion: vs Control 4x Skullcrack + 2x Boros Charm or 3x Skullcrack + 3x Boros Charm? I'm still tuning my Sideboard plan .