Dies to Removal

If anyone else would be willing to do the same and report back, or even offer an opinion on my analysis, that would be appreciated. This is my favourite kind of testing.

More than happy to test this - I'd run Temple of Enlightenment for added psych if I had one I like this type of testing too though I don't get in as many games as you so my sample will likely be smaller

I've actually played a list with vaults and 8 scry lands for awhile (but I was forcing SBD in a B, R and U meta, it was good for blue... not so much for black...) I didn't keep any data, but I believe Elricity had some notes on his FNM testing.

Actually, LP happen to have tested the list as well (his version had 3x vaults and 7 scry over my 2x vaults and 8 scry) he may still have data.... though I should note this was awhile back....

[deck]
Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Satyr Firedancer
2 Stormbreath Dragon

Other Spells
4 Boros Charm
2 Searing Blood
4 Lightning Strike
3 Magma Jet
4 Shock
4 Warleader's Helix
2 Chained to the Rocks

Land
4 Temple of Triumph
4 Sacred Foundry
3 Mutavault
1 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence
9 Mountain
[/deck]

Its quite amusing that we were building these deck while guessing how BnG would warp the format.

Anyhow, I posted LP suggested list (its still quite good) - just change the Dancer into Ash and
SBD into Jet + Blood or Chains.

- - - - -

If I can find it again we had this list which had a major finish running YP$, Phoenixes, Vaults extra scry lands and pretty much all the same spells MD (except blood since it wasn't in the format) with MD Chandra.

Kinda wish I kept at the archetype now, but I wanted too create a fringe deck like RB Aggro and Hexproof

New here and wanted to share tournament results. Here is what I ran for a nearby GPT:
[deck]
Lands
9 Mountain
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault

Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Ash Zealot
3 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
3 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard
1 Blind Obedience
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Satyr Firedancer
1 Young Pyromancer
1 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
1 Spark Trooper
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Glare of Heresy
4 Rakdos Cackler
[/deck]

Match 1 vs. Dimir Control [2-0]
Game 1: Kept a sketchy hand with a mountain, 2 mutavaults, 2 guildgates, ash zealot and chained. He shocked himself and thoughtseized ash zealot away, killed him on turn 4 with his first play being a Jace on T4.

Sideboarding: -1 Skullcrack, -3 Chained, -3 Shock, +4 Cackler, +1 Chandra, +1
Assemble

Game 2: Kept a hand with Sacred Foundry, 2 Helix, Cackler, assemble, mountain and a mutavault. He had a ratchet bomb that I think he wanted to use to deal with the cackler since it was bashing for 3 turns unblocked before I cast assemble. Cackler dealt 8 before it got stonewalled by a prognostic sphinx. Overran him with soldiers soon after.

Match 2 vs. Mono Black [2-1]
Game 1: Kept a good hand with temple, mountain, chained, ash zealot, YP, jet and a strike. T5 kill.

Sideboarding: -3 Shock, + 1 YP, + 1 Chained, +1 Assemble

Game 2: Kept a hand with 2 temples, guildgate, mountain, jet, strike and a helix. Misplayed by not striking his specter and rat when he was tapped out and at 11 life.

Game 3: Mulled into 2 mountains, a phoenix and 3 chained. Ripped a temple and phoenix off the top and sorta got there by chaining anything he had that flied and bashed in with double phoenixes.

Match 3 vs. Mono-Black Aggro [1-2]
Got paired down against the store owner.
Game 1: Kept a slow hand of
2 temples, 2 charm, 1 YP and 2 chained. Misplayed by scrying away a mountain after having 3 lands and no 4cc cards, essentially making the chained a dead card. Stablized with YP and finally drew a chained but he dropped a marauder for the win.

Sideboarding: +1 Spark Trooper, +1 BO, +1 Chained, +2 Mortars, +1 YP, -4 Skullcrack, -2 Boros Charm

Game 2: This was a weird game with me mulling to 5 and him keeping a 1 lander with 2 heroes and thoughtseize. I sorta got there as he was stuck on 1 land for too long.

Game 3: Kept a loose hand with mutavault, charm, helix, 2 ash zealots, foundry and spark trooper and never drew another land.

Match 4 vs. RB Devotion [2-1]
Game 1: Kept a slow hand consisting of 2 temple, guildgate, foundry, mutavault and double chained. Saw frostburn weird and tried to keep his devotion low to prevent me getting returned for a million. Eventually got killed by a dragon after a return stripped my hand clean.

Sideboarding: +1 Spark Trooper, +1 BO, +1 Chained, +2 Mortars, +1
YP, +1 Firedancer, -3 Shock, -4 Skullcrack

Game 2: Kept a hand with guildgate, temple, mountain, mutavault, YP, helix and chained. YP made 4 tokens and stabilized before he decided to off it with a magma jet. Played another YP and demolished his board when he swung in with his team and i used boros charm to make my team indestructible. Eventually burned him out.

Game 3: Kept a hand with trooper, foundry, 2 ash zealot, helix, mutavault and charm. Drew a sacred foundry off the top and swung with zealot for 4 damage. He returned me twice to pick off everything but trooper in hand, swung with the trooper when he was tapped out and got there.

Round 5 vs. Bant Midrange [2-1]
Game 1: Opponent was using a homebrew but I pegged him as a control build with Kiora and such. Kept a slow hand with 2 mountains, 2 foundry, guildgate, mutavault and a phoenix. Died to a turn 4 and turn 5 Advent of the Wurm.

Sideboarding: Noticed the opponent cut down on removal for extra flexibility in charms so +2 Mortars, +2
Glare, +1 Chained, +1 Firedancer, +1 YP, -3 Shock, - 4 Ash Zealot
Cut Ash zealot due to Advent of the Wurm, still dunno if this was correct though

Game 2: Kept a hand with 2 mutavault, temple, mortars, jet and a charm. Mortared his t3 brimaz, chained his second brimaz and glared his brimaz again when he sphered my chained. Drew a skull crack and denied him life off his rev for 4. He flashed in a wurm and tried to use azo charm for life but a second skullcrack did him in.

Game 3: Kept a hand with temple, mutavault, firedancer, 2 skullcrack, strike, jet. The firedancer did so much work in this game by controlling his board. Handled his t3 brimaz with a charm, t4 wurm with skullcrack and jet and killed his knight when i skullcracked him in response to a desperate revelation for 2. Eventually killed him with mutavault.

Got in top 8 with 1st in standings and feeling pretty good about the deck since 3 out of 8 were running burn.
Quarters vs. BW midrange [1-2]
Game 1: Kept a hand with temple, guildgate,
2 mountain, helix, phoenix and ash zealot. Killed him by turn 5

Sideboarding: -4 Ash Zealot, -3 Shock, +2 Glare, +2 Mortars, +1 BO, +1 Assemble, +1 YP

Game 2: Kept a hand with 2 chained, phoenix, mountain, jet, helix and guildgate. Cringed a little at his turn 4 whip and turn 5 Obzedat. Didn't get there.

Game 3: Mulled a one-lander into guildgate, double foundry, mountain, jet and skullcrack. He played a demon on turn 4 and a whip on turn 5. I skullcracked for a turn but then he dropped me to 6 and dropped an Obzedat on the last turn.

After this, probably cutting Blind Obedience or a shock for some wear//tear for whips, spheres and the occasional 'staff of the X magus'if they ever pick up on popularity. Please comment on how I played if I made a mistake at some point. Will continue to test this deck until JOU comes at the very least.

Fuuuuck, just got knocked out of the daily by Staff of the Death Magus... Next turn, he untaps, duress's my warleaders helix (gains 5), downfalls my Chandra (gains 1 + infinity pings), turn after plays swamp underworld removal spell into swamp gray merchant.

Literally cannot beat that card, should I play 2 Revoke side?

I know this is a slight bit off-subject and that I haven't followed the burn deck a huge amount, but I had a thought. I remember MDU having a test list for dega/barely-dega burn post-spoiler but pre-release.

What is the viability of that? We saw one of the gp top 8 lists splash black for toil//trouble, but what about taking it a bit further? Blood baron would be fairly effective in the mirror (lifelink is awesome, and if they burn it out, it's usually a two-for-1, especially game 1), and exava is a pretty dang good beater. You also get toil//trouble and even rakdos's return out of the side. Mutavault might have to be cut to make the mana work, which would suck, but it might be an interesting thing to try again...

Not at all viable.

That was simple.

It isn't a deck you can just pick up and play well. I make a LOT of mistakes and i've probably played more matches with the deck than anyone, anywhere. I'd argue its the hardest deck to play with technical acumen in the format.

I completely agree. It's not an autopilot deck like Mono U or smash mouth like G/R Monsters. I see playing burn (especially this version with so few creatures) as a fencing artist. Fine precise moves, surgically picking apart your opponent. Very control-esque at times, but aggressive. Aggressive control.

Will now commence testing with Temple of Silence and report data on that selection. I will be especially interested to see how many, if any, games it costs me when I am on the 1-drop plan.

Temple of Silence plays really nice with Blind Obedience and is less risky when playing Cacklers.

@ mr metronome. consider wear/tear for versatility.

Fuuuuck, just got knocked out of the daily by Staff of the Death Magus... Next turn, he untaps, duress's my warleaders helix (gains 5), downfalls my Chandra (gains 1 + infinity pings), turn after plays swamp underworld removal spell into swamp gray merchant.

Literally cannot beat that card, should I play 2 Revoke side?

If the don't board in Death Magus, you can always use Revoke to kill their Underworld Connections.

EDIT: But yeah, why not Wear/Tear.

Had this hand come up in a local tournament yesterday, and before saying whether I kept or mulled I'd like to hear what you all would do and why.

EDIT: Sorry, context: It was game 1 against unknown opponent and I was on the draw.

Mutavault
Ash Zealot
Warleader's Helix
2x Temple of Triumph
Boros Guildgate
Sacred Foundry

Ok thanks for the responses to this, folks. Looks like everybody but Zem would mull this hand.

Here's what I did.

I kept.

Turns out my opponent was on G/R monsters (not Jund). Even through 2 temples I only drew 1 non-land card, which was another Warleader's Helix. He played 1 Caryatid and 2 Dragons that game, but with Zealot and Mutavault I still got him to 8 before he won. Which means if just a few of the
millions of land cards I drew were spells, I could have won that game.

Variance.

Why I kept: Yes, either of those cards could have been taken if he was on T1 Thoughtseize plan, but those are 2 powerful spells in this deck and in addition to that I had a Mutavault and 2 opportunities to Scry. Having a Sacred Foundry means I had both the white source (actually had plenty of that) and a Mountain for Chains. And I had the mana to cast anything, including the Warleader's in my opener or the other 3 should I draw them (drew 1).

I know this is a slight bit off-subject and that I haven't followed the burn deck a huge amount, but I had a thought. I remember MDU having a test list for dega/barely-dega burn post-spoiler but pre-release.

What is the viability of that? We saw one of the gp top 8 lists splash black for toil//trouble, but what about taking it a bit further? Blood baron would be fairly effective in the mirror (lifelink is awesome, and if they burn it out, it's usually a two-for-1, especially game 1), and exava is a pretty dang good beater. You also get toil//trouble and even rakdos's return out of the side. Mutavault might have to be cut to make the mana work, which would suck, but it might be an interesting thing to try again...

Blood Baron while an
interesting idea is not high impact enough. The deck benefits from playing at instant speed and even if we do tap out on our turn it's normally for cards that hit the board running. If we are tapping out for 5 mana we are probably playing Stormbreath Dragon. Even than most of us around here are not playing the dragon.

Had this hand come up in a local tournament yesterday, and before saying whether I kept or mulled I'd like to hear what you all would do and why.

EDIT: Sorry, context: It was game 1 against unknown opponent and I was on the draw.

Mutavault
Ash Zealot
Warleader's Helix
2x Temple of Triumph
Boros Guildgate
Sacred Foundry

Ok thanks for the responses to this, folks. Looks like everybody but Zem would mull this hand.

Here's what I did.

I kept.

Turns out my opponent was on G/R monsters (not Jund). Even through 2 temples I only drew 1 non-land card, which was another
Warleader's Helix. He played 1 Caryatid and 2 Dragons that game, but with Zealot and Mutavault I still got him to 8 before he won. Which means if just a few of the millions of land cards I drew were spells, I could have won that game.

Variance.

Why I kept: Yes, either of those cards could have been taken if he was on T1 Thoughtseize plan, but those are 2 powerful spells in this deck and in addition to that I had a Mutavault and 2 opportunities to Scry. Having a Sacred Foundry means I had both the white source (actually had plenty of that) and a Mountain for Chains. And I had the mana to cast anything, including the Warleader's in my opener or the other 3 should I draw them (drew 1).

I would have probably kept too . . . with 2 scry lands and a Mutavault, it's definitely not a complete bomb, and it does have to be weighed against the probability of drawing a 0- or 1-land hand on the mulligan (25%)

Zem why go back to drinkers?? I was actually likeing Cacklers in the mbc match up.

Hey, Montu, do you live in Tampa or something? Or do you just really love the Montu at Busch Gardens?

I'm a coaster fanatic . . . my best year I rode 86 different roller coasters.

Montu is my favorite.

I once flew to Tampa (from Cincinnati) just for the day to ride roller coasters.

That's awesome. I once rode the Kumba (my favorite) 8 times in a row without even getting off of it. It was a really slow day that day so they just let me stay on. Of
course I barfed afterwards and I couldn't walk straight for about a half hour, but I'd do it again in a second if I could.

That's awesome. I once rode the Kumba (my favorite) 8 times in a row without even getting off of it. It was a really slow day that day so they just let me stay on. Of course I barfed afterwards and I couldn't walk straight for about a half hour, but I'd do it again in a second if I could.

Nice!

I did that on the Tennessee Tornado (at Dollywood) . . . rode it 22 times in a row without getting off . . . took about an hour and 15 minutes. It inverts 3 times and peaks at 3.7 Gs (about the same as Kumba). I was pukey for hours. It's just one of those thing you gotta do if you have the opportunity.

I am going to run a modified version of Sherwin Pu's deck through the gauntlet and see how it feels ~ may as well be sure right?

Changes are:
maindeck ~ switch to the tried and tested and Zem approved 3 Shock, 3 Searing Blood, 3 Chained to the Rocks
sideboard ~ cut the two Burning Earth which are awful, replace with 2 Assemble the Legion for MBC; switch Blind Obedience for Mizzium Mortars (hits way more matchups) and with the spare slot, grab a Glare of Heresy.

Sounds like a good plan to me Z

EDIt - I don't think you need 2 MM with 4 Dancer in the SB

I am going to run a modified version of Sherwin Pu's deck through the gauntlet and see how it feels ~ may as well be sure right?

Changes are:
maindeck ~ switch to the tried and tested and Zem approved 3 Shock, 3 Searing Blood, 3 Chained to the Rocks
sideboard ~ cut the two Burning Earth which are awful, replace with 2 Assemble the Legion for MBC; switch Blind Obedience for Mizzium Mortars (hits way more matchups) and with the spare slot, grab a Glare of Heresy.

Same mana as before?

Yeah running his mana base, will report back on that too.

I'm looking forward to hearing the results. I ran a mana base before very close to his, minus a 2 or 3 lands. That wasn't when burn was a thing. I wonder if the shock lands will become an issue in the mirror? Plus it's more susceptible to BE. I personally like the add black resource, it opens up a whole new world of cards for SB and maybe 1 or 2 in the main. Just think what a Rakdos Return in the mirror would mean?

The only thing that makes me hesitant, is that the deck is so fluid and consistent now, adding those other lands might clog it up and slow it down.

*EDIT He did place 2nd in a burn heavy environment, so that has to say something.

This Mocs showed really interesting decklist that arent popular yet.

GB Agro/Midrange (Troll, varolz, polukranos, gift of orzhova + efficient B and BG removal,
naya hexproof,
UW control with archangel of thune (went 2nd).

Of course, we've all probably seen a lot of Naya Hexproof. (Too much . . .)

I've also run into the GB aggro with gift of orzhova (just once) lately and UW control with archangel of thune (twice). Keep an eye out, because of you don't know they could be coming, you can get hosed fast.

@RaidaTheBlade: Manabase was horrible, thus making the deck horrible - Junk, Esper and Jund work because they have ramp and/or a clear focus on colors (+ they apply pressure earlier unlike Dega Burn) you can try and make Dega Aggro/midrange work but I think you'll find that just running Junk would be better.

@Mr. Metronome: You can run Assembles or more creatures, staff = less threats / removal = more time for Assembles or Creatures to take over.

Definitely going to have to go to 2 Assembles to deal with the increase of life gain. Young Pyromancer is also becoming better and better. Only issue is Bile Blight, but one thing to note is the fact that almost all of Blacks answers to our stuff are Duress, and Lifegain. YP gets around both. And Yuuya cut down to 1 Bile Blight, and that will be the meta deck for now

I think a sideboard looking like the following is the right way to go for the future:

[deck]
4 Blood Crypt
5 Mountain
4 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

4 Chandra's Phoenix
3 Young Pyromancer

4 Boros Charm
3 Chained to the Rocks
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
2 Toil // Trouble
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chained to the Rocks
4 Firedrinker Satyr
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Satyr Firedancer
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Wear //
Tear
1 Young Pyromancer
[/deck]

How does that look? Wear // Tear hits more things than Glare does, cuz really we dont care about Elspeth or Archangel to hit with, and Whip/Staff and D-Sphere are the big things for us

Only issue is Bile Blight . . .

And with Assemble, all they can do is clear the board for 1 turn.

Right so if they use Bile Blight on YP, it only clears the way for Assemble.

All the more reason to run it

Why the move back to Firedancer?

If everyone goes Staff crazy and it becomes a problem, then Wear/Tear will be seeing some work. If the mana base from Wu's burn deck works, it's feasible that Erebos could be a side board option. The card drawing would be welcomed too versus control.

Why the move back to Firedancer?

Starting point. We can practice a transition later

If everyone goes Staff crazy and it becomes a problem, then Wear/Tear will be seeing some work. If the mana base from Wu's burn deck works, it's feasible that Erebos could be a side board option. The card drawing would be welcomed too versus control.

I think I like Revoke Existence better if we're going for artifact removal. It can also handle Gods.

One thing to keep in mind for the MBC match ups, if they bile blight your tokens, you can shock / blow up the token in response to save the rest. May not matter a good number of games, but if your assemble is pumping out a lethal set of soldiers and they blight you looking to wipe them out, this could win the game for you.

If everyone goes Staff crazy and it becomes a problem, then Wear/Tear will be seeing some work. If the mana base from Wu's burn deck works, it's feasible that Erebos could be a side board option. The card drawing would be welcomed too versus control.

I think I like Revoke Existence better if we're going for artifact removal. It can also handle Gods.

You have a valid point, but I personally don't see many Gods that would need an answer as long as we are doing what we need too. Being able to instantly destroy an artifact or enchantment
before any life is gained, fits with the theme of the deck better and utilizes our mana more efficiently, imo.

I'm really not worried about not being able to remove Staff at instant speed. You can always Skullcrack in response to it being cast if you really feel the need.

EDIT: I'd also not want either Erebos or Thassa sticking around long. Ephara is a pain too, and Xenegos God is a PITA.

Its a fringe deck, but how are you guys dealing with G Devotion? It looks like a uphill battle, it doesn't help that its dead cheap to build and has placed well in two PE (6-1). . .

Its a fringe deck, but how are you guys dealing with G Devotion? It looks like a uphill battle, it doesn't help that its dead cheap to build and has placed well in two PE (6-1). . .

Seems like Anger of the Gods would smack it down hard if it gains popularity.

If big creatures start to become an issue Boros Reckoner and pacifism are good answers.

If anyone else would be willing to do the same and report back, or even offer an opinion on my analysis, that would be appreciated. This is my favourite kind of testing.

I did have an FNM were I had 2 vaults/1 temple I think that I had a review on but no specific notes on whether I would have preferred the temple to be something else or not. I had been using temples of silence over mutavaults last week before I got around to buying the mutavaults but that's not quite the same test either.

I want to say from just general experience though that the temples were less valuable than the vaults. That said, I was a lot worse at scrying a couple months back and no mutavaults is obviously a lot worse than mutavaults + X.

If I get some time this
week, which is a bit unlikely, I wouldn't mind trying out two gate/1 silence/3 vault because I do like that 11th white source based on no empirical data whatsoever.

I take it that your opponents wised up to the cackler plan in the mirror?