[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[redthirst]

New preorder price on the Phoenix: $5.00

It's another Vexing Devil.

Hardly.

worth it at $5?

Beats me.
.. I don't think it's going to do Thundermaw-level price shit, but $5.00 is probably okay. I just figure I can probably get them from the people at the LGS for that or less since everyone seems to think it's garbage.

[photodyer]

The $1 Phoenixes floored me...I grabbed 16 to cover my son, windstrider (he's too busy preparing for Dude 2.0 to be watching price lists), my set and trades. I don't know if it was a mistake or just them deciding to get things started hot, but I'll take it. I figure it balances my stupidity for buying into Mogis at $10 (even though I'm not alone in my foolishness).

Interestingly, Hero of Iroas is failing to move at $2; he will likely drop later today unless the trend changes.

[redthirst]

The $1 Phoenixes floored me...I grabbed 16 to cover my son, windstrider (he's too busy preparing for Dude 2.0 to be watching price lists), my set and trades. I don't know if it was a mistake or just them deciding to get things started hot, but I'll take it. I figure it balances my stupidity for buying into Mogis at $10 (even though I'm not alone in my foolishness).

Interestingly, Hero of Iroas is failing to move at $2; he will likely drop later today unless the trend changes.

About ready to hook up your good buddy redthirst?

[Khaospawn]

The $1 Phoenixes floored me...I grabbed 16 to cover my son, windstrider (he's too busy preparing for Dude 2.0 to be watching price lists), my set and trades. I don't know if it was a mistake or just them deciding to get things started hot, but I'll take it. I figure it balances my stupidity for buying into Mogis at $10 (even though I'm not alone in my foolishness).

Interestingly, Hero of Iroas is failing to move at $2; he will likely drop later today unless the trend changes.

About ready to hook up your good buddy redthirst?

And the loveable Khaos?

[Valdarith]

I would have grabbed four playsets at that price. At worst it will stay around $1. That's a good buy.

[hamfactorial]

Disregard Phoenix, acquire plane tickets to play in the GP with me and LP.

[redthirst]

Your tickets cost $1.00?

Also, yeah, these should be easy to pick up at the prerelease - the popular opinion is that it's unplayable garbage.

[Link]

Fanatic of Xenagos looks like sex as hell


Now THATS something worth T2ing that isn't Domri

[Wraith223]

The Phoenix is ok in my opinion, but it feels Vexing Devil light with the choice never in your favor (unless facing nuubs). It definately does not apear mythic to me and a previous poster was right about it making mythic for limited. I am not pre-ordering this guy as the oppenent choice just ruins it. A 3/3 is still good, and Exeva combo is very situational. Modern play seems very unlikely as Path and many other great removal is heavily used. If it had pro-something; I would have been thrilled. This ain't no Thundermaw as some will think. You will be wanting that 5/5 but UW will take 3 and say Dentention Sphere. Boooooo! GW will generally aggree to to 5/5 to charm it awat for good. Boooooo! Thus I call it a bad luck creature. Which is better at 4 mana: the phoenix or Chandra? Something to think about in terms of cmc investment and combo. This fits better in RB or RG (maybe) aggro kill to overrun removal choices.

Mogis,
God of Slaughter is a yawn as Redthirst put it. It's another sub par Comander card. 2 damage every tun is nifty for limited, but slow against reds enemy against GW and UW life gain. NO pre-order in my opinion. If it was creature or player; I would have been impressed.

[redthirst]

Vexing Devil was an 0-for-1 99% of the time.

Phoenix is never an 0-for-1. It's not the same.

[GoblinWarchief]

I don't like the phoenix... giving opponents choices is always bad ; the best card of this kind is still vexing devil just because it costs 1. Early in the game, often opponents are forced to take 4 because they don't have answers to a 4/3 body ... he is quite good in a burn deck (not in a deck that relies on creatures).

Mogis is ok for edh i suppose.... i wish the can't gain life ability was printed on mogis rather than erebos, so that mogis could have been be a decent substitute of sulfuric vortex for modern.

[rcwraspy]

phoenix at $7.99 already on SCG. No thanks. My guess is it's going to be casual fodder for a while, which keeps the price up a bit, but it will dip after the first couple of tournaments in the new format if it doesn't make a big splash.

[hamfactorial]

My favorite thing about the new Phoenix is that I can troll people with "dies to Nefarious Burn"

[redthirst]

the best card of this kind is still vexing devil

Ugh... what's lower than the blaklanner tier?

[Wraith223]

Vexing Devil was an 0-for-1 99% of the time.

Phoenix is never an 0-for-1. It's not the same.

Agreed, as I call it "vexing devil light". The oppenant choice still sucks enough that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth (insert joke here). It is still 3/3 body, but at 4 cmc; I am skeptical for it seeing enough play to be worthy of pre-order.

[Khaospawn]

Here's my opinion on the Phoenix -

A 5/5 Flier for 4 is pretty good. But is it good enough? Sure, a flying Deadbridge Goliath could "get there", but I'm not going to be able to attack with until turn 5. In that time, it could be killed by a D-Sphere, Chained to the Rocks, Selesnya Charm, Doom Blade, or Ultimate Price. I think I'd almost rather play with Stormbreath Dragon since it dodges most of that removal. However, the Big Bird does not die to Mortars, which I guess is nice.

I don't expect it to be a 3/3 flying with haste too much, if not ever. If I get that, most likely my opponent will have an answer for it. My opponent may take 3, but it can still be dealt with. All it would take is the having a big locker in the air, like Stormbreath Dragon, Desecration Demon, or something hideous with Reach.

Ultimately, when I look at my 4-drop slot, I don't think I would want to be playing with anything less
than Chandra in a burn-aggro deck or Purphoros in a big-mana deck. Or even Exava in a R/b deck. Shit, even Fanatic of Mogis would probably be more lethal under the right circumstances.

I'm kind of turned off by the fact that my opponent gets to decide for me what I'll end up getting. Because of that, it's often difficult to make the most optimized play when in these situations. You guys know what I like and how I play - I value consistency and strength over big plays and random blowouts. The bird doesn't exactly fit those criteria.

So while the card doesn't exactly suck, it'll never exactly be what I always want it to be. I may get it, I may not. I'm definitely not saying it's terrible or that it won't ever be good. Remember when Stonewright was barely playable before RTR? Remember when Desecration Demon was unplayable until Theros hit? Hell, the entire new set hasn't been spoiled yet, so the bird may get some weird, synergistic card with it that will make it bonkers.

But here's one
thing, guys, Hammer of Purphoros will make the bird better - that I know of. So maybe there will be hope for it. I'm not jumping on the hype train or the hate train in the meantime.

tl;dr - It's alright. Hammer of Purphoros makes the card better.

[RaidaTheBlade]

The $1 Phoenixes floored me...I grabbed 16 to cover my son, windstrider (he's too busy preparing for Dude 2.0 to be watching price lists), my set and trades. I don't know if it was a mistake or just them deciding to get things started hot, but I'll take it. I figure it balances my stupidity for buying into Mogis at $10 (even though I'm not alone in my foolishness).

Interestingly, Hero of Iroas is failing to move at $2; he will likely drop
later today unless the trend changes.

About ready to hook up your good buddy redthirst?

And the loveable Khaos?

The narwhal also desires phoenixes ;P
I mean, I even did a snazzy photoshop of it ;-;

Nah, as much as I'd like to have them for a ptq feb 15th, I should be able to manage. That or just use some tradeins to grab 'em. I still have some left overs from r/w that I don't really wanna trade, but I can.

[redthirst]

Back you leeches! I was leeching first!

[Wraith223]

Good review Khaos. I always look at the pre-order targets as whether they win games on their own without situational help, cheap cmc, do new/weird stuff (Voice of Resurgence), and are outclassed by current cards. Smaller set and Red makes it a plus, but the other are not there. Need 3-4 of my points to line up to be pre-order material. Unknown Bonus has yet to show besides devotion, Hammer (Khaos point), and Exeva

Desecration Demon was awsome to me when I first saw it. Cheap cmc for a 6/6, cool newish ability (forces scrifice on maybe hexproof dudes), was not to badly out classed with flying. Downsides were big sets and outclassed in modern. The unknown bonus was devotion to black. I also got them for a $1.50 each.

[Khaospawn]

Desecration Demon was awsome to me when I first saw it. Cheap cmc for a 6/6, cool newish ability (forces scrifice on maybe hexproof dudes), was not to badly out classed with flying. Downsides were big sets and outclassed in modern. The unknown bonus was devotion to black. I also got them for a $1.50 each.

The problem with Demon last year was that he enabled morbid triggers. Red proved itself to be strong early last season, and a lot of decks were running some copies of Brimstone Volley. Whenever I saw a Demon, they were pretty much eating 5 to the face every time. Tragic Slip was also heavily played, so the Demon never really stood a chance.

Also, when you
compared him to the other 4-drops in the format at the time, he was outclassed by Falkenrath Aristocrat, Huntmaster of the Fells, Hellrider, Olivia Voldaren, just to name a few. Whatever deck you chose to play, there was always a better choice it seemed.

I predicted early that once rotation hit, he'd be a force to be reckoned with. Unfortunately, I forgot I'd said that and shipped every single one I had. I should've saved them until to Theros hit when deciding to ship them.

[Kazekirimaru]

Does anyone happen to know how the Tribute mechanic might go on the stack? I've been thinking about Phoenix and possible janky EDH sac-and-reload interactions. I dunno.

I like Epiphany Storm for the art if nothing else.

[Kazekirimaru]

Pregnancy update

We're now officially past the due date, which was Sunday. The ultrasound on Friday showed that both baby and mama are doing just fine. The doctor is supposed to call us tomorrow to schedule for the next available induction opening, which probably means that she'll start having contractions again tonight since that is what happened with Dude.

Be sure to let us know the play-by-play when it's finally go time, yeah? I'm sure your wife won't mind if you're typing stuff out while she's giving birth.

[redthirst]

Pretty sure Tribute is a replacement effect so the creature either ETB as one verson or the other. So, for example, you couldn't choose for the Phoenix to have 2 +1/+1 counters, stack that ability, and then Lightning Strike it to death so it doesn't recur.

[Stardust]

Does anyone happen to know how the Tribute mechanic might go on the stack? I've been thinking about Phoenix and possible janky EDH sac-and-reload interactions. I dunno.

The choice to add +1/+1 counters is made as the creature enters (not when) so it's a replacement effect (not a trigger) and does not go on the stack. Anything that triggers "if its tribute wasn't paid" will go on the stack.

[redthirst]

Speaking of the Phoenix:

Originally posted by apocalypse31 on MTGS

I feel like they should have made its' tribute be 3, that would have made it a bit better.

"If they'd have made the card better, that would have made the card better."

Well fuck, give it hexproof, indestructible, and annihilator too... that'd make it waaaaaaaaaaay better.

I love spoilers.

[Kazekirimaru]

No stack interactions

[RaidaTheBlade]

Back you leeches! I was leeching first!

Hey, I was willing to actually pay some amount of american dollars

I might just wait and store credit them though. Dunno.

[NerdBoyWonder]

the best card of this kind is still vexing devil

Ugh... what's lower than the blaklanner tier?

That should be called Vexing Devil tier.

[zemanjaski]

Some of the analysis here is just too much for me. Ill be back in a few days.

Seriously, comparisons to vexing devil? Fuck this.

[Khaospawn]

Somebody rolled an odd number.

[Khaospawn]

Movie announcer voice : In a world without Zem....

[Khaospawn]

Just ignore it, James.

[Kazekirimaru]

So, I forget who suggested I do this a while ago, I think it was photo, but I've finally embraced life without bread. Feels good, man.

[GoblinWarchief]

Men , i don't like devil , i don't like this kind of cards in general. I just said that devil is better than the phoenix in a BURN deck and IF you have him in the first two turns of a game. The fact that it costs one limits opponents choices, while this bird comes in a moment of the game when he will almost always be blanked by opponents answers.

[Jack]

I don't see why you're comparing lava Spike to a curve-topper, though.

[Dechs Kaison]

I don't see why he's comparing Vexing Devil to anything playable.

[NerdBoyWonder]

Men , i don't like devil , i don't like this kind of cards in general. I just said that devil is better than the phoenix in a BURN deck and IF you have him in the first two turns of a game. The fact that it costs one limits opponents choices, while this bird comes in a moment of the game when he will almost always be blanked by opponents answers.

Phoenix is not in the same class as vexing devil though. The only comparison I can make (and have made) is it falls under the "will it be what we want/need it to be." VD will always be Bad & Bad choice. This phoenix is Good & Good choice as Z as stated but as he also has stated is it good enough?

Non Devotion red lists don't have a creature at the 4 cmc spot. They might now.
If they don't give me a recurring 3/3 flyer you get a 5/5 body that will probably be followed up by a 4/4 dragon the turn after.

[GoblinWarchief]

ok men , let's stop talking about devil since we all agree it's a bad card ... i will not mention him anymore if you all hate him so much

[zemanjaski]

I'd still be interested in trying VD in modern or legacy burn, those decks already play lavaspikes, so why not? Probably more in modern since in legacy chain lightning is a thing. Probably still bad, but I have an unhealthy fondness for punishers. BotGs seems to be poised to deliver more of that as both mogis and phoenix show (especially with tribute as a named mechanic).

VD did have a narrow window of playability in Standard...if you search old Top 8 MODO lists from SOM/ISD, you will find a winning red list by some schmuck named zemanjaski that played VD in the main. The issue
was that people kept trying to push the damn card in the face of all the lifegain that later entered the format.

No the card was always bad. I know because I won multiple tournaments with it. The card was fucking awful but it's all I had available.

[redthirst]

the best card of this kind is still vexing devil

Ugh... what's lower than the blaklanner tier?

That should be called Vexing Devil tier.

We'll number it Tier 6, that way everyone will think it's awesome despite all the evidence to the contrary.