[Primer] Boros Burn

[cloudscraper]

Ah, I see now. I guess you could have kept the shock and make him have it. How many burn outs did you have?

3 boros charm 4 skullcrack 4 helix 4 strikes and magma jet could have been fine too as a redraw engine (sorry been away couple days)

[cloudscraper]

So to recap, I want from every pilot a brief discussion on these topics asap:

- 4th mutavault vs 1st Temple of Silence
- 3rd assemble the legion vs 4th mutavault (sideboard)
- wear // tear vs glare of heresy (sideboard)
- viashino firstblade vs toil // trouble; value across the meta to justify sideboard inclusion (sideboard)

Arrigato !

- 1st temple of silence. Been white screwed 5 games in around 20 matches played. Didn't win any of them... it's stupid to give our opponents free wins, don't you think?
- why not both? Can't we find a slot for both? Drawing assemble consistently would make it a cohesive game plan against monoblack, and it might have
value in some other midrange matchups (Duke's Junk for example?)... but going to 24 lands against control or any deck where you have to keep skullcrack up or attack with muta + cast a spell is invaluable also
- I would gladly play neither. I dislike purely reactive cards, but if I really had to choose, i'd pick Glare of Heresy which has been decent for me in the only tournament i've tried it
- Toil // Trouble for at least one more week, or two. Then I think we might switch back to VFB if Burn goes again a bit under the radar

[Lightning_Dolt]

MJ "Burn is an insanely good matchup [for MBC]. You have thoughtseizes and duresses and Gray Merchants and they can't beat any of those cards"

Goes 0-2 drop in DE against Burn.

MJ "I have determined that no one likes playing Burn. The people that play Burn don't have a choice"

Chat comment "Except for that guy from CFB"

How can you like that guy? Lol

[warwizard87]

zem, played yournewest deck in a 40 game set tonight vs the recent GP winning deck went 16-4 pre board 12-8 post board not sure if I boarded wrong butt hose games were insanely close most of the time. the only difference I have in board is -1 mortars +1 spark trooper my side board plan was in come Chandra, 2 legion, mutavault, and wear/tear - 3 shock -2 searing blood. One of the biggest issues I kept getting was turn 2 or 3 drawing assemble and them getting a midgame duress and taking it away. in the 20 game post board I only got legion going twice. won both, in another it came a turn to late and double bile blight got the tokens and 2 demons ate my face. drew Chandra twice. duressed twice. wear/tear was awesome won every game but 1 were I hit a staff with it. MBC boarded +3 duress+4 staff+3 doom balde+1 bile blight -4 underworld connections -4 heros down fall, -3 pack rat.

[Nezeru]

Boarding in doom blade doesn't seem correct to me?

[warwizard87]

Its better the hero's downfall cuz its cheaper and still can hit vaults.

[JohnnyfnB]

Stuck between 2 lists for GP Phoenix:

[deck]4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

3 Chain to the Rocks

4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

3 Boros Guildgate
9 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
2 Assemble the Legion
1 Chain to the Rocks
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Peak Eruption
2 Spark Trooper
3 Viashino Firstblade
1 Wear//Tear
[/deck]

Or the current Z List:

[deck]lands
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Boros Guildgate
3 Mutavault
1 Temple of Silence
1 Temple of Abandon

Creatures
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Other
3 Chained to the Rocks

Burns
4 Magma Jet
3
Searing Blood
4 Warleader's Helix
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike

Sideboard
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Toil/Trouble
3 Peak Eruption
1 Wear/Tear
1 Chained to the Rocks
2 Spark Trooper
2 Assemble the Legion[/deck]

Jammed games with the new list and felt like the one I took to the GPT here just with a different plan of attack. Tested against U/w Devo, MBC, and Esper.

the extra scry helps and Toil side of Toil/Trouble managed to let me beat MBC after multiple hand disruptions.

Esper game 1 is cake but the sideboard plan is an issue. My brother brings in more counters, hand disruption and creatures. Only losses were to him getting a majority of his sideboard. It was about even and I never drew a sideboard card against him besides one toil//trouble in a match I was already losing. Can't beat triple Hand Discard with double counters to back up anything you can play.

Kind of stuck. Really. I like the extra scry and Toil//Trouble but Viashino and familiarity is
calling me.

Regarding the mana base, I would use the one you are most comfortable with and the most consistent. I like the second side board best, but would minus 1 PE to add 1 Chandra.

One card people are not thinking about that a burn deck would use is Elixir of Immortality. In mirror gaining 5 life is huge. We effectively countered a Lightning Strike and a Shock. Now we put all of our burn spells and dead Ash Zealot or Young Pyromancer back in the deck. Granted it doesn't put cards back in hand, but it restocks the library and potentially unclogs a flooding issue.

With all of the hand destruction, all the more to play Chandra and have the black mana available to Toil ourselves. No burn deck will do well against a back to back Duress. That's an uphill climb that can be won,
but it will be a very hard fought battle.

[JohnnyfnB]

MJ "Burn is an insanely good matchup [for MBC]. You have thoughtseizes and duresses and Gray Merchants and they can't beat any of those cards"

Goes 0-2 drop in DE against Burn.

MJ "I have determined that no one likes playing Burn. The people that play Burn don't have a choice"

Chat comment "Except for that guy from CFB"

How can you like that guy? Lol

I don't. I also don't except, "that's MJ being MJ." You could have easily said that about Hitler.

[Toddington]

For the 24 land enthusiasts/Searing Blood dissenters.

[deck]
Planeswalker (1)
1x Chandra, Pyromaster

Instant (24)
4x Boros Charm
4x Lightning Strike
4x Magma Jet
4x Shock
4x Skullcrack
4x Warleader's Helix

Enchantment (3)
3x Chained to the Rocks



Creature (8)
4x Chandra's Phoenix
4x Young Pyromancer

Land (24)
3x Boros Guildgate
8x Mountain
3x Mutavault
4x Sacred Foundry
1x Temple of Malice
1x Temple of Silence
4x Temple of Triumph

Sideboard (15)
2x Assemble the Legion
1x Blind Obedience
1x Chained to the Rocks
1x Fated Conflagration
1x Hammer of Purphoros
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Peak Eruption
1x Spark Trooper
3x Toil / Trouble
1x Wear / Tear
[/deck]

I plan to take this to FNM and a 1K (£!) at the weekend. All of my SB plans involved the 24th land, so time to main it.
I like Fated Conflagration over the 3rd Mortars with this manabase. Not sure if I'm running any Blood Crypts yet.

What removal package do people like against UWx, specifically how much do you have after board? If there's about 3 spells, I want the 3rd Assemble. I'm hedging Hammer for MBC and UWx. Hammer isn't as fancy without any Firedrinkers to haste either.

[warwizard87]

[card]Wear // Tear[/card] is better now that monster and junk are packing Bow or Whip in the SB, it never really feels dead since you can just hit Courser of Kruphix.

Holy crap i didn't even notice that. Lol nice call

[JohnnyfnB]

[card]Wear // Tear[/card] is better now that monster and junk are packing Bow or Whip in the SB, it never really feels dead since you can just hit Courser of Kruphix.

Holy crap i didn't even notice that. Lol nice call

Don't forget Satyr Firedancer in the mirror. Plus there are a ton of enchantment creatures too. Herald of Torment, Boon Satyr, Eidolons (all of them), etc.

[zemanjaski]

Its WAY too narrow to bring in to hit 4 targets that effectively die to everything...please tell me you're nothing bringing in Wear // Tear against Mono Black Aggro

[warwizard87]

I actually kind of like it if game two you see whip or bow out of monsters, mono black not so much......

[JohnnyfnB]

There is no reason to bring wear in to MBA. For me at least, that's an almost auto win. I don't even usually side board, because I haven't lost to it.

[montu]

Here's a list of the more interesting targets (of varying value):

Artifacts:
• Bow of Nylea
• Elixer of Immortality
• Hammer of Purphoros
• Pithing Needle
• Ratchet Bomb
• Spear of Heliod
• Staff of the Death Magus
• Whip of Erebos

Enchantments
• Assemble the Legion
• Blind Obedience
• Bow of Nylea
• Chained to the Rocks
• Courser of Kruphix
• Detention Sphere
• Gift of Orzhova
• Hammer of Purphoros
• Madcap Skills
• Pacifism
• Satyr Firedancer
• Spear of Heliod
• Underworld Connections
• Unflinching Courage
• Whip of Erebos

[Elricity]

Of that, the only ones I really care about are whip, bow, and legion. Well, I do for the lifelink enchants but I expect to lose those games anyway.

Do you really bring in wear against esper just to hit detention sphere? Seems a waste. And that about wraps up my opinion of asking why it keeps showing up in sideboard. You're using it to counter 2-4 cards in any one deck. If they don't have it, your card reads "discard this card".

What standard matchup is this card good in? What am I missing here?

[warwizard87]

Sphere and BO.

[Elricity]

My match starts at 2h15m

http://www.twitch.tv/sybexmtg/b/515790319

Do people send you these videos or did you know he was broadcasting?

Aww, he called you a jerk. Cute.

[JohnnyfnB]

Not only Sphere and BO. Also dredge is becoming more popular. You destroy a bestowed night howler and burn the remaining creature. It's a very important sb card. Many answers to burn come in the way of enchantments.

[warwizard87]

You also do need it vs multiple copys of staff, one you can power through with out assemble, two gets almost impossible with out legion. Wear/tear gives you the ability to have a a answer to a verity of decks problematic cards.

[Elricity]

You also do need it vs multiple copys of staff, one you can power through with out assemble, two gets almost impossible with out legion. Wear/tear gives you the ability to have a a answer to a verity of decks problematic cards.

Except it's already stated we're not bring it in vs MBC. Assemble is our answer for MBC.

Also, it's not convincing listing all these cards that wear//tear can hit across a variety of matches. Telling me what the card CAN target is not the same as what the card WILL target. We aren't playing against multiple decks during one game. How many cards in any ONE deck does wear//tear hit in post board games that we can't deal with a hundred other ways that are less narrow? If I draw wear, what is the chance that it has a
target? What is the chance that the card you could have boarded could deal with it and had more targets?

Bow and/or whip plus courser from monsters is about the only one anyone has stated that makes sense.

You don't want it vs whip in BW because they're going to kill you with or without it and it has almost no other targets. Also, I think they only run 2?

Does dredge run whip? I've actually never seen the deck. I sure don't want it just to hit nighthowler.

Glare works on esper more that wear.

I'm not bring in wear just to hit bident in mono blue. It does have a dual mode vs Uw devotion but misses Ephara.

This card was proven to be mediocre for months. I know I tested it for at least 2 and it was the worst card in my 75 every time. What suddenly changed?

Remember the burning earth discussion from a few days ago?

[rage_jl]

I don't side wear // tear against black. If they want to spend turns three and four gaining 3 life and 3 at most on turn five I'll let them. I'll do stuff that affects the game at that point. If I'm not doing that I didn't lose to staff I lost because I had nothing going on except playing lands and grinning at my opponent.

[Elricity]

Check out how awkward his sideboarding is against my post board strategy.

He boarded out rakdos return for being slow? That's...the best card to play against us. Forget slaughter games.

@Rage: Yep.

[JohnnyfnB]

@Elricity Regarding Nighthowler, it can get out of hand VERY fast. They usually drop Sylvan Caryatid on 2 and then by turn 4 or 5 they drop Nighthowler on their little 1/1 Satyr and it becomes an 11/11. You Chain the Satyr and now they have a 10/10 Nighthowler. One of my play test partners runs that deck and we talked about some of the best ways to deal with his deck. Just to destroy Nighthowler when it's an enchantment is the best line. If you Chain or even use Pacifism, they run Golgari Charm and the new green disenchant spell (sided) that escapes me now.

Whip is the main reason and don't forget the mirror with Chains. Det. Sphere and Blind Obedience are also great reasons to board Wear/Tear. If you don't think you need to run Wear/Tear or want to, that's fine. Don't confuse the usefulness and need of this card versus Burning Earth, because they aren't the same. Depending on your meta try it.

[rage_jl]

I understand it against whip, against dredge, and usefulness against Ux and Esper/UW variants (as an option) though I probably will not board it in the mirror as there is little I want to take out and already have to make room for PE and Toil. Drawing one of one or two copies hoping to target one of two BO is rough when I could be hitting their face.

[montu]

@Elricity Regarding Nighthowler, it can get out of hand VERY fast. They usually drop Sylvan Caryatid on 2 and then by turn 4 or 5 they drop Nighthowler on their little 1/1 Satyr and it becomes an 11/11. You Chain the Satyr and now they have a 10/10 Nighthowler. One of my play test partners runs that deck and we talked about some of the best ways to deal with his deck. Just to destroy Nighthowler when it's an enchantment is the best line. If you Chain or even use Pacifism, they run Golgari Charm and the new green disenchant spell (sided) that escapes me now.

Whip is the main reason and don't forget the mirror with Chains. Det. Sphere and Blind Obedience are also great reasons to board Wear/Tear. If you don't think you need to run Wear/Tear or want to,
that's fine. Don't confuse the usefulness and need of this card versus Burning Earth, because they aren't the same. Depending on your meta try it.

I'm in agreement here. On the play, it's easier to keep things under control. On the draw, one miss and things get bad fast.

As far as playing it against Bx Devo, it's not just for Whip or Staff. Killing Underworld Connections slows down their card advantage and reduces their devotion.

[JohnnyfnB]

I understand it against whip, against dredge, and usefulness against Ux and Esper/UW variants (as an option) though I probably will not board it in the mirror as there is little I want to take out and already have to make room for PE and Toil. Drawing one of one or two copies hoping to target one of two BO is rough when I could be hitting their face.

If they Chain your Phoenix, that frees up burn to the dome. With your Phoenix on the board (especially if they lack one) its a Shock every turn that they have to answer. Yes, they can Searing Blood it, but the fear of that should not outweigh the damage that Phoenix can cause. I personally would board it in the mirror for Chains and BO. Not every burn player you will play reads this thread. Lots
still run BO and that slows you down and gives them life while you lose it.

I would not run it against MBC, unless they beat me in game 2 with Staffs and Whip. You should be able to deal with them game one and then game 2 Assemble should finish them.

[Aodh]

BG Dredge
BG
Lotleth Troll
Nighthowler
Grisly Salvage
Decks Meta % Price
13 2.12% 105.39

Don't give a fuck about Dredge

IF Wear // Tear is in your board AND Peak Eruption is not in your board AND you know they're on 2+ BO, then Wear // Tear is justifiable. Otherwise, I don't think it is.

[magicdownunder]

@Elricity: Spot on

I'm running [card]Wear // Tear[/card] mainly for that glimmer of hope vs Hexproof (on MODO), against all the other MUs its only Monsters and Dredge which I toss it in for (It hits Whip, Torment and nighthowler) I know it looks appealing vs control but you really don't want to topdeck [card]Wear // Tear[/card] vs MBC or UWx Control....

Last time

---

[deck=MDU's Blind Zurm]Lands 23
3 Boros Guildgate
9 Mountain
3 Mutavault
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph

Creatures 7
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments 4
3 Chained to the Rocks
1 Blind Obedience

Spells 26
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
3 Searing Blood
3 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Sideboard 15
1 Chained to the
Rocks
1 Mutavault
2 Blind Obedience
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Satyr Firedancer
4 Firedrinker Satyr[/deck]

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6926390)
BW Control vs (MDU) Blind Zurm (Standard Elimination R1 Event 6926390)
(Zemanjaski) Rw Burn vs (MDU) Blind Zurm (Standard Elimination R2 Event 6926390)
(Red) Rw Burn vs (MDU) Blind Zurm (Standard Elimination R3 Event 6926390)

Please note its a meta deck to combat: Ux Devotion (dancer), Burn (BO), UW Control (SBD, though I admit SBD is bad vs esper) and Bx (3 chains MD).

WARNING THESE VIDEOS WERE SHOT LAST WEEK

[u:
2gfhmf12]SE Report 6930013 [/u]
G1 Ux Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 6930013
G2 Bx Aggro vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 6930013
G3 Bx Devotion vs Rw Burn (MDU) SE 6930013

I've concluded that YP$ is the better creature overall (figures), that said I'm now leaning toward a a mini-Chandra themed burn deck just for that "Defend the Queen play".

[Elricity]

@ Johnny, You're actually going to bring in wear in the mirror? What's are you pulling out for it? Because I agree with Rage.

You could always shock the satyr/chain the nighthowler but I see the point you're making. I'm looking at the deck now and yeah, 8 targets that are all game changing post board makes some sense with 7 cards that overwhelm chain with charms post board.

My comparison with burning earth is the conversation chain where people flipped from the card being bad to good and when challenged, raged all over the guy. Then they went back to it being bad and tried to pretend it never happened. I'd like to kinda skip all that.

So we're bringing it in because of it's benefit against monsters and dredge. It sounds like we're not bringing it in vs MBC even though it has targets, probably because they're easier to fight through with assemble and such. Unless that changed or if they represent whip. Not sure.


Esper is a wash.

Montu, your B devotion example is my case in point on why I'm discussing this. You are planning on boarding in a card against a card they are boarding out. Why?

[HK1997]

I dont know what everyone's problem with W/T is. I like it even in MBC. Got rid of a poop staff that would have cost me the game and turned it into a win since I never saw my assembles. It's an additional answer to one of their answers. I like it. And we are talking about a 1 of here. lets not get ahead of ourselves since the mutavault seems to be jumping in and out every iteration of the deck.

I also agree with the problemsolving feature in dredge. Hate dredge and have been running into it a lot. Same goes for hexproof. Its still pretty much an autoscoop, but having WT at least gives me an incentive to play it out.

tbh I dont really need it all that much vs GR monsters. Been doing fine against them without drawing my 1 of, but i'm sure I wont be unhappy to see it, when it does show up. Sure would beat using lightning strike+shock on a courser on T3, like i had to do last game, since I didn't know if i was going to
see my 4th land for WLH. Went well in the end. But having to 2 for 1 a courser always blows.

[Elricity]

Phew I'm slow at posting.

Thanks MDU, I wanted to make sure I wasn't insane. I think I'll risk dodging the two matchups for now but I understand the reasoning. I agree that YP is actually better than the phoenix. Usually anyway. I wouldn't cut either at this point.

In paper, I'll bring it because I know I can't dodge it in the meta I play.

I wouldn't board in wear vs esper either since Dsphere is just card for card and I'd rather play a new threat than hold a card waiting for a dsphere. And here is why I like comparing it to glare. I can board glare in vs esper because it has a guarantee of 6-8 targets and all are at least decent to tempo but generally can be played around. What I'm REALLY bringing in glare for though is the ability to not have to play guessing games on the amount of potentially dead chains I may or may not need vs surprise fiendslayers or archangels. Glare may range between decent to amazing.
Chain and wear can range somewhere between decent to fucking awful. Not a hard call in my book.

HK1997: I'll answer your question of why wear is not good vs MBC (or Esper) with a question. Who is the control match up in burn vs MBC?

[HK1997]

Elricity: Thanks for pointing that out. Yeah I know i know, been reading this thread a long time now and have followed all previous discussions on that topic and diluting the goal we want to achieve with this deck. I concede to the MBC topic. But I really have that sinking feeling that all the hexproof and fringe decks come out to play when I'm online. Might be us europeans delight in being little effective annoying fucks

[Elricity]

Welcome! I'm all for being on the annoying fuck train. Wait, that came out weird.

I can see it vs the fringe decks which unless it's gotten a resurgence, seems to be where monsters is at right now. Don't depend on me for meta calls though because I don't play often enough on MTGO.

Just don't play wear against decks where the spell isn't good. Which summarizes my whole rant. I'll stop talking about it now.

Unless it comes up as a good card next week and then we start all over again.

[Valdarith]

My match starts at 2h15m

http://www.twitch.tv/sybexmtg/b/515790319

Do people send you these videos or did you know he was broadcasting?

Aww, he called you a jerk. Cute.

I took his comment to be tongue in cheek.

[Elricity]

My match starts at 2h15m

http://www.twitch.tv/sybexmtg/b/515790319

Do people send you these videos or did you know he was broadcasting?

Aww, he called you a jerk. Cute.

I took his comment to be tongue in cheek.

I did too. Seems to just be his style.

It's sure not sideboarding well, amirite?


/asshole

[Valdarith]

Ha!

Well in his defense, no other burn decks are playing Chandra in the 75, so Hero's Downfall is a reasonable card to side out.

[Elricity]

I actually would have boarded it out regardless. It's good vs MBC but not good enough to put in otherwise bad removal.

The lifebane zombies staying in were not good choices. The rakdos returns should have been a 2-3 of. It hurts us so much. He also potentially scried down a demon that could have put him in a good position early on and had the bile blight to get a last hit in with it.

[zemanjaski]

Jumped in the DE as player #128.

Paired with Brazilian all star Batutinha round 1.

[zemanjaski]

2-0 Zem

>:)