Dies to Removal

NBW - Just realized the list I posted was 64 cards because I based it off Chapin's list, which is also 64 cards. Can you check to see if that is correct? Somehow I doubt it.

I'm also thinking about swapping a Desecration Demon for Mogis. Just for shits and giggles. I want to see how it would do.

Yeah, it is definitely 64. That is an interesting idea to swap them. Mogis does what Demon does also but also can only be removed by exile. Even if they don't sac to him he does punish their life total. Only problem Mogis has is that he is chumped to the ground game. Demon is an evasive threat. Demon hits the board and is already an active body. Mogis needs pieces to bring him out to play.

Needs testing to see how effective he is.

[deck]Creatures (12)

4 Desecration Demon
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Nightveil Specter
Lands (26)

1 Mountain
11 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Mutavault
2 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Temple of Malice
Spells (22)

2 Rakdos Keyrune
4 Underworld Connections
3 Bile Blight
2 Devour Flesh
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Dreadbore
1 Mizzium Mortars
2 Rakdos's Return
4 Thoughtseize
Sideboard

4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Doom Blade
2 Pharika's Cure
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
2 Drown in Sorrow
2 Duress
1 Mizzium Mortars
1 Rakdos's Return[/deck]

Here is an updated list. Friend just sent me it. I guess there was an error in the original list. Updated list drops Erebos and Packrat from the main board. Also drops a Heroes' Downfall.

I'm now wondering how wise it is to completely remove Pack Rat? I'm sure Chapin knows what he's doing, it's just that I've seen Pack Rats completely take over games, plus it adds to your devotion. I'm not sure I want to get rid of that potential. I can see splitting Devour Flesh and Mizzium Mortars 2/2. 2/2 split for Hero's Downfall and Dreadbore looks good too. Maybe keep Rakdos's Return in the side along with 2 more Mortars?

EDIT - Something like this:

[DECK]
Lands (26)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Mutavault
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
12x Swamp
4x Temple of Malice

Creatures (16)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Nightveil Specter
4x Pack Rat

Spells (88)
2x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
2x Dreadbore
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
1x Bile Blight
1x Devour Flesh
3x Drown in Sorrow
2x Duress
1x Erebos, God of
the Dead
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
[/DECK]

Why exactly are you using Mortars? There seem to be so many better options.

Why exactly are you using Mortars? There seem to be so many better options.

For Blood Baron of Vizkopa. And I figured if I was splashing red, might as well get Rakdos's Return and Nykthos in there.

Why exactly are you using Mortars? There seem to be so many better options.

Motors beats blood baron. Also acts as another sweeper and also can hit most of g/r's x/4 threats.

NBW, what do you think of the list?

I'm now wondering how wise it is to completely remove Pack Rat? I'm sure Chapin knows what he's doing, it's just that I've seen Pack Rats completely take over games, plus it adds to your devotion. I'm not sure I want to get rid of that potential. I can see splitting Devour Flesh and Mizzium Mortars 2/2. 2/2 split for Hero's Downfall and Dreadbore looks good too. Maybe keep Rakdos's Return in the side along with 2 more Mortars?

EDIT - Something like this:

[DECK]
Lands (26)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Mutavault
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
12x Swamp
4x Temple of Malice

Creatures (16)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Nightveil Specter
4x Pack Rat

Spells (88)
2x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
2x Dreadbore
2x Hero's Downfall
n2x Mizzium Mortars
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
1x Bile Blight
1x Devour Flesh
3x Drown in Sorrow
2x Duress
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
[/DECK]

If you are running Nykthos you best have Rakdos Returns mainboard. I have no clue why Chapin hopped off the Pack Rat plan but I am pretty sure it's due to the rise of Bile Blight. If anything you can probably drop down 2x pack rat and bring the returns into the main. I am going to test Chapin's list starting tomorrow and Friday for GP Phoenix. Feel kind of weird not playing Aggro of any sort but honestly don't see any deck besides Black Devotion that has caught my attention. I will miss tapping mountains sideways to cast Stormbreath but I can tap a few swamps now to drop Gary.

If you are running Nykthos you best have Rakdos Returns mainboard. I have no clue why Chapin hopped off the Pack Rat plan but I am pretty sure it's due to the rise of Bile Blight. If anything you can probably drop down 2x pack rat and bring the returns into the main.

This makes the most sense. Thanks for the input.

I took out 2 Pack Rats, moved the 2 Rakdos's Return to the MD, and put 2 Dark Betrayal in the SB.

[DECK]
Lands (26)
4x Blood Crypt
4x Mutavault
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
12x Swamp
4x Temple of Malice

Creatures (14)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray
Merchant of Asphodel
4x Nightveil Specter
2x Pack Rat

Spells (20)
2x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
2x Dreadbore
2x Hero's Downfall
2x Mizzium Mortars
2x Rakdos's Return
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
1x Bile Blight
1x Devour Flesh
3x Drown in Sorrow
2x Duress
1x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Lifebane Zombie
2x Mizzium Mortars
[/DECK]

Well, Owen T. won the TCGPlayer Super Sunday Series on 2/8 with the following list:

[DECK]
Lands (26)
4x Mutavault
18x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceipt

Creatures (16)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Nightveil Specter
4x Pack Rat

Spells (18)
4x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Devour Flesh
1x Doom Blade
2x Drown in Sorrow
3x Duress
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Lifebane Zombie
[/DECK]

Very simple list. I like it a lot. Pretty much what everyone thought MBD would look like after BNG.

It's 74/75 the deck I'm currently running as well, except the Doom Blade that's a third Dark Betrayal.

I'm assuming the Doom Blade is just for broader removal?

Well, the matchup I'm having most trouble with is Gr devotion, so I guess a Doom Blade can be useful there.

Well, Owen T. won the TCGPlayer Super Sunday Series on 2/8 with the following list:

[DECK]
Lands (26)
4x Mutavault
18x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceipt

Creatures (16)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Nightveil Specter
4x Pack Rat

Spells (18)
4x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
2x Dark Betrayal
2x Devour Flesh
1x Doom Blade
2x Drown in Sorrow
3x Duress
2x Erebos, God of the Dead
3x Lifebane Zombie
[/DECK]

Very simple list. I like it a lot. Pretty much what everyone thought MBD would look like after BNG.

Man... I keep looking at these MBC lists and saying "that's too simple to work". But then they do work.

I'm
going to drop White and try mono-Black for a bit. Though I will miss Blood Baron.

Blood Baron is definitely a force to be reckoned with. Devour Flesh and Erebos should help though.

Erebos - "Fuck your life gain!"

I'm half tempted to try and keep him in there. Him and Obzedat are all I actually need White mana for, and I won't need it until turn 5 at the earliest. But I'd be cutting Gary to make room for Barry. Gary's life swing is nice too, though.

I just want all the things.

I just want all the things.

As do I, but I'm reining myself in and sticking with the simple game plan. I'm discovering that I actually enjoy playing the slow game and wait for my opponent to make a mistake.

Weird. I've discovered the same thing this season. I've been thinking I was an aggro player, but I've started liking control more and more. God, I might even try UW...

I don't think I would go that far.

DId Owen ever explain why he took out the whip?

I know he explained it in one of his articles. Just can't remember exactly what he said. I think he explained that it wasn't actually winning him games and that it was a win-more card.

Just found the article. This is a direct quote:

"I chose not to play Whip of Erebos. I saw myself sideboarding it out a ton, and didn't like it very much even in the aggressive matchups. When you look at your deck after sideboard against mono-red, a matchup where I had heard high praise of the Whip, your only creatures are Nightveil Specter, Pack Rat, and Desecration Demon. None of which are particularly good when given lifelink, since the Desecration Demon never actually deals combat damage. So it works as a slow way to gain 2 life a turn from Nightveil Specter or close out a game you weren't already going to win with a Pack Rat, which seemed unlikely to me. I admit that the Whip is great in the mirror and gives whoever has it a serious edge that they otherwise wouldn't have had. I chose to
make my deck more streamlined and consistent—better against the rest of the field and worse in the mirror."

My dad used to tell me that you shouldn't fix something that's not broken.
But I never listened to him.

With the rise of GR Monsters, Jund Monsters and my old problems with Gr Devotion, I'm thinking of going this way:
[DECK]
Lands (25)
4x Mutavault
17x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceipt

Creatures (16)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Lifebane Zombie
4x Pack Rat

Spells (19)
3x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
2x Ultimate Price
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
3x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
3x Dark Betrayal
4x Duress
3x Erebos, God of the Dead
1x Underworld Connections
2x Devour Flesh
2x Doom Blade
[/DECK]

I'm also thinking of going back to 25 lands and maindecking another removal card.
I feel like Nightveil Spectre isn't performing that well in a world with less and less monoU (like my meta), while Lifebane Zombie is often card advantage
on a stick with a good clock.
I'm also unsure about the sideboard, as Drown in Sorrow could actually be a good card, but it just hasn't performed that well with me so far.

Any opinion / snarky comment is always welcome

Any opinion / snarky comment is always welcome

Hey man, whatever floats your boat. Test it out and report back.

I also have a question about scry lands. I'm noticing people using more than just Temple of Deceit. I just looked at a list on mtgo stats and this was the manabase:

3 Mutavault
16 Swamp
2 Temple of Deceit
2 Temple of Malice
2 Temple of Silence

I'm assuming this is to mislead opponents into expecting something that isn't actually in the deck and sideboarding wrong?

That's a thing people do sometimes. There was a guy at my LGS earlier this season running MBD with Blood Crypts and Godless Shrines to make people think it was another Dega deck. They'd play thinking it was one thing and he was doing something else. By game 2 he knew what they were doing with their deck and they'd be on the back foot with what they knew about his.

Sounds like a plan. I think I'll go with 6 scry lands for game day tomorrow.

I tried to go with 6 (up to 8 ) scrylands earlier in the season, and got punished badly a couple of time when I REALLY need that land to be a swamp, but I can see your point.

Yeah, I don't know how long that guy tried to pull that stunt, but it worked to his advantage at least one time. Unless you're just looking for more Scrying, it might be better to try and do this with shocklands instead. That way you can bring it in untapped if you need to.

All good things to consider. Just realized another benefit was being able to cast more stuff off Nightveil Specter.

[DECK]
Lands (25)
4x Mutavault
17x Swamp
4x Temple of Deceit

Creatures (16)
4x Desecration Demon
4x Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4x Lifebane Zombie
4x Pack Rat

Spells (19)
3x Bile Blight
2x Devour Flesh
2x Ultimate Price
4x Hero's Downfall
4x Thoughtseize
4x Underworld Connections

Sideboard (15)
3x Dark Betrayal
4x Duress
3x Erebos, God of the Dead
2x Devour Flesh
2x Doom Blade
1x Bile Blight
[/DECK]

Tried this version out at the Game Day. I ended up winning but a Game Day is not a GP and I've actually been quite lucky, so I don't think I can make any assesment about the pure strength of the build, but I've got to say that the deck "felt" really good this way.
When playing against white or green-based decks (I don't know your meta, but there are lots of GR / Jund monsters around here) he's really a good beater that cuts them off a card, against monoU he's "just" a good
beater that doesn't care *that* much of Domestication (while a domesticated NVS is usually a play that punishes us VERY hard), and when playing against UW / Esper can remove Archangel of Thune / Blood Baron of Vizkopa AND pressure their planeswalkers properly.

At the moment I'm really happy with the switch.

On the other side I think I'll have to come up with a better sideboard, when I had to play against an Esper Control who brought in Pack Rats after Sideboard I ended up having 25 lands + 4 Thoughtseize + 4 Duress + 4 Zombies (12 cards that spy on enemies' hands? like it!) + 4 Demons + 4 Gary + 4 Underworld Connections + 3 Erebos + 4 Hero's Downfall + 4 Bile Blight (because fuck you Pack Rats) + 4 Devour Flesh (because fuck you Blood Baron) and, suddenly, found myself at 64 cards...

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdat ... ckID=64098

Lifebane Zombie FTW!

RedNihilist could you post a rough SB'ing guide vs Grx, Bx, Control, Burn and Ux?

I'm thinking:

Grx
in: 2 Doom Blade
out: 2 Devour Flesh

Bx
in: 3 Dark Betrayal, 4 Duress, 3 Erebos, God of the Dead, 1 Bile Blight
out: 4 Lifebane Zombie, 4 Desecration Demon, 3 Hero's Downfall

BW
in: 3 Dark Betrayal, 4 Duress, 3 Erebos, God of the Dead, 2 Devour Flesh
out: 4 Desecration Demon, 4 Hero's Downfall, 2 Ultimate Price

Control
in: 4 Duress, 3 Erebos, God of the Dead
out: 3 Bile Blight, 2 Devour Flesh, 2 Ultimate Price

Burn
in: 3 Erebos, God of the Dead, 2 Devour Flesh, 4 Duress
Out: 4 Lifebane Zombie 4 Hero's Downfall, 1 Ultimate Price

Uw Devotion
in: 2 Doom Blade, 1 Bile Blight, 1 Devour Flesh
out: 4 Underworld Connections

Also one of the things I love about Bx Devotion is the 26 lands, how does it feel with only 25?

Here's the list I've been running since BNG release weekend.
Since then I've gotten Top 4 in 1 FNM and Gameday BNG, 3 Top 8 in FNM.
I don't play tournaments bigger than my local store yet, but so far I've been very successful with this and feel confident in every major matchup.

Just so you know, my store has such a strong G/R Monsters metagame, that in one of the FNMs that I got Top 8 in, I played against it 4/5 rounds that night!
The next day at Gameday I got Top 4 and played G/R 2 out 4 rounds.
So, I think I've learned to play against it better and am confident that taking out Nightveil Specter is the right choice.
(btw, not sure why the decklist shows up weird, but I hope it's not a hinderance to anyone reading it.)

[deck]
2 Bile Blight
4 Desecration Demon
2 Devour Flesh
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Lifebane Zombie
4 Mutavault
4 Pack Rat
18
Swamp
3 Temple of Deceit
1 Temple of Silence
4 Thoughtseize
2 Ultimate Price
4 Underworld Connections[/deck]

Sideboard is [deck]
2 Bile Blight
2 Dark Betrayal
2 Devour Flesh
2 Doom Blade
2 Drown In Sorrow
3 Duress
2 Erebos, God of the Dead [/deck]


Here are my sideboard plans:

Against Mono Black, Black/White Mid-Range

-2 Ultimate Price
-4 Desecration Demon
-4 Hero's Downfall
+2 Bile Blight
+1 Devour Flesh (+2 against B/W)
+2 Dark Betrayal (+1 against B/W)
+2 Erebos, God of the Dead
+3 Duress

Against Green/Red Monsters

-4 Underworld Connection
+2 Devour Flesh
+2 Doom Blade

Against Mono Blue or U/W Devotion

-4 Underworld Connections
-2 Desecration Demon (if on play; -2 Pack Rat on draw)
-2 Ultimate Price
+2 Drown In Sorrow
+2 Devour Flesh
+2 Bile Blight
+2 Doom Blade

Against W/x Aggro and R/x Aggro, and R/x Devotion

-4 Underworld Connection
-4 Thoughtseize
+2 Doom Blade
+2 Drown in Sorrow
+2 Devour Flesh
n+2 Bile Blight

Against U/W/x Control

-1 Bile Blight
-2 Devour Flesh
-2 Ultimate Price
+3 Duress
+2 Erebos, God of the Dead

Against Esper Humans (or W/B Humans or Black aggro)

-4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
-4 Pack Rat
+2 Drown in Sorrow
+2 Dark Betrayal (against less black decks, +2 Devour Flesh)
+2 Bile Blight
+2 Erebos, God of the Dead

For those of you with experience, is Owen's SB plan which ADarkConfidant and myself suggest still viable in the Bight Bile mirror of today?

Owen wrote his plan pre-BnG now that Bight Bile is around can we really bank on just Pack Rats?

For those of you with experience, is Owen's SB plan which ADarkConfidant and myself suggest still viable in the Bight Bile mirror of today?

Owen wrote his plan pre-BnG now that Bight Bile is around can we really bank on just Pack Rats?

I would argue that in the mirror match, my strategy isn't "bank[ing] on just Pack Rats" as much as it is banking on an unanswered top deck.
After testing heavily in mirror match, and a lot of B/W mirror match, Pack Rack is a possible win con.
To pack the rat in the mirror, you need to do a combination of checking the opponents hand early on in the game, playing multiple Mutavaults, or saving Pack Rat for turn 5 or 6. Mutavaults can win the Pack Rat game, as they involve tapping just one
land rather than 3 to increase power. If you can make it where your rats are always 4 or higher toughness via mutavault activations, it's possible to win with just Pack Rat.
That's a very tricky game and isn't always worth the risk; so, a vast majority of games will just be Pack Rat, a Pack Rat Token, and a Mutavault swinging for 8.
No further investment.

The mirror match is more so defined by Underworld Connections and Erebos, God of the Dead drawing relevant cards, and top decking Gray Merchants. At first it seems like a coin flip, but instead it's a war of attrition and about using your removal and limited threats wisely.

Against B/W, it's all about getting Erebos out, or having Devour Flesh ready.


So, yeah, I think it's a valid strategy.
We're putting in more hand destruction, which not only gives needed information for knowing how much removal to save/spend, but also gets rid of the threat that you
can handle the least. Hopefully with the addition of Erebos to our card advantage, we'll be able to top deck more relevant kill spells that we also boarded in.
Pack Rat isn't as good as it was before, but it's still a game winner, and a threat out of nowhere(, especially when the game comes down to top deck wars, as is the custom of the mirror match).

That was good post, makes me wish we had room for spectors.

That was good post, makes me wish we had room for spectors.

Well, I love the card personally( even before I played this deck), but I was sideboarding in Lifebane Zombie in every match.
I didn't want too many creatures, as our goal as a control deck is to have more answers to threats rather than be a threat ourselves. Juggling the two can become cumbersome.

Nightveil Specter, as cool as stealing cards is, was just a terrible fighter, and unlike the other 12 creatures (Pack Rat, Desi, and Gary) couldn't win a game. A 2/3 is not what you ever want to topdeck when you're out of cards.
I mean, sure, you could steal Master of Waves (one of the best interactions in Standard Magic), but you should never be betting on Nightveil Specter's
steals over your own draws. And anytime I played a Specter, I felt like I was gambling to draw better cards from their deck. And if I had better cards already in my hand, than the Specter( at least most of the time) would be discarded to Pack Rat's ability.

But he was pretty cool.

However, the Zombie can exile white and green creatures, which between Polukranos, Courser of Kruphix, Sylvan Caryatid, Arbor Colossus, Brimaz, Loxodon Smiter, Voice of Resurgance and Blood Baron of Vizkopa is already a lot.
The intimidate and 3 power pushes through most non-mirror match defenses, and just makes it a better game ender.

If the Specter comes back into the deck, it'll be in the sideboard, since it only can excel against the Mono Black mirror match.

RedNihilist could you post a rough SB'ing guide vs Grx, Bx, Control, Burn and Ux?

I'm thinking:

Grx
in: 2 Doom Blade
out: 2 Devour Flesh

Bx
in: 3 Dark Betrayal, 4 Duress, 3 Erebos, God of the Dead, 1 Bile Blight
out: 4 Lifebane Zombie, 4 Desecration Demon, 3 Hero's Downfall

BW
in: 3 Dark Betrayal, 4 Duress, 3 Erebos, God of the Dead, 2 Devour Flesh
out: 4 Desecration Demon, 4 Hero's Downfall, 2 Ultimate Price

Control
in: 4 Duress, 3 Erebos, God of the Dead
out: 3 Bile Blight, 2 Devour Flesh, 2 Ultimate Price

Burn
in: 3 Erebos, God of the Dead, 2 Devour Flesh, 4 Duress
Out: 4 Lifebane Zombie 4 Hero's Downfall, 1 Ultimate Price

Uw Devotion
in: 2 Doom Blade, 1 Bile Blight, 1 Devour Flesh
out: 4 Underworld Connections

Also
one of the things I love about Bx Devotion is the 26 lands, how does it feel with only 25?

I've been busy over the weekend, I'll try to answer more in depth over the day but I'm in office right now.
Quick shots:
- after going 4/4 at a local PTQ I discovered that I should have cared more about BW rather than GR, as the former was literally everywhere; I managed to win 2-1 the only BW player I met, but if I were to go to another PTQ tomorrow I'd rather have 3 Devour Flesh in the main deck rather than 3 Bile Blight;
- speaking of Bile Blight: having access to a 4-of between main + side is really not needed, 3x is probably more than enough;
- 25 lands vs 26: I'm greedy, I haven't got any good excuse for that. I've lost 2 games by never seeing my THIRD land, so I guess karma punished me;
- Last time I played the deck I've cut 1x Erebos and 1x Duress in order to have access to 2x Drown in Sorrow for small aggro.