Dies to Removal

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:27 pm**

Are you trying to play a better scum game currently?
Of course.
willing to lynch for this post.
Gonna catch up first though[/
quote]
I know you saw the Gone Postal spectator thread. I know they called me a "cheeky fuck."

You can't seriously believe I'm that cheeky.
I'm gonna go find a quote... brb

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:27 pm**

Yeah yeah, I was scum in that game and I basically gave people the scum team.

Ok, maybe I am that cheeky.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:33 pm**

Dechs are you scum?

Totes scum.

Totally not random.

The fact that you would sarcastically say you were scum and feel like my wagon is random Is suspect as fuck.

fos: dechs kaison

Also, that's one hell
of a trap.

"Are you scum?"
"No."
"Well of course you'd deny it!"

or

"Are you scum?"
"Totes am."
"Your sarcasm proves it!"

549 you say lmd and rcw are equally scummy to you.

-----

I would expect town to say no. I would expect scum to say no. I would expect scum to say "yeah /sarcasm"

So, third lesson I've had playing mafia: No sarcasm.

-----
He was scum that game
-----

Vote Dechs Kaison

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:35 pm**

and hes trying to use the same excuse as last time.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:36 pm**

fool me once, shame on you.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:38 pm**

Ok, all caught back up. I don't like the way Az is presenting near certainty about GR's scum alignment.

Everything he writes seems to indicate that he holds himself in high regard. In my experience, this occurs from a natural state of arrogance or the Dunning-Kruger effect in full glory. Either way, I don't trust anyone displaying the irrational confidence that Az is, online or in person.

I see MoJo's speed vig as a townie ability, and if he uses it on Az tomorrow as promised I won't be upset about it. If Az is just a town asshole, his dead body will eliminate the "... but what if he's scum?" WIFOM from my further analysis. Stating that his scum game looks like his town game did Az no favors, because I can never trust him again.

I'm going to go back again and read GR in isolation.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:39 pm**

Super lulz @ Dechs playing the same sarcasm card from Gone Postal. I had forgotten about it.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:39 pm**

So, let me get this straight.

Rather than read through the thread, note the positions each player has taken, slips that were made, claims and all other kinds of actual evidence... you're going to jump on me being sarcastic because I did it in my first game.

Alright then. Hand scum the game, that's cool.

Like I said, if I get lynched as town, it just helps my scum game.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:47 pm**

You get pretty nervous at one vote. You did that with mine too.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:47 pm**

So, let me get this straight.

Rather than read through the thread, note the positions each player has taken, slips that were made, claims and all other kinds of actual evidence... you're going to jump on me being sarcastic because I did it in my first game.

Alright then. Hand scum the game, that's cool.

Like I said, if I get lynched as town, it just helps my scum game.

I read through the thread, noted the positions each player has taken, and then jumped on you.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:49 pm**

Then make a goddamn case.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:51 pm**

I've made all the case I need, you claimed scum.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:54 pm**

And here I thought you were going to play Mafia.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:55 pm**

Me too, but you kind of ruined the game by claiming scum.

Do you want to give up your teammate, too?

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:56 pm**

Might as well. It's GR. I was going to bus him hardcore and claim that as towncred for the rest of the game.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:00 pm**

But, for realz, now we know who GR's scum buddy is.

Az and I are trying to get a town block going. Jones was with us for a while there on GR before he went on a Red tangent. You come in here trying to kick up as much dust as you can and just pick on a blatant sarcastic joke.

So, here's how this is going to work: I'm done for the Day. My vote's on GR. You guys do what you want.

GR-Rez is my bet as the scum team.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:11 pm**

Ok, all caught back up. I don't like the way Az is presenting near certainty about GR's scum alignment.

Everything he writes seems to indicate that he holds himself in high regard. In my experience, this occurs from a natural state of arrogance or the Dunning-Kruger effect in full glory. Either way, I don't trust anyone displaying the irrational confidence that Az is, online or in person.

I see MoJo's speed vig as a townie ability, and if he uses it on Az tomorrow as promised I won't be upset about it. If Az is just a town asshole, his dead body will eliminate the "... but what if he's scum?" WIFOM from my further analysis. Stating that his scum game looks like his town game did Az no favors, because I can never trust him again.

I'm going
to go back again and read GR in isolation.

You know, before you start throwing Dunning-Kruger around, you might care to actually learn something about my history. Yes, I think I'm very good at a dumb internet game. This does not necessarily mean my ego is out of control.

I've played about 70+games for nine years across four sites. In the last two years, I've played four games as town.
Two of those games were flawless town victories in which not a single townie died, and I had identified all the mafia by the end of day 1. One of those games was a weird mini in which I got a neutral killing role killed, then lynched a mafia, then mislynched a townie, then was NK'd. The final game, I had identified and lynched two mafia and a serial killer correctly by day three, and was NK'd before the third mafia could be caught. Two of those games were invitationals, in which only the best players on our site were invited to play.

So in the last two years, I'm batting 11 out of 12 on
lynches, and not against bad players.

These are the links to those games:

http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outs ... -empresses
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outs ... -game-over
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outs ... -game-over
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/outs ... -game-over

So...yeah. I'm reasonably confident that I know what I'm doing. And my best guess at the moment is
GR is scum. Does that explain where I'm coming from a little bit better?

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:17 pm**

I'm sorry to dredge all this stuff up, but I literally can't think of any other way to explain where I'm coming from here. I really hate to do it, b/c I know it makes me sound like a complete dick, but IDK how else to lay it out there.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:22 pm**

Your case against me is that you're very good at mafia and are seldom wrong about your scum reads. That's why only the scummy guy who you already "cleared" as town is buying it.

I'm willing to lynch Kaison. LMD and PTLM have gone AWOL it seems, where are those chaps?

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:24 pm**

Az, I didn't say you were wrong about GR, just that I find it difficult to believe anything you say because:

1. You said you play this way as scum
2. I find arrogant people abrasive, and I reject their conclusions as an emotional reaction.

But sweet appeal to authority/accomplishment, homie.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:51 pm**

Az, I didn't say you were wrong about GR, just that I find it difficult to believe anything you say because:

1. You said you play this way as scum
2. I find arrogant people abrasive, and I reject their conclusions as an emotional reaction.

But sweet appeal to authority/accomplishment, homie.

I'm sorry you're perceiving my confidence as arrogance, and I'll try to work on that.

But it would be neat if you could avoid using pretentious psychological jargon to say I'm a puffed up narcissist trying to overcompensate for a lack of skill in something by trying to impress people on the internet. Because that's total bullshit, and really, really offensive.

No one should be impressed by someone else playing mafia well. This is not some
kind of significant life accomplishment. I don't think that. If you happen to think that, I respectfully disagree.

I've probably they've slipped here and there into impatience with people. But I've refrained from trying to actively insult people, and that's a line you've crossed here. So please don't pretend I've got some kind of monopoly on being abrasive.

As to the substance of your post, I said I try to play in the same patterns that I do as scum. That doesn't mean I succeed all the time - I'm pretty regularly skewered as scum b/c I'm not able to maintain that pattern. I don't scum-hunt with the same vigour or ability throughout the game. I don't sound as certain, and I don't get the same results. Makes me pretty easy to catch, to people who are familiar with me, actually.

And I'm not appealing to my "authority/accomplishment" in the slightest. I wrote a case on GR, a very long and thorough one, and that's what I'm standing by, not my past. But if you're going to
argue that my level of confidence is somehow some kind of personal delusion of egotism that I'm suffering from, that constitutes an ad hom attack, and the best possible defense to your baseless attack is a response grounded in actual evidence.

If you dislike that the evidence says that I'm not a delusional fucktard, sorry to disappoint you. Is it such a terrible thing for someone to be good at what they do, and also to know it, if they're not trying to put down others? Do we have to try to tear down anyone who dares to say "I know how to do this dumb and useless thing on the internet better than other people"?

The worst kind of arrogance is someone who says that no one can be possibly better than they are at doing a thing. That's not what I'm saying, but that does seems to be awfully close to the idea I'm hearing from you. It would be a kindness if you would stop, one silly and fairly unextraordinary human being on the internet to another.

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:09 pm**

Rez, what are your reads on people other than Dechs, such as ham, me, jones, GR, and Red. I think there's enough material here that you'd also have an opinion on those players, no?

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:17 pm**

Ok, I'll be nicer to you, Az

Posted: **Thu Sep 11, 2014 11:21 pm**

Rez, what are your reads on people other than Dechs, such as ham, me, jones, GR, and Red. I think there's enough material here that you'd also have an opinion on those players, no?

I do have opinions on those players, and more!

Mogadishu Jones
imopen2

Azrael

Lord_Mcdonalds
( G_R )

RedNihilist
hamfactorial

Dechs Kaison

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:31 am**

Town (Top) to scum (bottom)?

Sorry for not posting.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:37 am**

@Rezombad

Going by Stardusts last posts, what do you think of GR, imopen and Rednihilist (each currently tied with the most votes)?

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:24 am**

Rez, what are your reads on people other than Dechs, such as ham, me, jones, GR, and Red. I think there's enough material here that you'd also have an opinion on those players, no?
I do have opinions on those players, and more!

Mogadishu Jones
imopen2

Azrael

Lord_Mcdonalds
( G_R )

RedNihilist
hamfactorial

Dechs Kaison

Why?

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:50 pm**

I'd say it's about time for a deadline...

Deadline is set for one week from the time of this post (plus 10 minutes), Sept 19 - 8 am CST, 2 pm GMT. Deadline Clock.

If a lynch has not been achieved before that time, no lynch will occur.

Votecount!

( G_R ) (2): Azrael, Dechs Kaison
imopen2 (2): Lord_Mcdonalds, hamfactorial
RedNihilist (2): imopen2, Mogadishu Jones
Dechs Kaison (1): rezombad

Not voting: RedNihilist, ( G_R )

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:27 pm**

Gotta love that deadline clock.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:39 pm**

The GR Case, ADHD Edition

1. GR acts like he's doing the town a favor by breaking from his "official" position of not taking stances to provide his reads on people. Prior to this, he doesn't seem very interested at all in coming to any conclusions about all the activity taking place in the thread. Rather than trying to read people, it looks like he's just trying to avoid sticking his neck out.
2. His reads on people are full of confusion and doubt over things that should not evoke confusion or doubt in a townie. He's having too hard of a time reaching conclusions. This happens when scum aren't sure how they would deal with a situation as a townie, and when they're afraid of getting backlash for backing a bad wagon.
3. What scum tend to do in that situation is exactly what GR did here - he tried to stall for time to see what other players were saying and thinking instead of going
on record about what he thought on my case. He actually admits that was what he was doing in his posts. He was looking for a safe play, to avoid blame, instead of looking for scum.
4. GR's posts show a lot of nervousness, waffling, and performance-language tells. He doesn't seem convinced by the arguments in his own posts.
5. GR's vote against Dechs was very over-aggressive. He acted like Dechs was scum on a silver platter in his language, but failed to explain why, and when other people disagreed with him he backtracked from that read as fast as he could.

There's a few other tells I could mention, like the sign-up thread debacle, and his antics since the initial case such as the naked OMGUS vote, but I think the above is enough material to make the bare-bones case.

Any two or three of those points together would be enough for a solid case. Together, it's like a museum exhibit of the most common mistakes that scum tend to make. We should kill GR, with fire.

Questions?

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 4:58 pm**

Questions?

Who else is scum Az?

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:26 pm**

Questions?
Who else is scum Az?

I'm curious about Rez.

I've got some low-level town tells from ham, and Lord McD, but not enough to rule any of them out completely. I read jones as town, but can't fully trust that read, because he's tricksy.

It's not Dechs or RN or Imopen2.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:30 pm**

Rez always thinks I'm scum, so I'm not surprised to see my name near the bottom of the list. Not sure if he's legit suspicious of me or trying to put me in the mud.

Why not imopen2? He's the lurkiest lurker left, I don't see how you're ruling him out based on such sporadic posting.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:35 pm**

Az, you haven't sunk to personal attacks, except when you called me the worst player you'd ever seen.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:40 pm**

Az, you haven't sunk to personal attacks, except when you called me the worst player you'd ever seen.

Exactly!

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:44 pm**

Anyways, I read all the posts in the last couple pages, and I've gotta say that the case against G_R isn't bad. A lot of it is behavioral, and it forces is to trust Az (which none of us want to do), but it may be the best case yet put forth.

I agree that DK seems suspicious, mostly due to his inability to accept a simple vote on him (that's how I acted in my first scum game).

I think red asked me a question but idk what it was. He seems to have reacted pretty well to the pressure and not flailed or threatened to quit (a la DK).

For now I'd be pretty comfortable with a G_R or DK lynch.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:49 pm**

Sorry, Open. I'm a dick and that was a dickish thing to say.

Why not imopen2? He's the lurkiest lurker left, I don't see how you're ruling him out based on such sporadic posting.

He's just been so brazen about being annoyed by long posts, and unwilling to participate in certain ways that he feels would be unpleasant for him. I think scum generally tend to be more conciliatory or quiet about not wanting to do things the town wants them to do. He's not been apologetic at all. It's like...the guy who walks into the restaurant with no shirt and no shoes and tries to order. Maybe it's not what you'd prefer him to do, but he's not the picture of someone who's trying to pull a fast and shady one on you. He's not trying to change
himself to suit what other people want him to do, or expect from him. That's pro-town.

Plus, there was that bit where he started reading me as town, based on me not wanting to kill him, and a few things about the way that he tried to attack me - it seemed a very genuine "I dislike you" vote.

There's not all that much material there, but nothing of what is there reads the slightest bit artificial or dishonest to me, and that's good enough.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 5:55 pm**

Why does your ADHD case leave out my claim? Is it deliberate? Are you not even considering the possibility that I'm telling the truth? I know it's too much to ask to wait until D3 to verify my claim, and probably waste two cop shots in the process. Like I said, I don't even expect to make it through the night, but why not find a REAL scum today instead of losing both me and someone else at night?

I've been doc many a time, and every time I get the role I've been found scummy by other people. The time I was a vig I got lynched. But this is the first time I'm a miller on top of that, and all the things that you are saying in your latest post can even make sense, since I admit that I didn't want to be cop'd N1 and fast-lynched D2, but you're wrong about me being scum. Very wrong.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:02 pm**

Why does your ADHD case leave out my claim? Is it deliberate? Are you not even considering the possibility that I'm telling the truth? I know it's too much to ask to wait until D3 to verify my claim, and probably waste two cop shots in the process. Like I said, I don't even expect to make it through the night, but why not find a REAL scum today instead of losing both me and someone else at night?

I've been doc many a time, and every time I get the role I've been found scummy by other people. The time I was a vig I got lynched. But this is the first time I'm a miller on top of that, and all the things that you are saying in your latest post can even make sense, since I admit that I didn't want to be cop'd N1 and fast-lynched D2, but you're wrong about me
being scum. Very wrong.

It's deliberate. Claims analysis is often a complete crap-shoot, b/c it depends on speculation about the moderator's thoughts during the design process. How likely is it that the mod would have decided to give a doc/jailer role to the town? To the mafia? Well, we don't have any firm way of knowing that.

Do I think the role is made up from thin air? Not really. Stardust's fingerprints are definitely on the design of the role. It'd be one hell of a creative and risky fake-claim, so that bit rings true.

Do I think that good cop being a doctor on his "good" days makes a hell of a lot of sense? No, not really. But who knows.

Do I think stardust would be more likely to put your flavor on town or scum? No clue.

So at the end of the day, doesn't tell me a whole hell of a lot.

What I do dislike is the way you've tried to present your value to the town as a doctor. Townies will do that sometimes, but the way that you've done it - the emotions
are off, the style. It's not frustration at a townie power role going under b/c of bad play, it's coaxing us to be beguiled by the promise of your potential power in the night.

Posted: **Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:09 pm**

Bah, I give up. As a non-native this game is too hard and I'm sick of explaining myself EVERY. FUCKING. SINGLE. DAY. ONE. There's a reason I had been on hiatus and I've been reminded of that reason. D1 or N1 I don't care. I'll finish this game and I'm done with mafia.

Not replacing out out of respect for everyone involved in the game, especially Stardust.

Dies to Removal

LEGO Movie Mafia - Game Over - Town Win