Dies to Removal

Creture — Phoenix 2RR Mythic Rare
Flying
Tribute 2 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may place two +1/+1 counters on it)

When Flame-Wreathed Phoenix enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, it gains haste and "When this creature dies, return it to its owner's hand."

So much for getting a 4cc to match Hellrider. I just don't see this not getting its tribute.

Legendary Enchantment Creature — God 2RB Mythic Rare
Indestructible
As long as your devotion to black and red is less than seven, Mogis isn't a
creature.
At the beginning of each opponent's upkeep, Mogis deals 2 damage to that player unless he or she sacrifices a creature.
7/5

Hard to remove 2-damage clock against counter? Sounds legit. All bow to the demon bull!

Question is if 5/5 Flyer for 4 without downsite is good enough.

As for Mogis 2 damage every turn is quite good, however turning him on would be quite hard.

5/5 for 4 in red, with evasion is very big. Wouldn't be good in the current format (too weak to terrors) but the card has huge potential over the next two years. That's a very, very big body for a red card.

Mogis is just good. How good? Hard to say. Will be interesting to see what decks develop to try and take advantage of him; in an aggressive RB deck I probably still prefer Erobos out of the board against control tbh.

Especially when he is so hard to turn on. Normal god can be turn by 2 creatures for 2 mana. This is minimum of 3..

This phoenix is mythic Oo. Doesnt sound like it when it gives options to an opponent, however might be good to take later for next season, when a lot of terrors rotate.

The main gods need four more mana to activate (5 - 1 = 4). These lesser gods need 5 mana instead (7 - 2 = 5).

You could run RB god in a control shell, I can see him doing work in those types of decks.

Mogis is okay

Phoenix is okay, Fanatic seems better in the 4 slot

If only it had haste...

But it does! Sometimes.

Seems like a decent card. A vanilla 5/5 flying for 4 in red would see plenty of play. This is a bit worse, but I'd be willing to bet it'll get played at some point in its Standard lifetime.

Mogis is okay. Have to get him active to really make him worth it.

Thing is, if you're able to activate one of these new multi-color gods, aren't you already winning?

Yeah, probably. Depends on the deck, I guess. Rakdos Shred-Freak alone counts for 4 of the 5 you need, so maybe one of these gods can be built around taking advantage of the hybrids? That example seems bad, but Iroas and Reckoner are going to be BFF's. Xenagos and BTE? I dunno. Could work. If you can get these guys active reliably they're obviously very good. I'm surprised they're so large so far - just as large as the so-called "major" five gods - but their abilities have been a lot weaker so far.

Yeah, probably. Depends on the deck, I guess. Rakdos Shred-Freak alone counts for 4 of the 5 you need, so maybe one of these gods can be built around taking advantage of the hybrids? That example seems bad, but Iroas and Reckoner are going to be BFF's. Xenagos and BTE? I dunno. Could work. If you can get these guys active reliably they're obviously very good. I'm surprised they're so large so far - just as large as the so-called "major" five gods - but their abilities have been a lot weaker so far.

I think hybrid mana only counts once. You choose which color it counts for, but it can't count twice. So Rakdos Shred-Freak still only counts for 2 devotion, but can be either red or
black, or 1 of each.

Seems you're right. That's counter-intuitive. From Fanatic of Mogis: "Each R in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to red."

For Mogis it would have to be "Each mana symbol that is R or B in the mana costs of permanents you control counts toward your devotion to red and black." ... Pretty awkward.

I think that phoenix is a vexing devil. There were a lot of ways in which it could have been real.
For instance:
Creture — Phoenix 2RR Mythic Rare
Flying (HASTE)
Tribute 2 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may place two +1/+1 counters on it)

When Flame-Wreathed Phoenix enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, it gains "Can't be blocked except by two or more creatures".and "When this creature dies, return it to its owner's hand."

Those are reds powers, Red Creatures are getting haste for basically free nowadays, and I just threw that out there with little thought, but ultimately it seems like just another punisher card to me.

Red mythic rares.... they need to do that things that matter to red or are generally "BAD" cards. My evaluation says thats going to remain
bad for a long long time.

I like how you suggest they make the card completely obscene

I like how you suggest they make the card completely obscene

That's pretty much what everyone suggests... like 4 for either a Flying Haste 3/3 with recursion or Flying Haste 5/5 wouldn't be absolutely bonkers.

I like how you suggest they make the card completely obscene

1st of all: fuck you for focusing on whats LEAST important there, dumbass.

2ndly, That being said its laughable of all the people saying "OMFG That card would be ~insert bullshit word for overpowered here~", BECAUSE, they make "Obscene" shit all the time so its not unreasonable for anyone to want this seasons insane card to be in the color they prefer

The thing is this. . . its a punisher card.
Last season I got punched in the face by redthirst so much about me giving him VD in lists that I actually went and researched that mechanic. Giving your opponent
the choice is almost always bad. I looked at all the browbeat threads, where they actually did the math. I looked in modern and legacy burn, and what they thought about it. (Vexing devil isn't AS bad in those deck but they often have better options)

"Opponents Choose" - is a horrible mechanic "generally speaking.... and moreover this FWP thing is set at mythic rarity. Same rarity as polukranos and master of waves... and giest of st.traft last season. . . not that that matters much.

What does matter is that punisher cards have to be between:
Really good
Awesome.
Otherwise they're kinda suck contributions.

This thing will never really do its job, it will land as the creature that they have the best answer to at that moment. So if terror, or wrath, then 5/5 while if Exile effects then 3/3.

A lot of shit has to change between now and later in terms of creatures vs available removal for that card to be relavant and it good but we're sure as hell no where near that yet.

nSo while it could of been printed in some other form and been a house in the format, it was not, and is not.

What if they don't have removal? Is it good then? Should all creatures without EtB abilities be cast aside just because your opponent might kill it?

Also, a lot of people have been saying that they'll give you the 3/3 if they have Detention Sphere (or "exile effects", in your case). Goes to show that you haven't really thought this card through much at all.

Should I take 3 or 0?

Magic is hard...

Also, I should point out that I think the card is fine. Yes, giving your opponent a choice is always bad but both modes on this card represent an undercosted threat that must be answered.

That's why comparing this card to Vexing Devil is just wrong. At no point can your opponent decide to just pay some one-time negligible amount of life without having to also invest time, cards, or mana if they don't feel like dealing with it. Yeah, they'll choose the mode that's easier for them to deal with, but they do actually still have to deal with it. That's a pretty huge difference.

Yeah, what he said. It's not "burn or creature" where the choice often blanks the card completely. It's creature or creature, both of which are undercosted.

SECONDLY, That being said its laughable of all the people saying "OMFG That card would be ~insert bullshit word for overpowered here~", BECAUSE, they make "Obscene" shit all the time so its not unreasonable for anyone to want this seasons insane card to be in the color they prefer

This thing will never really do its job, it will land as the creature that they have the best answer to at that moment. So if terror, or wrath, then 5/5 while if Exile effects then 3/3.

I don't follow you, you want them to make overpowered cards in red (I assume) to make up for overpowered cards in others, why don't you
ask them to simply balance sets better?

Vexing Devil was bad because if you wanted it to be a creature, it wasn't, and if you wanted it to be 4 damage, it was a creature, this thing is always a creature, samething with browbeat, they did two different things and were unreliable at doing either, this thing is ALWAYS a creature meaning they ALWAYS have to have the removal/blocker for it.

Should I take 3 or 0?

I'm gonna take 0, this time red, but I'm going to say I think its generally because I want something better right there, but hey thats just me. It still at a cc where you want a hellrider or *sigh* Fanatic, but also near where you want a Thundermaw/stormbreath whatever. You are right though they do have to spend a card on it, so maybe it is *fine* as it *Not very good* and that's what I believe, its not a very good card.

I don't follow you, you want them to make overpowered cards in red (I assume) to make up for overpowered cards in others, why don't you ask them to simply balance sets better?

Well, because I don't think they are going to balance sets (taking what you mean to say "Cards may only be this tall"). They really very rarely have. Its actually more realistic in my humble opinion to hope for this seasons
busted card to be in your Color. Or at least that what I've seen almost every season. They tend to "balance" by printing more answers, with mixed results, and often slow timing.
Even at that there's going to be a "wheat from the chaf..." process between cards. This is just a chaff card.
Regardless of what I'd LIKE it to be... and regardless of what it might be in a season, it's is a "poor card" RIGHT NOW.
I don't think anyone is looking forward to putting this in deck right now, now... well maybe now that I'm shitting on it. (but that's just because a goodly number of us get our jollies proving others wrong.)

It is possible that I've fallen into the trap thinking were supposed to have GREAT creature cards in red at 4cc, Hellrider and Falkenrath Aristocrat level things.
To be fair, When exava came out I said similar negative things, didn't like her, don't like here, she's not really doing too much, and I wish she was...
I look at this like that, I could
be wrong, but it'll take a lot more from the set to make this phoenix choice over either Stormbreath or Fanatic.

We do have hammer of pouphrous, and that makes it a better build consideration in devotion decks or some R/X midrange, but on its own. I'm fairly underwhelmed.
The irksome thing is that you're, none of you, is saying "MIDNIGHT_V! This card is great!" you're just arguing "Midnight_v your card idea is broke" or "Midnight_v this card is not shit! Its fine". To which I think... if your argument is "This card is not shit" sure. you win,
Yet, it isn't "Great" either, and I personally was waiting... am waiting... for something great.

Edit: I slept on it. I think maybe just maybe this thing could have a place in a deck that wants to run 4 hammer of purphoros, but I think that fanatic fits it better still.

These cards are nothing special and the Phoenix probably will not see play because Fanatic gives you value on ETB and eats up a 4 slot in red decks. I don't know why you need 8 paragraphs to say that and if you're not saying that then you're wasting your time.

The card is worse than the card in the slot it is competing for. It is the same reason no one plays Ogre Battledriver and for a long time no one played Hellrider. The issue is that the card that is better than it is in the same block as it.

If you happened to have Exava out the opponent would be forced to give you the hasty 3/3 that goes back to your hand if/when it dies (or deal with a hasty 5/5 flier).

These cards are nothing special and the Phoenix probably will not see play because Fanatic gives you value on ETB and eats up a 4 slot in red decks. I don't know why you need 8 paragraphs to say that and if you're not saying that then you're wasting your time.

Cause people wanted to argue for ... idk... "Reasons". Yeah thats what I said... and ironically was also wasting my time.
"O' succinct one".

Creture — Phoenix 2RR Mythic Rare
Flying
Tribute 2 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may place two +1/+1 counters on it)

When Flame-Wreathed Phoenix enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, it gains haste and "When this creature dies, return it to its owner's hand."

So much for getting a 4cc to match Hellrider. I just don't see this not getting its tribute.

The Phoenix doesn't even worth the mythic slot. Why can't it return to my hand even if it dies as a 5/5.

The way they should change the phoenix

Flame-wreathed
Phoenix
Creture — Phoenix 2RR Mythic Rare
Flying
Tribute 2 (As this creature enters the battlefield, an opponent of your choice may place two +1/+1 counters on it)

When Flame-Wreathed Phoenix enters the battlefield, if tribute wasn't paid, it gains haste.

Whenever an opponent is dealt damage by a red instant or sorcery spell you control or by a red planeswalker you control, return Flame-wreathed Phoenix from your graveyard to your hand.

Now that is a mythic rare truly worth Mythic .....

I'll admit I didn't like Flame-Wreathed Phoenix when I first saw it, but Green seems to be getting a huge buff - if Green does become the real deal Flame-Wreathed Phoenix might really have a home.

I have serious issue with the contention that Fanatic of Mogis is better than the Phoenix. Fanatic of Mogis is awful.

like desecration demon

I seriously cannot understand the continued arguments for Fanatic of Mogis over Flame-Wreathed Phoenix.

First off, in most cases people are trying to compare apples and hand grenades. If you happen to be talking about playing Mono Red Devotion, then and only then is FoM possibly worthy of consideration, and even there it's not a forgone conclusion in BNG Standard. Black just picked up a T3-ready sweeper that for all intents and purposes is going to hose curving out to a big devotion drop, so Fanatic's future as well as that of the archetype in general are suspect at best. OTOH, Phoenix is an undercosted flyer on either side of the Tribute coin, and there are currently playable cards in Standard (Hammer and Exava, for example) that can twist the Tribute clause. Moreover, as MDU mentioned, a midrange Gruul Monsters deck seems inevitable and potentially quite
powerful...Phoenix would not be the lone choice at 4 in such a deck, but it's certainly a playable with cards like Xenagos hitting the scene.

But beyond all the synergy talk (as Fanatic is after all very synergy-dependent), look at the cards in a vacuum:

-Fanatic of Mogis hits an empty board as a 4/2 with no evasion or haste, dealing a single point of damage to the opponent.
-Flame-Wreathed Phoenix hits an empty board as either a hasted 3/3 recurring flyer or a 5/5 vanilla flyer.

In what reality is Fanatic even remotely comparable to Phoenix in the same slot? There are a multitude of playable cards that generate easy chumps for Mogis...if he misses his payload, he is an awful card to have in-hand when you're behind or in less-than-stellar board position. Phoenix, on the other hand, provides an evasive creature on either side of the Tribute split that must be addressed both in terms of offense and defense.

Bottom line, [card:
1a3vnenq]Hellrider[/card] and Falkenrath Aristocrat are naught but memories in the 4 slot...we all need to start looking at incoming cards in terms of what we are working with now, not our historical icons. Phoenix, while not perfect, is undercosted evasion that impacts the board, and will hold potential for play in Rx decks.

I was talking about decks that would actually be good, if that helps you.

I was talking about decks that would actually be good, if that helps you.

Evidentiary example? Or are you just being a churlish, contrary twit as a matter of habit?

I was talking about decks that would actually be good, if that helps you.

Evidentiary example? Or are you just being a churlish, contrary twit as a matter of habit?

Didn't he get the memo that using the word "churlish" invalidates anything he ever says again?

Don't really care which card is better, just wanted to say that I love our "rumor mill."

I've been a great help

You're all wrong and/or stupid since it's intrinsically obvious that this season is all about the Borderland Minotaur.

You're all wrong and/or stupid since it's intrinsically obvious that this season is all about the Borderland Minotaur.

The day when someone puts that in a deck and wins a major tourney with it...

One FOs member gets to put one thing of his/her choice in your mouth. Deal?

You're all wrong and/or stupid since it's intrinsically obvious that this season is all about the Borderland Minotaur.

Needs haste, +2/+2, flying and indestructible before it's not trash.

Intrinsically good card though, because your opponent doesn't get to make a choice.