Dies to Removal

Sorry, I should keep the sarcasm to a minimum. Seriously though, last time you were all 100% certain when I didn't think you were right, we lynched a townie. I'm not doing that again. Sorry Az, but I lost my confidence in your plans.

Either you're lynched or no one is.

Yeah, I'm aware this isn't an ordinary game. That's why we need to push for a no lynch.

Even factoring in the fact this isn't an ordinary game, mafia is still ultimately a game of information, we don't gain any information about the set up/scum via a no lynch, if anything the scum gain more because they are making the decisions, and they are controlling who dies.

A no lynch favors them, as they are the ones making decisions, we must be proactive in our approach

A no lynch favors them less than a mislynch, which is what I'm sure we're about to get if we go with the information we have. Waiting a day gives us powers and the chance to learn much more. CK will have his vig shot and we can leverage that like the lynch we lose today.

Debatable, now assuming we are in a vanilla setup,in a scenario where the town does lynch it puts more pressure on the scum and makes it harder for them to blend (ultimately what scum want to do), as it gives the town information (ultimately scum cannot simply decide to lynch someone) and you it eliminates potential mislynch targets for scum to hide behind

In a scenario where you don't lynch, you don't play to your win condition (lynching scum), and you don't pressure scum, they are free to night kill whoever because they have plenty of people to hide behind

You want to play to your win condition more often than not.

You want to play to your win condition more often than not.

This statement admits that some times you don't play to your win condition.

We're on a magic forum, I'm going to use a Magic example. I was playing in a Legacy tournament with my Jank Ass Clerics deck. I was at four life, had three zombies in play, and my opponent attacked me with seven elves. I tapped my Shepherd of Rot, taking myself to one life and my opponent looked at me like I was crazy. I generated some more zombie tokens, shat all over his attacking elves and killed him the next turn. It was close and without the extra three life we both lost, I wouldn't have been able to do it.

My point is, sometimes you gotta sacrifice something to gain something. Sometimes, when it looks like you're not playing to your win condition, you're doing the best thing you can.

The other four townies get to finish building powers and Imopen can retry the cop thing so we can be more certain.

Please explain how Imopen coming up with another cop result tells us *anything*.

We still have only chance to lynch correctly. We can either trust Imopen's word today, or trust his word then, and a 2nd result that could be equally fake makes no difference.

The advantage of taking an actual lynch shot today is that it won't end the game. We'll have two shots to get it right, not just a single one. It's less useful to worry about mislynching, than it is to worry about the consequences of when you mislynch, or who you mislynch. We don't want *one* shot to get it right with lots of information. We want two or possibly three shots to get it right, and our 2nd shot will have even more information than we'd get if we no-lynched today. But we don't get multiple shots if we let Imopen skate through today. We only have one way to deal with him, the lynch, and it won't be ready in time.

Did you read my analysis that demonstrates that the only scum team which you believe in as a possibility that can feasibly win is a Red/Imopen team? If it's a single scum, no matter who it is, they've already lost, even if we mislynch AND mis-vig AND mislynch someone again. That's not what you have to worry about. The only thing that can stop us now, is if we fail to play safe against the two-scum gambit.

Are you telling me that scum doesn't have a nightkill, or are you trying to distort the options in order to pilot DK to do what you say?

From DK's perspective, anyways. I'm not sure it's quite so cut and dried as that, but I do know we're probably going down in flames if we mislynch on me, leave someone who's demonstrated inexplicable untargetability alive, and eliminate the only guy who took steps to give CK another vig-shot for tomorrow.

If you want I can submit plans for a chronoboost as well.
It takes just one day, doesn't it?

From DK's perspective, anyways. I'm not sure it's quite so cut and dried as that, but I do know we're probably going down in flames if we mislynch on me, leave someone who's demonstrated inexplicable untargetability alive, and eliminate the only guy who took steps to give CK another vig-shot for tomorrow.

If you want I can submit plans for a chronoboost as well.
It takes just one day, doesn't it?

It used to, at least. I've had a ton of PMs with Stardust recently and in one of them he mentioned that building something submitted on a previous day doesn't count as one of your invention submissions unless the time requirement changes. That says to me that time requirements can change, but I can't say for sure if they have.

Sorry, I should keep the sarcasm to a minimum. Seriously though, last time you were all 100% certain when I didn't think you were right, we lynched a townie. I'm not doing that again. Sorry Az, but I lost my confidence in your plans.

Either you're lynched or no one is.

I didn't say I was 100% certain on Ham. I said I was 95% certain on GR,75% certain that Ham was scum, but that his case was NOT as solid as GR's, partly because I couldn't substantiate firm reads on anyone else due to epic amounts of lurking from most of the playerbase, and I was 100% certain that going after CK without giving him a chance to respond was a really bad idea.

People didn't think I was right about GR either, remember? Almost the entire town thought I was nuts, until he flipped.

I'm not 100% certain that Imopen and Red are the scum team, here. It's *possible* that someone tampered with his ability since *for some reason* he felt it necessary to claim it yesterday before it went off, which makes no sense to me at all for a townie to do. It's *possible* that it's a coincidence that RN built the exact same device, and used it on Imopen. But I'm feeling like a broken record here, in stating that that theory still doesn't account for CK's missing vig kill. To which you reply, CK could be the person who tampered with Imopen, and is lying about his kill.

But Mojo was already gunning for Mojo as of Day 2, and telegraphed that Imopen was going to be his kill target way back on D1, then followed up with questions about Imopen's ability use on Day 2. Why do you think a scum Mojo would have done that? There's no way he could have foreseen this exact scenario, and then prepared those lies in advance. Mojo was actualy getting ready to declare Imopen confirmed town, depending on how he answered. Mojo and CK are both telling the truth about the failed kill.

Can you explain to me what Mojo/CK could have possibly had to gain as scum from going through those motions yesterday and D1? How do you explain that, if there was no failed kill on Imopen?

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

The other four townies get to finish building powers and Imopen can retry the cop thing so we can be more certain.

Please explain how Imopen coming up with another cop result tells us *anything*.

We still have only chance to lynch correctly. We can either trust Imopen's word today, or trust his word then, and a 2nd result that could be equally fake makes no difference.

The advantage of taking an actual lynch shot today is that it won't end the game. We'll have two shots to get it right, not just a single one. It's less useful to worry about mislynching, than it is to worry about the consequences of when you mislynch, or who you mislynch. We don't want *one* shot to get it right with lots of information. We want two or possibly three shots to get it right, and our 2nd shot will have even more information than we'd get if we no-lynched today. But we don't get multiple shots if we let Imopen skate through today. We only have one way to deal with him, the lynch, and it won't be ready in time.

Did you read my analysis that demonstrates that the only scum team which you believe in as a possibility that can feasibly win is a Red/Imopen team? If it's a single scum, no matter who it is, they've already lost, even if we mislynch AND mis-vig AND mislynch someone again. That's not what you have to worry about. The only thing that can stop us now, is if we fail to play safe against the two-scum gambit.

Are you telling me that scum doesn't have a nightkill, or are you trying to distort the options in order to pilot DK to do what you say?

Read my previous posts. Mislynch, misvig, mislynch is STILL a win for the town due to a RB on the remaining scum.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Votecount!

Azrael (2): imopen2, RedNihilist
No Lynch (1): Dechs Kaison

Not voting: Azrael, Col. Khaddafi, Lord_Mcdonalds

With 6 alive, it's 4 to lynch.


Time for a deadline? Sure! Don't mind if I do!

Deadline set for exactly 7 days from the time of this post, Tuesday Oct 28 at noon. Deadline Clock.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

Do we in this game?

Didn't think so.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

Do we in this game?

Didn't think so.

Yes...we do. CK and I have had this conversation twice, back and forth.


All living players deny responsibility. So, all living townies are ruled out.

GR was already dead, so it wasn't him.

Ham declared at post 861, IIRC, that he was building his bat device. Rez built his comm device. I stated this publicly, while he was alive, and he did not contradict me. That's everyone.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

Do we in this game?

Didn't think so.

Yes...we do. CK and I have had this conversation twice, back and forth.


All living players deny responsibility. So, all living townies are ruled out.

GR was already dead, so it wasn't him.

Ham declared at post 861, IIRC, that he was building his bat device. Rez built his comm device. I stated this publicly, while he was alive, and he did not contradict me. That's everyone.

Are you fucking kidding me? We have no idea what LMD has or hasn't done. We have no idea what CK really has done. We have no idea what Red has done. We have no idea what you've done. Any one in that list could be scum and setting this shit up.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

Do we in this game?

Didn't think so.

Yes...we do. CK and I have had this conversation twice, back and forth.


All living players deny responsibility. So, all living townies are ruled out.

GR was already dead, so it wasn't him.

Ham declared at post 861, IIRC, that he was building his bat device. Rez built his comm device. I stated this publicly, while he was alive, and he did not contradict me. That's everyone.

Are you fucking kidding me? We have no idea what LMD has or hasn't done. We have no idea what CK really has done. We have no idea what Red has done. We have no idea what you've done. Any one in that list could be scum and setting this shit up.

Are you arguing that CK claimed a failed vig on Imopen to...implicate his buddy?

And Red's alignment is linked to CK. There's no room for LMD or CK to be scum, if Imopen is scum.

Red alignment is linked to Imopen*.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

Do we in this game?

Didn't think so.

Thank you for seeing through Az's manipulative bullshit

Also, you're looking at this completely backward. What scum would have been "setting this up", way back on D2?

What scum would have had an ability to use to protect Imopen, during the day, and WANT to use it, when he could have reaped a free kill by letting it happen?

We've verified that the kill could only have come from scum. If you think that some friendly scum helped save a townie Imopen...I don't even know what.

We have a verified, failed kill on Imopen. CK isn't lying - look at the thread. And if CK isn't lying, Imopen is guilty as sin. No townie was responsible for that failed kill, and no scum would have used a protection ability on Imopen during the day, on Day Two. You don't have to take it on faith from me, think it through for yourself.

This is the exact reasoning I used to push the final mislynch to win the game as scum in Gone Postal.

Did you have the actions of every single townie and scum player accounted for, in that game?

Do we in this game?

Didn't think so.

Thank you for seeing through Az's manipulative bullshit

Where did I say that? I don't believe the two scum team, so of course I'm not implicating CK set up his buddy. Of course there's no room for LMD or CK to be scum if Imopen is scum. There's only one scum left.

A failed vig kill means nothing to me. I'm telling you, I set up a town on town failed vig and it won me the game.

Also, you're looking at this completely backward. What scum would have been "setting this up", way back on D2?

What scum would have had an ability to use to protect Imopen, during the day, and WANT to use it, when he could have reaped a free kill by letting it happen?

We've verified that the kill could only have come from scum. If you think that some friendly scum helped save a townie Imopen...I don't even know what.

Scum didn't know who MoJo was going to shoot. He was certainly a loose cannon. They could have sabotaged his invention on that grounds alone, the night before. Then scum didn't risk getting vigged and could use the failed shot to implicate a townie.

That's EXACTLY what I did.

Where did I say that? I don't believe the two scum team, so of course I'm not implicating CK set up his buddy. Of course there's no room for LMD or CK to be scum if Imopen is scum. There's only one scum left.

A failed vig kill means nothing to me. I'm telling you, I set up a town on town failed vig and it won me the game.

I don't see how the logistics could possibly work here. The scum jailer/roleblocker was already dead.

Your theoretical scum in this scenario would have needed to have either:

A) Another day doctor or day RB ability. (Note, GR's abilities could only be used at night, so even a copycat ability wouldn't work.) That's not believable.

B) A master builder ability , which he somehow knew to prepare on N1 to gain himself a day doctor/RB ability.

Mojo didn't vow that he was going to blow away Imopen the next day. If he had, yeah, you could argue that he could have set up a failed vig. I'm guessing in your scum game, you knew that the vig was coming, and so you were able to counter it because of that, right?

The scum didn't know that, here. If they didn't even know it was coming, how could they have stopped it?

How about that saboteur ability we're theorizing? We knew day one that MoJo was building a day kill. Sabotage it at night, it fails during the day.

*frowns* A RB at the source from a Master builder could have worked, I guess. Mojo said he was firing, at *someone.* But that's only plausible if the scum have a master builder.

I don't buy that they would have had TWO RBers, one of which was day capable, in this game.

How about that saboteur ability we're theorizing? We knew day one that MoJo was building a day kill. Sabotage it at night, it fails during the day.

I guess. But again, we're operating WAY off in conjecture land here.

For this theory of yours to work, we're assuming that imopen's ability was tampered with, AND that CK's vig-kill was tampered with, by a third-party, without any reason to believe that the scum have one of those abilities.

Plus, if it were a sabotage device like you said, then I don't think Imopen should have gotten any results. It should have simply failed to work, as did CK's vig.

A device sabotage is perfectly reasonable to expect from Stardust. It would also explain the no night kill Night 1 because there should be only one scum left. Using the ability takes the place of the night kill (according to Stardust's previous setups). Boom. Solved.

A device sabotage is perfectly reasonable to expect from Stardust. It would also explain the no night kill Night 1 because there should be only one scum left. Using the ability takes the place of the night kill (according to Stardust's previous setups). Boom. Solved.

...but we had a kill on the night that you theorize Imopen was tampered with...

How about that saboteur ability we're theorizing? We knew day one that MoJo was building a day kill. Sabotage it at night, it fails during the day.

For this theory of yours to work, we're assuming that imopen's ability was tampered with, AND that CK's vig-kill was tampered with, by a third-party, without any reason to believe that the scum have one of those abilities.

Plus, if it were a sabotage device like you said, then I don't think Imopen should have gotten any results. It should have simply failed to work, as did CK's vig.

This is one of the reasons I still suspect you. I mean, you were MoJo's first implicated target. If you had the sabotage ability, you could easily have done it to MoJo and Imopen's result is true.

A device sabotage is perfectly reasonable to expect from Stardust. It would also explain the no night kill Night 1 because there should be only one scum left. Using the ability takes the place of the night kill (according to Stardust's previous setups). Boom. Solved.

...but we had a kill on the night that you theorize Imopen was tampered with...

Which could mean you're the saboteur.

It's not like we've seen any of your inventions do anything to verify you're a master builder.

And there is a whole universe of abilities that would be reasonable to expect for Stardust to give the scum. For instance, a broad-based immunity to town devices.

I don't think he'd go that far. His abilities are certainly creative and work within the setup.

Example is from that Gone Postal. There was a mail system that everyone could use. Ham's vig shot was tied to the mail as a mail bomb. One of the scum's abilities (the one we used to sabotage that vig), was a mail randomizer.

They don't work counter to the setup, as a "immune from devices" when all town can do is build devices.

It's not like we've seen any of your inventions do anything to verify you're a master builder.

So I pulled the running out of pieces bit out of my nether regions?

Valid point.

It doesn't negate the possibility that you're a scum master builder and built two of the theorized sabotage devices.

And I not only gave up the mafia NK, but prevented a town controlled vig on top of that, and then stuck my neck way out to save CK and kill Ham after bussing the hell out of GR on day one?

Apparently, I'm the WORST mafia player of all time.

Unless that wording was given to you in the quick topic where you spoke with Rez.

Oh shit, that could explain why Rez died.

If I were building sabotage devices, seems like it might have been smart to sabotage the guy who said he was going to investigate two people tomorrow and went on record that he hated and suspected my guts against all reason. Just saying.

Instead, I supposedly killed...Rezombad? Because I saw the vig from mojo coming on D1 but didn't see Imopen coming when he shouted it from the rooftops?

Now that's WIFOM.