[Fedoras of Salvation] - White Knights ITT

[photodyer]

@Zeman - You know how I feel about Shrine...that card alone allowed my son to learn Magic playing RDW in a meta that really wasn't friendly to it. Shrine was such outrageous inevitability...outrace it or die. We are far from the brewers you are, but we've been unable to come up with anything (even at the kitchen table) that comes close to that kind of burn pressure, especially considering that we had the Proliferate mechanic as a bonus multiplier. Ah, good times...

BTW, what tweaks did you make to the black vamp deck? That deck just fits my mood and head space right now (dark)...I would appreciate your thoughts on it as a starting point (I at least got the deck loaded into MTGO before having to waste the rest of my morning dealing with my ex-wifes financial fiascoes).

@Kaze - I think your screen name is flows quite naturally...of course I knew it from the source. Soul Calibur II was the first GameCube title I bought that my son was not allowed (at the time) to play (No, I was not dealing with him discovering a character like Ivy and the questions that were likely to arise from it!!!). On the subject of lands, I always get full sets of everything to leave my possibilities open. Of course, that's not too difficult if you're me and go to 2 or 3 prereleases for each set (with my son as well). My nephew laughs at me because every PR cycle involving rare lands that I've done so far has been comic irony. I will as a rule pull rare lands for at least half my rares at a PR table...outstanding value, sorry as hell for competitive play. At M13 I pulled one of each checkland between 2 flights...just damned silly. For GTC, I had a full playset of Godless Shrine along with numerous other Shocks by the time Release Day sealed was done.

[Alex]

I'll get an "official spoiler" thread going over in the Rumor Mill section specifically for you people who are blocked at work. Just give me a few minutes to gather the relevant information.

[zemanjaski]

@ Jerry. I just cut Blood Artists for more removal and a 4th Nocturnus. I think it was +1 Tribute and +1 Victim of Night but I don't think it is super important.

[photodyer]

I'll get an "official spoiler" thread going over in the Rumor Mill section specifically for you people who are blocked at work. Just give me a few minutes to gather the relevant information.

Prince Eric, you are my heeero!

[photodyer]

@ Jerry. I just cut Blood Artists for more removal and a 4th Nocturnus. I think it was +1 Tribute and +1 Victim of Night but I don't think it is super important.

Specifically, were you happy with Devour in the main? I'm tempted to run Murder in that deck as well simply because it should have no problem casting it.

[zemanjaski]

Its OK. Being cheap is nice. I liked the Tributes a little more because the lifegain is actually important at the moment. Giving them life doesn't really matter of course.

The best cards in the deck were Victim, Tribute, Bloodline Keeper and Staff of Nin. Nighthawk ranged from just OK to garbage. Blood Artist was complete garbage and was the first thing sideboarded out in every match (it doesn't do enough when you cannot take an aggressive posture, and it cannot block...). Nocturnus was just fine, but was actively good once you had anything else in play.

Honestly, it wouldnt surprise me if a deck built around Blood Keeper plus Nighthawk splashing red for certain cards, and adding Liliana was just much better. You wouldn't get these awkward pseudo-beatdown lines at least ~ getting the wrong sort of "aggro" draw against Control is awful (ie: multiple nighthawks / nocturnus).

[Alex]

By the way, for those of you browsing on Android phones specifically, do you find it easier to see images all in one post or is it simpler to split them up into separate posts?

I know on iOS it lays them out nicer for me if I split them up, but I'm just wondering.

[zemanjaski]

Fine for me either way (iPhone).

[zemanjaski]

Alright, brewing hats on gentlemen. Is there a (probably) grixis master of cruelties deck? Some immediate thoughts:
- Master does does some removal (eg: Abrupt Decay and Ultimate Price). If we use a haste enabler, he will also dodge any sorcery speed stuff.
- Your removal, which buys time to combo off, also doubles as a win-con in this deck, which isn't the worst.
- Master isn't the worst defensive card ever against the weenie aggro decks.
- Splashing blue lets you find combo pieces more easily, and gives access to counters (probably relevant?)

As I see it, the big issues are:
1. finding the pieces in a timely manner
2. protecting the combo / enabling it
3. winning from that position

Thoughts:
1. this really does push blue I think. The Heartless Havengul combo last season was able to put all its cards into the GY, and thus rely on cards like Faithless Looting, Thought Scour, Desperate Ravings in addition to
Ponder. We don't quite have that luxury, but maybe there are still some ideas we can draw on? Looting and Forbidden Alchemy are powerful seach tools anyway, and strict CA might not matter that much in a combo deck.
2. counterspells are an option. Playing an effect like Heartless Summoning or Fervour to accelerate might also work (he just needs to hit, not do damage). Turn 2 Heartless into Turn 3 Fervour into Turn 4 Demon plus hit? Probably reaching a bit, but could be a thing? Another option might be Undying Evil which would also protect against some other problems. One issue? The combo probably cannoy beat an Azorius Charm in game 1?
3. any red removal spell will do the trick, so this isn't a huge issue.

Look, it is RAW as hell, but I have a new pet project

[zemanjaski]

Racecourse Fury?

Yes, I am going deep.

[Dodger]

Advent the Wurm giving mid range more options. At least you can't blink it with Resto

[windstrider]

If he can attack unblocked with a Hellrider on board, wouldn't they be dead? Or would the damage hit them before his ability?

[zemanjaski]

Hellrider's ability triggers when they turn sideways (during declare attackers).
Master's ability triggers when he is unblocked (so during declare blockers).

As far as I can tell (not a rules expert), there isn't a combo there.

[Calamity]

Red aggro had better get some damn good options from DGM.

Because midrange needed 5/5's for four that are also combat tricks/suprise blockers.

[photodyer]

Trying to play Master + another card to tap will be mana-intensive in the same turn; going separate turns, Master > Sleep, swing, Spear. Otherwise, you could do Dega--Fervor on the board or other haste condition in-hand, EOT on them Aurelia's Fury to tap all their creatures, untap on your turn, Master (and haster?) swing. Honestly, Racecourse Fury or Fervor are the best-protected options...until that new split card comes out in Boros colors. Having to hit 7 mana for Master + Mauler is steep.

[zemanjaski]

I think the tap abilities you're trying are too big, isnt there a make unblockable spell for U? I think there is a guy jumping down a well in the picture.

[zemanjaski]

For protection (phrasing!) there is Dispel/Negate; Undying Evil and Mizzium Skin.

[windstrider]

Hellrider's ability triggers when they turn sideways (during declare attackers).
Master's ability triggers when he is unblocked (so during declare blockers).

As far as I can tell (not a rules expert), there isn't a combo there.

Damn. And that would have worked so nicely otherwise.

Artful Dodge is what you're thinking of.

[windstrider]

Hellrider's ability triggers when they turn sideways (during declare attackers).
Master's ability triggers when he is unblocked (so during declare blockers).

As far as I can tell (not a rules expert), there isn't a combo there.

Damn. And that would have worked so nicely otherwise.

Artful Dodge is what you're thinking of.

Glaring Spotlight would also work. Bonus hexproof.

[zemanjaski]

You can just kill them with Bump in the Night or any Burn Spell; I think getting in a guaranteed hit first is more important.

If we're on the haste plan (no idea if it is good or not); then Dispel seems best ~ protects from instant speed removal and Azorius Charm. Mizzium Skin is similar but would not protect from instant-speed edict effects.

[zemanjaski]

Spotlight is kinda 2 birds in one stone as well; but you probably cannot 'combo off' in one turn due to the activation cost (easier to do with the 1 casting cost enablers I suppose).

I really want this to work. The big selling point for me is that so little removal stops the combo if you're running the right enablers, and you can Cavern to get it into play...

[zemanjaski]

The biggest obstacle I am finding is the lack of good filtering to find the pieces. Faithless Looting's draw back is pretty irrelevant when you're pitching redundant copies of combo pieces anyway, so that is really good. Forbidden Alchemy is obviously amazing. However, the inability to combo out of the GY makes the other two attractive cards (Thought Scour and Desperate Ravings) probably unplayable ~ milling 1 of your 4 Masters would be horrible Is there anything else?

[windstrider]

Izzet Charm. Draw 2, Discard two. Also serves as counterspell.

[zemanjaski]

Are there any other creatures we can use as enablers through the Heartless Summoning engine? Maybe some of the AVR soulbond guys....will report back.

Faithless Looting with enough redundant effects (and GY relevant cards) get close to 'cycle 2' which is really nice.

[windstrider]

Hey photo. Sorry to hear about the troubles with the ex again. There's gotta be a way around that.

'Night all. Time for me to turn into a pumpkin.

[Kazekirimaru]

Here's what I want to know: who or what is a zemanjaski?

Kaze - Here is my recipe for obtaining my shocks:

(1) Build Red Deck (Collaborate with FoS members for best results.)

(2) Take Red Deck to an FNM and burn the place down with the competition.

(3) Get "in the money" as often as you can.

(4) Accumulate store credit until new set comes out.

(5) Decide what will be good from the new set (for example, shocklands).

(6) Go nuts and buy a box or two and the singles from the new set while they're on the cheap.

(7) Use contents from the box that you don't need to trade more stuff (for example, shocklands).

(8)
Upgrade your deck with your new loot or build a different deck.

(9) Repeat steps 1-9.

(10) Tell redthirst he is a beautiful man with a nice, large crank. Repeat this step as needed.

I hope this doesn't sound cocky or arrogant but it's been working for me for a few months now. In the coming months, I'll get rid of some things that will rotate out and have no use in Modern to raise funds for Theros.

Well, my LGS does prize packs rather than store credit, unfortunately. And I have horrid luck with those(anybody need four motherfucking Search the City?)

I can repeat step ten over and over, though.

@Kaze - I think your screen name is flows quite naturally...of course I knew it from the source.
Soul Calibur II was the first GameCube title I bought that my son was not allowed (at the time) to play (No, I was not dealing with him discovering a character like Ivy and the questions that were likely to arise from it!!!). On the subject of lands, I always get full sets of everything to leave my possibilities open. Of course, that's not too difficult if you're me and go to 2 or 3 prereleases for each set (with my son as well). My nephew laughs at me because every PR cycle involving rare lands that I've done so far has been comic irony. I will as a rule pull rare lands for at least half my rares at a PR table...outstanding value, sorry as hell for competitive play. At M13 I pulled one of each checkland between 2 flights...just damned silly. For GTC, I had a full playset of Godless Shrine along with numerous other Shocks by the time Release Day sealed was done.

It's nice to see someone else who shares my console gaming preferences a bit! Soul Calibur II was the second GameCube
game I bought, right after Super Smash Bros. Melee. I clocked at least 300 hours on that game. Such fond memories. This is making me wanna find my GC and plug it in.

Anyhow, I went to the last prerelease once. That's all I could afford(and I had to sell my pair of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage to acquire the funds) yet all I pulled was one Sacred Foundry. I'd go multiple times, but, money. =/

EDIT: I just looked at tonight's spoilers. Master of Cruelties? That shit is amazeballs. They might as well have just wrote "destroy target blocking creature or destroy target player." That + Unblockability + Burn spell = game.

I'm really liking DGM so far.

[photodyer]

Sorry guys, I'm going to be touch & go for a bit--very busy night here.

@Windstrider - Good morning, brother! Good call on the diving mutant Dodge...I remember you were looking at that card in Tres Grixis!

@Zeman - Sorry for thinking big instead of efficient...I blame redthirst's member's influence since he's back (so sue me...someone's gotta drop the references while Khaos is sleeping...) The unblockable instant seems a good way to go. Haste would depend on what else we have in the deck, I'd guess. Uncanny Speed and Racecourse Fury are the cheapest same turn options for haste along with Mauler--all cost 2. Mauler is the best of those options IMO. Fervor seems better if we're building around...I would say hasty
tokens if not for the fact that we need blue.

RE Vamp Deck - Some final (I think) opinions:

1.) Are you talking disruption/sac Lily or land drop/Lashwrithe Lily? Both serve well in black control, especially with VNH in the mix.

2.) SPlash red for Temblor and RR with Olivia & Rakdos Charm in the side, or blue for countermagic? The only reason I'm thinking the latter is that the S Rev, AoS or Tusk that doesn't come down is easier better tempo-wise than killing or RRing after.

3.) [card]Curse of Death's Hold[/card] in the side for aggro? It would mean that even without a lord effect, most creatures will be at a combat disadvantage.

[zemanjaski]

1) playable Lili obviously
2) I think BR is a lot better with the other cards in the deck than UB. Only Thragtusk is an annoyance of the cards of the cards listed ~ the deck is already put together to beat the others pretty easily.
3) Yeah, I like Curse of Death's Hold a lot.

[photodyer]

1) playable Lili obviously
2) I think BR is a lot better with the other cards in the deck than UB. Only Thragtusk is an annoyance of the cards of the cards listed ~ the deck is already put together to beat the others pretty easily.
3) Yeah, I like Curse of Death's Hold a lot.

1.) I assumed LotV, but I will say that in M13 MBC big Lily won me some games. Let her hit after a sweeper, spend a few turns killing their stuff as it comes down and pulling lands to hit drops, then Lashwrithe effect on a VNH. She also is good with Nocturnus because you can reshuffle if black isn't up and you don't have SiB in-hand. Ugly Lily has her place...

2.) Coolio.

3.)
Me too. Love/hate...I love to get the card down and hate to see it across the table.

[Platypus]

1) playable Lili obviously
2) I think BR is a lot better with the other cards in the deck than UB. Only Thragtusk is an annoyance of the cards of the cards listed ~ the deck is already put together to beat the others pretty easily.
3) Yeah, I like Curse of Death's Hold a lot.

1.) I assumed LotV, but I will say that in M13 MBC big Lily won me some games. Let her hit after a sweeper, spend a few turns killing their stuff as it comes down and pulling lands to hit drops, then Lashwrithe
effect on a VNH. She also is good with Nocturnus because you can reshuffle if black isn't up and you don't have SiB in-hand. Ugly Lily has her place...

2.) Coolio.

3.) Me too. Love/hate...I love to get the card down and hate to see it across the table.

1. I think both Lilianas are great in the deck, perhaps with a slight edge to Liliana of the Dark Realms, for basically the same reasons Photo gave. That's what I thought when I considered them for my MBC deck last autumn.

2. I agree about BR vs. BU as well. What does blue give the deck really? But a second color messes with Nocturnus as well, so you want to stay with hybrid or multicolored cards if you add a color.

3. My only concern with CoDH is the mana cost. But ok, if you have lot's of removal and Mutilates as early sweepers against aggro deck, it might be enough to have time to stabilize and play CoDH. Against tokens you could use Illness in the Ranks, but that messes with you vampire tokens as well, som it's not
a good option.

[RedNihilist]

Here's what I want to know: who or what is a zemanjaski?

Kaze - Here is my recipe for obtaining my shocks:

(1) Build Red Deck (Collaborate with FoS members for best results.)

(2) Take Red Deck to an FNM and burn the place down with the competition.

(3) Get "in the money" as often as you can.

(4) Accumulate store credit until new set comes out.

(5) Decide what will be good from the new set (for example, shocklands).

(6) Go nuts and buy a box or two and the singles from the new set while they're on the cheap.

(7) Use contents from the box that you don't need to trade more stuff (for example, shocklands).

(8)
Upgrade your deck with your new loot or build a different deck.

(9) Repeat steps 1-9.

(10) Tell redthirst he is a beautiful man with a nice, large crank. Repeat this step as needed.

I hope this doesn't sound cocky or arrogant but it's been working for me for a few months now. In the coming months, I'll get rid of some things that will rotate out and have no use in Modern to raise funds for Theros.

Point 10 sounds VERY "cocky"

[photodyer]

I'm liking Sin Collector a lot...it fits with the split cards in reducing the number of cards needed to get relevant effects. I'd rather he was 2CMC to splat Farseek more often, but oh well.

[photodyer]

Point 10 sounds VERY "cocky"

Oh, come on now...don't get "hung" up on redthirst banter...

[photodyer]

It's nice to see someone else who shares my console gaming preferences a bit! Soul Calibur II was the second GameCube game I bought, right after Super Smash Bros. Melee. I clocked at least 300 hours on that game. Such fond memories. This is making me wanna find my GC and plug it in.

Anyhow, I went to the last prerelease once. That's all I could afford(and I had to sell my pair of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage to acquire the funds) yet all I pulled was one Sacred Foundry. I'd go multiple times, but, money. =/

Now SSBM you can talk with my son and another of my nephews...my son would spend his life playing SSB if I let him, and my nephew and a friend were pro-touring on it for a while. I loved SCII, but I'm pretty much a button-masher on console fighting games...I missed the curve by a few years and have never been as good with a controller as with WASD and a mouse (FPS obviously rather than
fighting games).

The comments about lands were more making fun of myself than real advice...my nephew still tells stories at my expense about my wacky luck with pulls. I actually hit one two flights for GTC that were limited-playable rather than contructed playable rare pulls. Every other sealed event in my life has been money pulls but no game.

[Kazekirimaru]

It's nice to see someone else who shares my console gaming preferences a bit! Soul Calibur II was the second GameCube game I bought, right after Super Smash Bros. Melee. I clocked at least 300 hours on that game. Such fond memories. This is making me wanna find my GC and plug it in.

Anyhow, I went to the last prerelease once. That's all I could afford(and I had to sell my pair of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage to acquire the funds) yet all I pulled was one Sacred Foundry. I'd go multiple times, but, money. =/

Now SSBM you can talk with my son and another of my nephews...my son would spend his life playing SSB if I let him, and my nephew and a friend were pro-touring on it for a while. I loved SCII, but I'm pretty much a
button-masher on console fighting games...I missed the curve by a few years and have never been as good with a controller as with WASD and a mouse (FPS obviously rather than fighting games).

The comments about lands were more making fun of myself than real advice...my nephew still tells stories at my expense about my wacky luck with pulls. I actually hit one two flights for GTC that were limited-playable rather than contructed playable rare pulls. Every other sealed event in my life has been money pulls but no game.

I remember playing SCII on PS2 first, then exchanging it at Gamestop for the GC version just because it had Link. I was never really good with him, though. Kilik is where it's at. I used to have every single combo memorized. Spent a good amount of time on SCIII, too. The story mode for your custom character on that game is awesome.

And I'd take money rares over limited-playable rares any day. Sure, it may make the night a bit more rough, but it's certainly better in
the long run. Pulling Lazav, Dimir Mastermind in GTC prerelease was good stuff for me that night, but now he's worth three dollars and has no place in standard. I'd much rather have another shockland.

[photodyer]

How funny...Kilik was who I drove my son nuts with once I deemed him old enough to play. He usually stomps me on the console (except on Mario Kart...I still can take him just because of understanding driving physics better than him), but if I played Kilik he was usually going down. Seriously messed with him...he hates losing to me!

Card pulls is a matter of perspective...when I go to a midnight sealed PR, I want to pull cards that make for fun play. Otherwise the night gets reallllly long and frustrating, especially when you think of it as paying retail for the cards and getting the added bonus of a tournament. I'd much rather get my money cards from booster boxes...but that's the attitude of an overgrown kid with supposedly discretionary income. We play "sugar packet Magic" to open boosters at home, and it tends to be less susceptible to meaningless rares since you can play everything in your deck.

[Colonel Nohman]

It's nice to see someone else who shares my console gaming preferences a bit! Soul Calibur II was the second GameCube game I bought, right after Super Smash Bros. Melee. I clocked at least 300 hours on that game. Such fond memories. This is making me wanna find my GC and plug it in.

Anyhow, I went to the last prerelease once. That's all I could afford(and I had to sell my pair of Tamiyo, the Moon Sage to acquire the funds) yet all I pulled was one Sacred Foundry. I'd go multiple times, but, money. =/

Now SSBM you can talk with my son and another of
my nephews...my son would spend his life playing SSB if I let him, and my nephew and a friend were pro-touring on it for a while. I loved SCII, but I'm pretty much a button-masher on console fighting games...I missed the curve by a few years and have never been as good with a controller as with WASD and a mouse (FPS obviously rather than fighting games).

The comments about lands were more making fun of myself than real advice...my nephew still tells stories at my expense about my wacky luck with pulls. I actually hit one two flights for GTC that were limited-playable rather than contructed playable rare pulls. Every other sealed event in my life has been money pulls but no game.

I remember playing SCII on PS2 first, then exchanging it at Gamestop for the GC version just because it had Link. I was never really good with him, though. Kilik is where it's at. I used to have every single combo memorized. Spent a good amount of time on SCIII, too. The story mode for your custom
character on that game is awesome.

And I'd take money rares over limited-playable rares any day. Sure, it may make the night a bit more rough, but it's certainly better in the long run. Pulling Lazav, Dimir Mastermind in GTC prerelease was good stuff for me that night, but now he's worth three dollars and has no place in standard. I'd much rather have another shockland.

Soul Calibur III has been one of my favorite game, ever. Its story mode has drained hours and hours of my life. I've always used Nightmare. A demon/knight with a soul-absorbing monster sword has to be played. Abyss and Night Terror too were really cool.

Anyway, good morining everyone. University has taken part of my time. The only revelant thing happened personally is that the "modern madness" has taken me again, so I'll go back in the format.

[Christen]

Oh look, 4 untapped lands in Naya Midrange could mean an additional card now



And this card wants to be in Grixis control decks.

[Colonel Nohman]

Oh look, 4 untapped lands in Naya Midrange could mean an additional card now

Really good card. If I were WoTC, I'd called it: "Tremors V: Vengeance".

[Lightning_Dolt]

Am I the only one who thought B/W/r Exalted was a good home for Master of Cruelty, since he attacks alone anyway?

Something like (and I apologize, this is very rough):

[deck]Creatures [28]
4 Duty-Bound Dead
4 Tormented Soul
3 Knight of Infamy
3 Knight of Glory
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Sublime Archangel
2 Master of Cruelty

Planeswalkers [2]
2 Ajani, Caller of the Pride

Spells [6]
4 Faith's Shield
2 Orzhov Charm

Lands [24]
3 Cavern of Souls
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Godless Shrine
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Blood Crypt
2 Swamps
1 Plains
1 Clifftop Retreat
4 Isolated Chapel
[/deck]