Dies to Removal

@imopen: it wasn't too late, I said rcw but I never really intended on jailing him, though he was a scum read of mine. I went back and forth between stardust for a third time, rce for being so obviously scummy with the hammer, and you with your "are we following stardust off a cliff? Oh well lets see what happens"

I might've taken heed of your word if you had mentioned that stardust was scum after the lynch

The town just got caught up in seeing newbie play as scummy. Ugh

I strongly.considered getting stardust for a third straight time... Ugh gg tho

Noooooooooooooooooo I was right all along!!!

If you are town, you aren't helping very much without explanations.

If you are scum, you are doing a bad job of throwing us off of the trail.

If TubeHunter is scum, I'm leaning towards rcwraspy.

If TubeHunter is town, gg lol

Why are you leaving imopen2 out of your calculations?

imopen, he's already been lynched.

Thoughts on who I should jail tonight? Considering I'm probably the NK target

I suppose there is a scenario 4 where the mafia choose not to kill anyone night 1, but that would never happen, right?

Which, if I'm not mistaken, all but confirms you as town?

Is this right?

Night 1;
scenario 1 - Stardust is scum and I stopped the nightkill.
scenario 2 - Iso is targeted with the NK and is stopped with HIS power.
scenario 3 - Stardust is targeted and I stopped the nightkill.

Night 2;
I figured if Stardust was scum, targeting him again would confirm it. Since the NK was not stopped, we can rule out scenario 1, I think (if I understand correctly how NK's work). So its either scenario 2 or 3, with Stardust being confirmed town this way.

If I am missing something, please point it out.

Hmm. There are only three suspects left (I'll let you guys do the work if you want to add me into the mix). Iso and rcwraspy as a scum team seems unlikely given rcw's oddly timed case on Iso and Iso's less than fair response. TubeHunter/rcw scumteam is a possibility. rcw would be bussing rather than jumping on Red's wagon Day 2? Meshes with his reluctance to vote Suga Day 1, actually, where he's reluctant to vote townies. I don't remember TubeHunter getting involved in rcw's case or defense (makes sense), but I'll have to reread that to make sure. TubeHunter/Iso? Quite possible given what I recall of Iso's reads this game. Did Iso get involved in Checkbox vs. Tube? Need to check that too. Why call Checkbox town late Day 1 though? Picked up PR vibes maybe,
but didn't want to kill someone who was suspected by everyone else? Possible. Missed with the Night 1 kill though...

Checkbox! Who did you target with your ability each night?

You both nights.

Also, I'm still planning on answering the piles of questions thrown at me since my last tl;dr. Haven't forgotten about them.

I'm the town Jailkeeper.

There is very good evidence in this thread that Iso is town.

And your vote on me without further reasoning is not helping you look more townie in my eyes.

Shouldve done this last day.

Vote: Checkbox

You should find real reasons for voting someone that don't involve OMGUS.

Checkbox, did you just hammer Red? Was there anything in addition to your post on the previous page that prompted it?

I said I thought they were all acting scummy and would be comfortable lynching any of them. People agreed on RedNihilist, so I waited for L-1 to make sure the support was there.

With that said, Vote: Tubehunter

He continues to remain my primary target for reasons discussed at length. I will respond to the questions that have been posed since my last tl;dr post, however I was in the hospital yesterday morning for severe back pain and am trying to get caught up on everything before I find time for this.

Sorry.
Unvote
Vote: RedNihilist

@Checkbox: As I said, my rcw case was weak and it caused me to reconsider my read on him.

We keep changing directions toDay, and I like that Stardust is leading these charges because it reminds me of when Seppel or I are town and we cut ourselves off and go somewhere completely different. More town points to Stardust.

I was more responding to when you early toDay said that casing rcw was a waste of time cause no one read it.

Like I said, I'm ok with any of those three lynches, depending on where other townies feel about putting their votes.

My point is that early Day 2, rather than sitting around waiting for someone else to create action, if red was really on your radar, you could've grilled/cased him a bit. Instead, you waited for action to be created and ended up on the wrong end of it, which doesn't look good for you.

Ok, finally did my re-read.

Thoughts:

First off... IMOPEN2 NEEDS TO POST MORE. If that dude is scum he is hiding extremely well and no one is calling him on it.

Secondly;

Iso, I did not like your rcw case. I read it, and your reasoning was similar to mine against TubeHunter so I at least see where you were coming from in general, but overall the case just wasn't there for me.

rcw and RedNihilist are my other two scumreads at this point.

rcw:
Page 7, rather than give original content, /barns Suga and says "I'm going to look into Checkbox and Iso because that's what that dead townie said I should do." Keep in mind, rcw's first content-filled post of the game came on page 3, and even then all he did was /barn Stardust at that point.
Page 4 he asks to hear more from people without offering any actual insight to the game state or
reads at all. He falls hard into the "doing nothing but /barning" category that TubeHunter and RedNihilist are into, and right now that's a large part of why they are on my scum-radar.
Page 7 he says Tube is starting to look scummy - After a decent case has been made and many have chimed in saying he is scummy-looking right now. To rcw's credit, he does grill Tube a bit before throwing his vote there,
rcw does finally come in with some original content (a case on Iso), and to me it feels forced. Like he really had to try and go find things to say about him - this makes sense because the reasoning for making the case in the first place is coming from Suga, not rcw himself. For example, he tried pointing out that Iso "steered the wagon", so to speak, on Suga. Suga dug his own grave, through and through, that is clear as day. The wagon was strong because Suga himself was pushing it. Iso then defends the case in a strong way IMO, and rcw comes back looking worse than before. Iso points
out inconsistencies with rcw's case, and rcw comes back with next to nothing. to me, Iso won that exchange, and it wasn't even close.
rcw then says its scummy for Iso to focus on the L-2/L-1 typo, but still hasn't actually answered the inconsistencies brought up with his case. rcw, to me, is trying to deflect the pressure being brought on his flimsy case in any way he can.

Stardust, why do you think rcw is town? I don't quite follow your explanation above. This is especially confusing since you acsed him on Page 8 and landed him on scum.

RedNihilist:

Correctly identified Suga on day 1 as being too aggressive - this is about the only townie thing I've seen him do.
Up until page 4, he just seemed new to me rather than being scummy. Then on page 4, he feels the need to point out that he has "nothing to hide", and uses the phrase "my poor self".
Townies should act with a bit more conviction, no?
Later on Page 7, he starts questioning the accusations of our only confirmed Townie. Despite Suga being wrong about me (I am town), what possible reason would Suga (a townie himself) have to just throw random accusations out there before he dies? Unless he is a uber-troll, presumably his reads were sincere at that point. The fact that Red tried discrediting them worries me.
After Red gets cased and voted, he plays the victim like TubeHunter did - "I have been playing poorly, I don't blame you for voting me" and even calls Stardust town for his case... literally the same exact thing TubeHunter did.
Then after he gets some original questioning and thought processes going, he just abandons them very quickly and says "I'm going to go read TubeHunter's posts now". At this point, he should absolutely have some reads going, enough that he shouldn't just have to /barn the "lynch of the day" when his only original content of the
game gets questioned a bit.

Those are my thoughts on those two. Frankly, I'd be ok with lynching either of them today, although TubeHunter still looks scummy as hell to me. If I had to single one out, it would be TubeHunter because he has only continued to deflect attention off of himself and has done nothing to convince me of his townieness since claiming. In fact...

TubeHunter, after OMGUS'ing a vote on me, moves back to RedNihilist (on page after being reminded that he targeted Red late Day 1. This is super scummy to me; if he were townie, presumably he wouldn't have forgotten about that read and wouldn't have to be reminded of it pages later only after he came out of a case/response exchange looking worse than before.

Other thoughts:
Stardust - you asked me a few questions a few pages back.

"1) If your entire issue with Iso was that he went against the spirit of the game, why did you think Iso was
scum?"

When I first went through the thought process of the initial "gamble" post, I wasn't quite comprehending what had happened and was being fairly illogical (along with not quite knowing how to phrase what I was trying to say). My main thought was (and is) that it does not auto-confirm Iso as town, as you seem to think it does.

"2) In light of Suga's flip, what do you think of imopen2? And Iso too, while you're at it."

imopen2 has had like 10 posts all game. He really needs to post more.

Iso... I'm >90% sure he is town, for a variety of reasons. One of which being his response to his case (though its not terribly difficult to look good when a flimsy case like that is thrown at you).

3) Respond to my responses to your case. There are two questions there that I want answers to.

"What if I told you that noob scum are more likely to just keep quiet rather than throwing out random comments in the beginning of the game?"

I would trust my reads over
that, as I don't read too much into "noob players tend to X" statements.

"Let's say a hypothetical townie wanted to cast the first real vote on that wagon, following my initial grilling of Suga. How would that townie vote look, in your opinion?"

It would probably consist of reasoning behind the vote. Doesn't even have to be much, but more than "you look scummy now".

I think this is enough for now.

I had started the re-read and mega-post for today, but then got sidetracked by an IRL cube draft. Things coming tomorrow, just FYI for everyone.

(My midterm went very well, by the way. )

I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all

@Iso: the information I provided is readily available in the thread.

That's not much of a case. Pushing me to L-1 at that point was a very bad idea (Yes, it was L-1) because I had one non-RVS post in the game and hadn't even been given a chance to defend myself. I could've easily been hammered without trial if Stardust hadn't stepped in and unvoted when he did.

And yes, Iso (correctly) identified me as town after I asked him the exact question you just asked him. He figured out my thought process behind asking the question, and came to the conclusion that it was a townie train of thought.

Granted, I'd still like to hear him answer the question as I don't remember a concrete answer being given.

I'm around, keeping up with things here on a surface level. I haven't forgotten about your to-do list, but I have a midterm tomorrow I'm trying to study for. I'll be making a mega-post tomorrow afternoon EST. I'll do a full re-read of Day 2 with a mega post.

In the meantime, TubeHunter is at L-2. Please claim.

Whoops. I meant to say:

I think checkbox's case is good, not great, but good.

Vote Tubehunter

Let's run that one back. Stardust is correct in your vote count.

Thank you~

Vote: Tubehunter.

Let's run that one back.

You were suspicious of Red because he didn't clarify his Suga vote? He at least gave a reason for voting Suga, whereas you just stated that Suga was "acting scummy", without giving any further clarification or reasoning yourself.

"You're really good at scumhunting."

"You're hunting me."

"You must be town."

Of course, if you are scum, feel free to just roll over and die.

Don't just give up and be Suga2.0. That is the worst possible thing for the town right now.

Because Suga had already been caught with his hand in the cookie jar at that point.

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

This post feels forced to me. Even new town realize that lynching someone for the sole purpose of creating action in a game is "not a great reason". This isn't a huge red flag, but I don't see the need for him having
to point this out. Other then this, no real action of any kind from TubeHunter on page 1.

everything suga has done looks much more scummy than anything else so far...

Vote: DroppinSuga

Here, TubeHunter throws down the first vote on Suga (other than my own RVS vote) without giving any real reason other than "he's more scummy than everyone else". While this is certainly true, this post reads more to me as scum identifying an easy mislynch early rather than a townie who truly wants to get other townies behind him on this wagon for good reasons.
At least RedNihilist gave "being too aggressive" as his reason... something > nothing.

Phone post, and probably the last for the real world day.

I don't really have a good read on any other potential scum. I would look into checkbox as well, though I find it odd that Suva would try to bus his only partner so soon.( though it is my first game, so whatever)

If Suva is town, then reevaluation like open said. Though I would like more of the other guys to chime about the game some more before truly reading the game.

Page 3; no original content. Gives no original reads, throws my name out because other people are. This just reads like scum trying to "hide in plain sight" - bussing everyone elses reads while offering up no original content.

Alright, now that we have a lot more posts by the other guys, do you think we should lynch suga now?

28 posts later,
after finally getting the "additional responses" he wanted to he could "truly read the game", what does he do? He tries to get the hammer thrown down really quick, but phrases it such that he can hide behind being new - "do you guys think we
should lynch suga now?"
Still offering no original content, this reads so much to me like scum just bussing off of other peoples' reads because there is one "obvious" target.

I as talking to stardust as he is the one saying that we should wait for claims and post by the others. I was thinking that now that people have do those things we could just move on with lynching him. Although I don't know if the town needs more information before night, it's still my first game so I'm not sure yet

Continues to do the same thing. Doesn't offer any
original reads or townie discussion at all, still trying to get Suga lynched ASAP while hiding behind the "new player" guise.
If he truly has his doubts about Suga, then he might be asking questions and trying to get specific information from people rather than just saying "lets just lynch him now, idk what we're supposed to be doing anyways."

[quote=&
quot;RedNihilist » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:33 am"]

[quote="

Now, speaking about Suga... I know he's been having a hard time and he's probably nervous and shit, yet the way he suddenly stood up and tried to get Checkbox dead quickly is suspicious - on the other hand, he's keeping on sayin' that he doesn't care about the game or anything, so maybe we're even doing him a favour by lynching him.
We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?

This part
of your post bothers me. Care to guess why?

Well, I'm asking myself why you should be bothered from that and I find the fact quite interesting.
I don't mind explaining those sentences, but before that I'd like you to tell me why you found 'em so disturbing.

You'll find that doesn't actually answer my question. Try again.

Well, technically speaking your question was "Care to guess why?", and I just don't think I'm going to just throw *guess* what you see as wrong in my post.
I'm more than open to discuss every sentence of said post, but I'd like you to crearly state what sounded so wrong in it, in your opinion.

I'd like to point out that I've got nothing to hide and I don't really think I've said anything wrong, I've just asked you to help me help you with all the explaining, so please refrain from being so cold towards my poor self.
But
I guess that you might just be trying to put some pressure on myself rather than trying to actually discussing the point with me.

I'm disappointed you're not giving me a straight answer. I'll consider that a point against you.

One of my problems with the post in question is that it's a total fence-sit on Suga. It gives you the chance to either put your vote on him or back off completely. That gives scum an excuse to throw their vote around. While it's good to doubt your reads sometimes, it's also scummy to have no conviction whatsoever in them. Understand? Additionally:

"We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?"

The line "our fellow townies...don't we?" really stands out because it's like you're making it a point to say, "Guys, look, I'm including me as part of the town!" It doesn't strike me as natural phrasing and it's something I personally did in my first scum game ("we, the townies").

Why the
defensive reaction?

Yeah, that post struck me as odd too. quite a defensive reaction. I don't think that that it is obviously a scum read, but it isn't too town one either. I too would like an explanation as well.

My top two candidates to investigate day two are checkbox and Nihilist. Checkbox, while not seeming as scummy as suga day 1, can't be counted out as an early bus target from suga. Nihilist had that wierd defensive reaction of not answering a question and such, and without more input from him, I would like to check him out more.

Oh? What's this? Original reads and content?

Nope. Still just regurgitating what other players are saying. TubeHunter is really apt at saying lots of things while actually saying nothing.

I think I want Stardust to post once more and I will be ready for us to end the Day.

sounds good to me.

I don't think that checkbox would claim anywasys today, as he know we're not lynching him today. I say just wrap this all up and move to night phase

More of the same.

all of this ^

Now he is trying to say some townie things... right after OTHER people are saying them. Not offering his own original content, just /barning everyone all day every day.

I'd be down for some kind of night investigation by a cop if there is one on ISo this night if Suva flips town. If not then I'd advise them to check out checkbox.

His final post before the lynch, stating the obvious, that which everyone else has already said.

Vote: TubeHunter

After so many posts of /barning others without saying anything of his own (other than the gentle push of the Suga wagon), I can't ses how he is anything but scum who correctly identified a mislynch early and then hid under layers of agreeing with others.

Good job, I thought you were never going to post it!

But on a more serious note, I agree that I need to put forth some more original content, and barn less. But It is still my very first game, so I feel
I deserve at least some slack.

On the posts that basically say, lets lynch suga now, it was more impatient than anything. If you are scum, (which I believe you are) you should've know that ever since suga dug himself a hole, we were lynching him. He wasn't actually contributing anything to the cause, with his posts being basically "Whatever bro, your making a mistake", and was leading me to belive he just wasn't trying to give anything up for his buddy. And between you refusing to claim, Which i believe is due to you, despite having 3 votes most of the day, were not an any pressure due to suga playing pretty badly.

And besides, (The most important point i might add) If I was scum and you were town, while wouldn't I barn along with Iso and Stardust and just put more pressure on you? Why wait for suga to come along and screw things up when I would've had a juicy target in you having already 3 votes?

This, along with the slightly scummy meta information posts is why I feel like the
best option currently is Vote: Checkbox[/quote]

I know that you were impatient to lynch Suga. I don't know why, if you are town, that you would be impatient to do so. What does the town have to gain from lynching without more information? It would seem that the scum have more to gain from that happening...

I know that Suga was the lynch yesterday for quite a while throughout the day, everyone did. Suga had given up, and scum or town, he wasn't helping the town either way. The reason I didn't claim (as explained by myself and others yesterday) was that the town had absolutely nothing to gain (and lots to lose) considering we had already decided that Suga was the day's lynch. If I am a vanilla townie, the claim is a wash. If I am a PR, the claim is detrimental to the town because it gives the scum a perfect nightkill target, and neither situation was going to change the lynch situation as we had already come to a decision.

And to your last point...

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

You address exactly that in this post. It wouldn't look great for you if you were to jump on my early wagon because there was no real foundation to it; waiting for someone to actually act scummy is a much better idea for ScumTube.

I kind of want to go along with Iso and Stardust and put some pressure on checkbox to start this game going, however I don't really want toacccedentally lynch a townie for not a great reason like that

This post feels forced to me. Even new town realize that lynching someone for the sole purpose of creating action in a game is "not a great reason". This isn't a huge red flag, but I don't see the need for him having to point this out. Other then this, no real action of any kind from TubeHunter on page 1.

everything suga has done looks much more scummy than anything else
so far...

Vote: DroppinSuga

Here, TubeHunter throws down the first vote on Suga (other than my own RVS vote) without giving any real reason other than "he's more scummy than everyone else". While this is certainly true, this post reads more to me as scum identifying an easy mislynch early rather than a townie who truly wants to get other townies behind him on this wagon for good reasons.
At least RedNihilist gave "being too aggressive" as his reason... something > nothing.

Phone post, and probably the last for the real world day.

I don't really have a good read on any other potential scum. I would look into checkbox as well, though I find it odd that Suva would try to bus his only partner so soon.( though it is my first game, so whatever)

If Suva is town, then
reevaluation like open said. Though I would like more of the other guys to chime about the game some more before truly reading the game.

Page 3; no original content. Gives no original reads, throws my name out because other people are. This just reads like scum trying to "hide in plain sight" - bussing everyone elses reads while offering up no original content.

Alright, now that we have a lot more posts by the other guys, do you think we should lynch suga now?

28 posts later, after finally getting the "additional responses" he wanted to he could "truly read the game", what does he do? He tries to get the hammer thrown down really quick, but phrases it such that he can hide behind being new - "do you guys think we
should lynch suga now?"
Still offering no
original content, this reads so much to me like scum just bussing off of other peoples' reads because there is one "obvious" target.

I as talking to stardust as he is the one saying that we should wait for claims and post by the others. I was thinking that now that people have do those things we could just move on with lynching him. Although I don't know if the town needs more information before night, it's still my first game so I'm not sure yet

Continues to do the same thing. Doesn't offer any original reads or townie discussion at all, still trying to get Suga lynched ASAP while hiding behind the "new player" guise.
If he truly has his doubts about Suga, then he might be asking questions and trying to get specific information from people rather than just saying "lets just lynch him now, idk
what we're supposed to be doing anyways."

[quote=&
quot;

Now, speaking about Suga... I know he's been having a hard time and he's probably nervous and shit, yet the way he suddenly stood up and tried to get Checkbox dead quickly is suspicious - on the other hand, he's keeping on sayin' that he doesn't care about the game or anything, so maybe we're even doing him a favour by lynching him.
We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?

This part of your post bothers me. Care to guess why?

Well, I'm asking myself why you should be bothered from that and I find the fact quite interesting.
I don't mind explaining those sentences, but before that I'd like you to tell me why you found 'em so disturbing.

You'll find that
doesn't actually answer my question. Try again.

Well, technically speaking your question was "Care to guess why?", and I just don't think I'm going to just throw *guess* what you see as wrong in my post.
I'm more than open to discuss every sentence of said post, but I'd like you to crearly state what sounded so wrong in it, in your opinion.

I'd like to point out that I've got nothing to hide and I don't really think I've said anything wrong, I've just asked you to help me help you with all the explaining, so please refrain from being so cold towards my poor self.
But I guess that you might just be trying to put some pressure on myself rather than trying to actually discussing the point with me.

I'm disappointed you're not giving me a straight answer. I'll consider that a point against you.

One of my problems with the post in question is that it's a total
fence-sit on Suga. It gives you the chance to either put your vote on him or back off completely. That gives scum an excuse to throw their vote around. While it's good to doubt your reads sometimes, it's also scummy to have no conviction whatsoever in them. Understand? Additionally:

"We do want our fellow townies to be dedicated people, don't we?"

The line "our fellow townies...don't we?" really stands out because it's like you're making it a point to say, "Guys, look, I'm including me as part of the town!" It doesn't strike me as natural phrasing and it's something I personally did in my first scum game ("we, the townies").

Why the defensive reaction?

Yeah, that post struck me as odd too. quite a defensive reaction. I don't think that that it is obviously a scum read, but it isn't too town one either. I too would like an explanation as well.

My top two candidates to investigate day two are checkbox and Nihilist.
Checkbox, while not seeming as scummy as suga day 1, can't be counted out as an early bus target from suga. Nihilist had that wierd defensive reaction of not answering a question and such, and without more input from him, I would like to check him out more.

Oh? What's this? Original reads and content?

Nope. Still just regurgitating what other players are saying. TubeHunter is really apt at saying lots of things while actually saying nothing.

I think I want Stardust to post once more and I will be ready for us to end the Day.

sounds good to me.

I don't think that checkbox would claim anywasys today, as he know we're not lynching him today. I say just wrap this all up and move to night phase

More of the same.

all of this ^

Now he is trying to say some townie things... right after OTHER people are saying them. Not offering his own original content, just /barning everyone all day every day.

I'd be down for some kind of night investigation by a cop if there is one on ISo this night if Suva flips town. If not then I'd advise them to check out checkbox.

His final post before the
lynch, stating the obvious, that which everyone else has already said.

Vote: TubeHunter

After so many posts of /barning others without saying anything of his own (other than the gentle push of the Suga wagon), I can't ses how he is anything but scum who correctly identified a mislynch early and then hid under layers of agreeing with others.

Case will most likely be made sometime over the weekend. Just FYI.

TubeHunter is my target for today after rereading day 1. Case coming in a bit.

Feel like giving a reason or two?

So Checkbox is some dude and... you're Shark? I'm not seeing the parallel.

Or are you saying that Suga is Shark? In which case you're really saying that Checkbox is town because Suga wouldn't bus him.

Iso/imopen is Shark, cause they wanted to see me claim, although they had no "townie" reason to.

nYea, iso made an analogy where he admitted he was scum. Good job. You caught him.

I wanted you to claim because I thought you were being scummy and you were L-2. I think you are confused as to what town has reason to do

I didn't catch anything; I was just explaining the analogy to Stardust.

If that were the only information, then yes, I would be "confused". When I was first at L-2, I wanted a case before I claimed. I never got a real case, so I never claimed. Why do I have to explain this to you?

You still haven't explained what you thought was scummy about my behavior. I was also at L-2 partially because our corpse-to-be doesn't like RVS.