Dies to Removal

I'll get you in next week's episode, Stardust.

Have we ever been on the same team?

Jail Stardust if TubeHunter is scum. If not, then it's 50% between who you think the two scum are.

Then kaze said no more post

First things first. Everybody's claiming. I'm vanilla town.

Am I the last to claim? If so, I guess that means nobody's counter-claiming the 1-shot bulletproof and the jailer. Which means that either those are correct claims or the real PRs claimed vanilla town. The only reason I can see for them doing that is to hedge and think they're potentially safer from a night kill. It could help if we successfully lynch toDay. According to Kaze, a mislynch and we lose, so incorrectly claiming only pays off if we correctly lynch, right? Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

However, I also can't see
someone claiming a PR and actually being Vanilla Town. As I said, it would probably put a big target on their chest. If Iso is really a 1-shot bulletproof, we don't know (and he's claimed he doesn't know either) whether it's been used or not. Only the scum would know that. And a jailer claim would seem like a target also.

So unless those are scum claiming PRs, I'd have to give them the benefit of the doubt. I guess my question is, why would a scum claim a PR? If the experienced players all agree that they likely wouldn't, then again, I'd have to give the PR claims the benefit of the doubt.

That means my read on an Iso/TubeHunter scum team may not be correct. At least, it may be half incorrect. TubeHunter is still the likeliest scum read left in the game.

@Stardust. A lot has happened since you asked me about the case on Checkbox. Honestly, the new developments overshadow that. Given what I've said above, I really do think that I need to give Checkbox and Iso the benefit of the
doubt with their PR claims, which for now nullifies anything "leaning scum" or less on him. And I didn't have a "strong scum" read on him to begin with.

I think you were the last. I also now think you've been right on the money with your TubeHunter/Iso scumteam.

You're right that scum generally wouldn't fake claim now. There's also no reason for town PR's to be hiding anymore. We need to lynch correctly today and need as much information as possible. Checkbox is town, for sure, but read my big post to see why Iso's not yet cleared. He's the only one who would fake claim in a game like this.

rcwraspy, you never answered half of my question from last Day. What do you think of the case on Checkbox and why?

Don't worry bro, I'll make sure you get cased up nice and well.

Frustration. When you are are the fast track to being mislynch number 2 after being fairly certain that you were pretty safe. And when you floundered under pressure like I did, you begin to get frustrated. When I saw your info posts, in my mindset it came out as "tee hee we know info that could help the town but were not going to tell you" also, it's not fun feeling like 1 vs all, and when you hear a suspected town player say they have information you feel like " oh god maybe that info can help me out please Someone help me". As to no never mind post, have you ever been upset and made a bad desicion and knew it was bad but you didn't care cause you were upset? And then later you are like " oh god i fucked up!" That is what happened
to me.

Here's where my REAL problem with Suga developed. Suga, having provided absolutely no original content so far in the game, pushed Checkbox past L-2

In this quote he states that pushing Checkbox to [
size=150](past)[/size] L-2 was bad. Why? Townies voting for scum, especially when others see it too, should be a good thing. He then proceeds to call Suga's reasons for voting weak, and decides to base his actions on that. Then, his most powerful statement of the post, is that Suga is the "best wagon we have" even though there were 2 people at (or past) L-2 at that point.

I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all

raspy, can I ask you why you preferred to come up with this case on Iso "today" rather than "tomorrow"?

rcw, if not Checkbox, who do you think likely is Iso's scum buddy?

Basically, the biggest flaw in rcw's case against me is that he states that Checkbox and I are scumbuddies, but that it was bad for me to try to get him to claim [which shouldn't actually be bad if Checkbox is scum].

rcw, what is the motive for pushing my scumbuddy to claim after a perfectly viable wagon on Suga pops up?

The emote at the end of my first post should have been a clear indicator that I knew town role PMs weren't blue.

Your specific phrasing: "Townies voting for scum...should be a good thing." So unless I knew Checkbox was scum, how is that a valid point against me? Additionally, if I knew Checkbox was scum, I would have to be scum, too - meaning I was attempting
to force him to claim on a Day we lynched a townie - and that Checkbox came out of the gate with poor pressure on his theoretical scumbuddy. After reading this, you're going to have to parse these contradictions for me or nobody is going to take your case seriously. Also, did I not state at the end of Day 1 that I thought Checkbox was town?

Um...or I'm stating
exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing for the benefit of the newer players. Which, y'know, was the point of me joining this game to begin with.

Oh no, how dare my reads evolve through the course of the game! As a townie, I must always stick to my guns and never change my mind on anything when new facts come to light! Do you seriously think me changing my view on Checkbox as a result of my interpretation of his mindset that I explained near the end of Day 1 is indicative of me being scum?

Additionally, please find the quote where I specifically state that Suga is not providing content so as to not incriminate CHECKBOX (as opposed to "Suga's buddies").

Additionally: Why did you include none of my Day 2 posts in your case?[/
quote]
Because prior to me posting my case on you, you've barely provided any Day2 content other than to say that you're going to hold back.

@rcw: Do you agree with the idea of bandwagoning for the sake of getting someone to claim/lynch range? If so, why?

Vote Kaze for giving me red in my role PM but not sending me a link to the scumchat.
Just kidding. Everyone knows townies are blue.
Right?

Clownfish, the way Mafia is played here, you always want a day lynch. There's pretty much no info given out at night other than anything a PR may give. At other sites I've played, there's detailed night write ups and at those sites, a day lynch is not always useful.

Firstly, this post. Suga hasn't commented on the events transpiring up to this point - most specifically, the Checkbox wagon. This is Suga playing the "I'm an Experienced player helping the other players" card, which is fine on its own, but the lack of content here is distressing, given that Suga knows full well how to play Mafia. We're the Experienced players, we're supposed to be taking the reins.

Power Role. Meaning a role that
has an ability, whether it be vigilante, cop, census taker, etc.

Another post answering a question about the game.

That's what we're here for.

*Broken record a la Iso*

vote: Checkbox
Let's see what Mr. Hairbrush has to say for himself.

Here's where my REAL problem with Suga developed. Suga, having provided absolutely no original content so far in the game, pushed Checkbox past L-2 (which is widely regarded as claim range on MTGS and so far on DTR). Why is this an issue? Well, there are a few things wrong with this. Firstly, putting a player at L-1 leaves room for somebody to "accidentally"
hammer them. The "accidentally" is in quotes, because one of three things can happen here - either a scum player can pretend to accidentally hammer, a townie can legitimately accidentally hammer, or Checkbox can self-hammer. The issue with this is that it deprives us of valuable wagon information, (especially if Checkbox self-hammers) which is not something we want. Additionally, the other issue with this vote is that up to this point, Suga expressed absolutely no suspicion of Checkbox. It's like he's voting on a wagon for the sake of jumping on a wagon. It's too early to determine whether or not this means Suga is busing Checkbox (busing means one scum throwing another "under the bus", so to speak) or trying to get a townie quicklynched. Regardless of the outcome, neither looks good for Suga.

Random votes are usually
frowned upon and are seen as more of a scummy thing to do. I know Mr. Box's vote wasn't random, per se, but to me, it's a scummy thing to do and shouldn't be done by new or old players.

This is a really weak reason to vote for somebody, considering the game starts off with RVS. Additionally, why (to the newer players) would Suga not have voted Checkbox sooner if he legitimately believed his own explanation?

I would still vote for him regardless. I don't like a random first vote and I don't like a random first vote with a stupid reason even more.

Then why didn't you say that sooner, and how do you expect the game to take off otherwise?

I don'
t even want a full claim from Boxxy in case he's a PR, I just want some confirmation that he's town.

Already asked, but how do you expect confirmation that he's town if not with a claim? What could he reasonably say at this point to make you believe he's town?

In this game, claiming is pointless since there's no characters to use as possible reference, but I'm Vanilla Town.

Why is claiming pointless? We have power roles.
-
I am ready to lynch DroppinSuga. When discussion has reached a close for the Day, I will happily hammer him. This is the best wagon we have; I do not want to see it debunked. :armscross:

For the record, I don't actually expect Suga to do this, but I'm making a point to point this out to the newer players. Suga has completely withdrawn and is continuing to contribute absolutely nothing to the game. His reads are self-
contradictory, and he's not helping us find the scum that may or may not be responsible for his push. My theory is that he doesn't want to incriminate his scumbuddy, and as such, is not willing to give us any content to analyze upon his death.

If you legitimately expect to get scum lynched, you certainly have to share your reasoning or no one's going to wagon with you for the hell of it (unless
you have a cult of personality like I do in some games). You can let a few drips out of the faucet if you're worried about overextending yourself (play a few cards close to your chest), but you can't expect to convince anyone unless you explain your reads. If you're actually town (though there's pretty much no way in hell you can be at this point), take heed of this advice. I use my gut all the time, too - but I do my best to expound on it when I can.

If you flip town, don't you think that would put a dent in my credibility?

Also, Checkbox is town.

If you're going to be using that post to cast the third vote here, you'd damn well better explain why that's scummy.

Of course. It's pure deflection. "Wait wait, people are looking at me, but LOOK! Here's this OTHER THING YOU SHOULD LOOK AT!! LET'S ALL DIVE IN!"

Also, ScumTubeHunter would very likely be absorbed in his own wagon and how to get out of it. His post shows that he hasn't been thinking about
scumhunting others, just how to wiggle out of his own wagon.

Why are the two mutally exclusive? Besides, why would I want to delfect onto stardust, a person that I have repetedly said to be town to me. What would I gain by throwing things onto him. I've stated repetedly that the scumteam is Checkbox/Red, so I don't know what i would gain from throwing crap on stardust.

You think TubeHunter is deflecting onto me there? Do you think what I said about Iso is scummy?

Actually, I'm preparing a case on Iso.

Cool. All the power to ya. Casing Iso is always a good idea, just don't expect to get him lynched today.

[
quote="RedNihilist"]Ok, let's just suppose I trust you and delay Iso's explanations for later - I guess that I can't speak about what strikes me about that post either, then.

There other two question that I can't get a grasp on, though:
- I clearly remember someone saying something like "I won't be nightkilled because this is a n00b game and I'm one of the tutors, so that would be very unfair" and I'd love to re-read that post but I just cannot find it (I basically had no non-working computer time last days);

- before being hanged, Suga said something on wanting Iso and Checkbox being investigated, and that he could see one of them being scum along a newbye (he
mentioned me and Tube as the potential scum, if I remember correctly); at that time I read all those posts as ways to just divert attention from himself, but with him turning townie I'd like to understand if he actually had understood something or if it was just crazy randomness from somebody that was just going to be lynched anyway.

If you're going to be using that post to cast the third vote here, you'd damn well better explain why that's scummy.

The hell are you getting at stardust?

I'm so confused right now.....

Also, Iso is town. Just trust me for now and don't ask him about stuff like that. There are certain conditions under which Iso would be scum, but we haven't hit those yet. I'll explain later. Or, more likely, ask Iso to explain later.

Whatever bro, just vote me and get it over with. Then you can kill checkbox tommorow for an actually right vote.

Nothing much in the going on's today. Still waiting on Checkbox's case vs me.

Why wait for Checkbox's case? You'd already stated that you were rereading and had a handful of suspects. Why not get something started for yourself?

In fact, reading back, you said you'd have a big case Saturday morning. What happened to that?

I admit I haven't played well, that for sure.[/quote:
25pdp1vv]
What makes you think you haven't played well?



RedNihilist! Any comments on the current goings-on?

That's most of the problem. College visit that took longer than expected, and supreise family visit made for a busy weekend. I will try with all my might to post that today.

As for not enough playing well, that and just plain not creating much original discourse contributes to that. I honestly don't blame you for the vote. I I think you are town

Why did you end your statement by telling Stardust you think he's town? Why is that important for the case against you, and what makes you think it?

So as soon as I flip town on this lynch, I want my fellow townies to investigate Checky and Iso. I see me a scum team there.

Why were you afraid to mislynch town? (No, that's not a trick question, I just want to know why you thought it was bad.)

- The Town Win condition is: You win when all threats to the Town have been eliminated.

- The Mafia Win condition is: You win when the Town has been eliminated, or nothing can stop this from occurring.

So, my issues with redcoloredwizard:

From what I can tell Iso's really coming out of the gates quickly here. I honestly have no idea what to make of that, but I also don't quite understand the vote for Checkbox. Could it be because of familiarity from previous games?

This post completely rubs me the wrong way. It tries really hard to keep options open. Basically, rcw could say, upon explanation, "Oh, well, then I'll vote [Iso or Checkbox]!" depending on reception to my start, as well as how people reacted to my Checkbox rationale.

Ah, right. I only explained why it's not scummy, not why it's townie. Maybe you can tell me. What motivation would townIso have for posting something like that?

Well, if someone comes galloping in agreeing but using the wrong color, that would sure be a big sign. I guess the next logical thing to look at from there is why checkbox seemed to take exception to it.

But I know where TubeHunter is coming from. I feel like we need some more discourse in here to get the clues flowing.

Too agreeable, too uninvested in doing, well, anything.

That said, I didn't like Stardust's post where he quoted 2 of Suga's posts and bolded parts (bottom of page 2). That seemed like splitting hairs. I've liked his other posts re: Suga, but that one struck me as odd.

*Rolls up a newspaper and baps you on the nose.*

I hope that's not you telling me that you suspect Stardust as Suga's scumbuddy. Can you clarify?

I simply meant that I didn't understand the distinction he was trying to make. We're dissecting Suga's posts and at least most of us are leaning scum on Suga, but pointing to those 2 posts and calling them contradictory didn't seem like a strong
indictment. Could it be busing? I suppose maybe, if I understand the concept, but I think you (Iso) and Stardust have both put yourselves in the "likely town" camp so far - at least through Day 1.

More keeping options open.

Hi all,

I'm back. A lot of law school reading to do today, but I'll be posting on and off. Just caught up on the reading.

@ Iso. From what I can tell you've got some strong reads going. So far I understand where you're coming from on Suga and RedNihilist. Thanks for the explanation on contradictory posts with no backup regarding why - helpful to use along with Stardust's search by poster in a thread to hunt with.

@ TubeHunter. you're new here too, right? I like your insights so far as well.

I'm ready to lynch Suga whenever the rest of you are. From there, Im going to want to hear more from RedNihilist, Checkbox, and Clownfish. I didn't understand Iso's first post for a bit either, so Checkbox's first post isn't completely incriminating from what I can tell, but it sure does lean in that direction.

Throwing suspicion without explanation, etc.

I'm sorry for the lack of content, but I don't know how to read into things the way you guys do quite yet and I've been on airplanes today.

rcwraspy feels too apologetic here. Town tend to
do the best they can regardless of how much they suck. Scum tend to have a guilty conscience and apologize to compensate for their "bad" reads or lack of content.

That said, I didn't like Stardust's post where he quoted 2 of Suga's posts and bolded parts (bottom of page 2). That seemed like splitting hairs. I've liked his other posts re: Suga, but that one struck me as odd.

*Rolls up a newspaper and baps you on the nose.*

I hope that's not you telling me that you suspect Stardust as Suga's
scumbuddy. Can you clarify?

I simply meant that I didn't understand the distinction he was trying to make. We're dissecting Suga's posts and at least most of us are leaning scum on Suga, but pointing to those 2 posts and calling them contradictory didn't seem like a strong indictment. Could it be busing? I suppose maybe, if I understand the concept, but I think you (Iso) and Stardust have both put yourselves in the "likely town" camp so far - at least through Day 1.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, but basically, if you think my entire case on Suga is wrapped up in one contradiction, you're wrong. You know you're wrong since you said yourself that you liked the rest of my posts on the matter. So why bring it up? I'll have to revisit this once we see Suga's flip, I think. Feels like a chainsaw*.

*Chainsaw defense is the act of cutting someone down to make their target look better. In this case, rcwraspy may be throwing suspicion at me in order
to make my case on his scum buddy (Suga) look worse.

I'd like to address these things.

We all know this is a newbie game. I'm one of the newbies. I was also traveling when I did my posting on Friday, and didn't have very much time. The fact also remains that, as my first mafia game, I'm still not used to reading into every last word that someone says the way that Iso and Stardust have demonstrated. Personality wise I tend to take things at face value and this is a shift for me. I started seeing walls of text and thought I had to do likewise, but knew I wasn't in a position to at the time. So I apologized. I don't feel guilty about it, I just wanted to inform people of my traveling. There was simply unfortunate timing between the start of the game and my itinerary.

Regarding the "chainsaw." I hadn't heard of that term before, but I don't agree with it anyway. I've stated multiple times that I'm on board with lynching Suga. So the argument that I'm
defending him because he's my scum buddy doesn't make sense when I'm lynching him anyway. Let alone the fact that it's simply not true.

VOTE: DroppinSuga

This feels off. It's like he feels pressured to place his vote on Suga to "seem townie". And it's the hammer.

You stole my hammer.

@Stardust: Don't you worry about me. I'll answer your question Day 2 since my iPod ate it and I don't feel like re-typing it.

Also, Checkbox is town.

nI'd apologize, but apparently that's scummy

This is just .

-

Upon review, I feel like I'm explaining myself terribly. I think I need to brush up on my mindset theory.

Does anyone have any questions about the case?

-

@RedNihilist: Hi! Tell us things.

So there are either a doctor, 2 goons, and 5 vanillas alive

or

a doctor, a cop, a roleblocker, a goon, and 4 vanillas alive

You stole my hammer.

@Stardust: Don't you worry about me. I'll answer your question Day 2 since my iPod ate it and I don't feel like re-typing it.

Also, Checkbox is town.

I'm sorry for the lack of content, but I don't know how to read into things the way you guys do quite yet and I've been on airplanes today.

rcwraspy feels too apologetic here. Town tend to do the best they can regardless of how much they suck. Scum tend to have a guilty conscience and apologize to compensate for their "bad" reads or lack of content.

That said, I didn't like Stardust's post where he quoted 2 of Suga's posts and bolded parts (bottom of page 2). That seemed like splitting hairs. I've liked his other posts re: Suga, but that one struck me as odd.

*Rolls up a newspaper and baps you on the nose.*

I hope that's not you telling me that you suspect Stardust as Suga's scumbuddy. Can you clarify?

I simply meant that I didn't understand the distinction he was trying to make. We're dissecting Suga's posts and at least most of us are leaning scum on Suga, but pointing to those 2 posts and calling them contradictory didn't seem like a strong indictment. Could it be busing? I suppose maybe, if I understand the concept, but I think you (Iso) and Stardust
have both put yourselves in the "likely town" camp so far - at least through Day 1.

I'm not sure how to respond to this, but basically, if you think my entire case on Suga is wrapped up in one contradiction, you're wrong. You know you're wrong since you said yourself that you liked the rest of my posts on the matter. So why bring it up? I'll have to revisit this once we see Suga's flip, I think. Feels like a chainsaw*.

*Chainsaw defense is the act of cutting someone down to make their target look better. In this case, rcwraspy may be throwing suspicion at me in order to make my case on his scum buddy (Suga) look worse.

Why does it lean that way to you?