Dies to Removal

I've been talking with zemanjaski about this game over PM and he tells me that he targeted rezmo with his kill Night 1. I jailed Z, but he never got a PM letting him know that his ability failed. He assumed the mafia nightkill had been blocked somehow instead (since rezmo did die), which greatly impacted his understanding of what went down overnight. Not bringing this up to bitch about it since I did have fun this game, but Suga, if you're modding in the future, you've got to be really on the ball with Night actions. If Z had been town and claimed to have not been blocked overnight, it would have caused me to claim my role and get Z lynched for lying, which obviously impacts the game in a big way.

Suga, don't feel bad about this game. Please don't, and I can't stress that enough. You created a game of unique characters and ran with it, and that is not something you should feel ashamed of; instead of relying on checked-and-double-checked, hand-wringing gimmicks to make sure everything is 'fair' at the cost of 'fun', you wrote something that was really astounding to read along with. That, in the world of Mafia, is a rarity, let me tell you; I had more popcorn moments in this game than I have in a long, long time. Jesus I laughed so hard at Rezzy's "????" flip and the reaction to it I almost lost bodily function.

Wish I had more time to read up, maybe I'll try to provide a little outsider insight later.

If I remember correctly, RCW would have died night 1, but he was bus driven.

Imopen faked the bus driver claim in the thread, and used his janitor role on Ham's unblockable kill of Rez.

I knew that if there was no other way to day or night vig me that scum won, i just didn't know what other PRs there were in the not-scum area.

Stardust I know you said you're chalking it up as a win, but so am I

Spam reviewed it. :shrugs:

Really? Wow. The town had 1 shot to kill the godfather. rezombad wasn't even a real vig. Like... this game is so obviously unbalanced.

Anyway, thanks for modding. Sucks to end in a loss for such a stupid reason, but I'll chalk this up as a win considering my reads were pretty damn good.

Here's the roles:

Mafia:
Welcome to DTR Mafia rcwraspy. You are Redthirst, Mafia Godfather along with your teammates imopen2 and Hamfactorial. You are the man, the myth, the legend. You are the appointed figurehead of the Fires of Salvation and it's said that you have a large penis. You are unlynchable and while you're alive, you enable daychat for the mafia. You win when the Mafia is more than 50% of the remaining playerbase.

Welcome to DTR Mafia imopen2. You are Hamfactorial, Mafia JOAT along with your teammates Hamfactorial and rcwraspy. Your one of the Tier 4 members of the Fires of Salvation. The DTR guys don't like you, even though your a pretty swagtastic guy. During the night phase, you may use one of these one-shot abilities: Janitor, role cop and Bus Driver. You win when the Mafia is more than 50% of the remaining playerbase.

Welcome to DTR Mafia Hamfactorial. You are Alex, Mafia Strongman along with
your teammates imopen2 and rcwraspy. You are one of the figureheads of the infamous Fires of Salvation and the target of much hatred of the members of DTR. Once per game, if you are the player making the kill, you will be unblockable. You win when the Mafia is more than 50% of the remaining playerbase.

Town:
Welcome to DTR Mafia zemanjaski. You are Kaitscralt, Town Doctor. On the exterior, you appear to be one of the most hate fueled members of DTR, but in reality, you're
a big sensitive teddy bear. During the night phase, you may PM the name of a player. That player will be protected from a kill.

Welcome to DTR Mafia Inflatable Pie. You are iamabadman, Vanilla Townie. You are obsessed with Pokemon and most of your posts are in caps. Every once in a while
you post something that no one expects though. Your obsession with Pokemon keeps you from having a REAL power, so your only power is your vote.

Welcome to DTR Mafia Rezombad. You are Admin, Town JOAT. You're the god damn Admin of DTR. You
do everything around here and all you get is slack for not giving
out those damn dragon trophies. During the night phase you may use one of these one-shot abilities: Roleblock, Vig (You can choose to use this during the day phase),
Innocent Child or Tracker.

Welcome to DTR Mafia DocLawless. You are Checkbox, Vanilla Townie. You try way too fucking hard. Your only power is your vote and quite frankly, your lucky
to even have that.

Welcome to DTR Mafia Stardust. You are thrillho, Town Jailkeeper. You are one of the founding fathers of DTR, but you also are a social issue crusader! At night, you
may PM me the name of a player. That player will be protected and will also be roleblocked.

Welcome to DTR Mafia G_R. You are G_R, town doublevoter. You know who you are! During the day phase you have two votes that may be used separately.

Welcome to DTR Mafia freedom. You are Mogadishu Jones, Town Cop. You've been on DTR since the beginning. Although you aren't around as much lately, you still
nshow up and lay the smack down on idiots in the Blathering Thread. At night you may PM the name of a player. You will be told that player's alignment.

Welcome to DTR Mafia wraith223. You are King Spam, Vanilla Town. You have been around since the beginning, but are AFK for the time being.
Your vote is your only power.

Neutral:
Welcome to DTR Mafia Lord_McDonalds. You are Stardust, Bulletproof Serial Killer. The smell of corruption is thick on DTR and you are the only man who
can right the wrongs done. During the night phase you may PM me the name of a player. That player will be killed. You win when you are one of the last
two players alive.

if rez is town, we are probably at 6-3 right now with a double voter

we mislynch and zem is a survivor that kills a town+the mafia NK = 3-3(probably without our double voter)

mafia wins?

Unvote: Ham

Vote: Zem

Not necessarily. He would have shot you. You are scum.

When you see my abilities, you'll know why I know Rez is Town and IMOPEN / 'Dust are Scum.

Au revoir.

if rez is town, we are probably at 6-3 right now with a double voter

we mislynch and zem is a survivor that kills a town+the mafia NK = 3-3(probably without our double voter)

mafia wins?

Unvote: Ham

Vote: Zem

Zem, if you think Rez was town, your best shot at winning this is using your NK to kill town and win with the mafia, so why should you make it through this day? Tell us now what you say will be revealed about Stardust and I might buy that you're willing to side with town.

And who broke last page?

Imopen2 is 100% scum.

Yup. Making Rezzy town, and the score 5-3-1. I'd rather be 4-2-1 rather than 4-3-0 going into Day 3. Please, please unvote zem.

If you kill me and Rez was Town (he was Town btw, I am 99% sure), then you'll lose. Remember how Stardust never explained the consequences of Rez being Town?

I believe you, and know that we have a much better target to lynch if we want to win. It seems to me that you will play the game as a townie, since without the powers of being Mafia, it is much harder to help their team. Lynching you brings us no closer to victory.


Don't kill zem. We got what we wanted out of him.

Vote: Hamfactorial.

If you kill me and Rez was Town (he was Town btw, I am 99% sure), then you'll lose. Remember how Stardust never explained the consequences of Rez being Town?

@Zem, My study of Iamopen2 failed. Stardust has raised great points. G_R has to be town to have 2 votes or it's a BS game. Rez was an unknown. Before Doc was replaced by a deaf ghost; he leaned town to me strongly. That leaves you and Ham. LMD was not adding much to the game as appeared a lurker or piggy back of coments to look town. I don't know what else to do?

Ugh, I'm tired of repeating myself. Your text wall is full of untruths and questions I've already answered. It doesn't even matter. Lynch me first if you guys want to. I'm 90% sure we've got this game in the bag without any further evidence.

Note that this is the post of defeated scum.

I guess throwing up my hands completely isn't very helpful. I refuse to waste my time with you anymore, but I ought to at least point out the lies.

---

Your reasoning is additionally faulty because scum tried to kill raspy anyway* so he was already a clear target, before I pushed the test.

Irrevelant. You didn't know this when you went after rcw. Or maybe you did and just slipped. Either way.

No, imopen2 claimed that scum tried to kill raspy and that he redirected that kill on rezombad. You've accepted this as truth, as it needs to be true for the basis of your endgame analysis to hold up. Thing is, I didn't need to know about the bus driver before testing raspy's claim, as others agreed and G_R again explained to you (because apparently you cannot read) verifying the claim serves Town.

So what are you hiding?

Again, you don&#
39;t explain why it is scummy. I explained my reasoning repeatedly, which you continue to ignore (is that a scum tell?). If it is so scummy, why didn't you say anything at the time? Others did - DocLawless and Freedom both questioned me about it extensively. G_R was in on it too. But they're not scum right? It's only scum if you say so yes?

I did already explain why it's scummy. I also already answered why I didn't say anything at the time (Day 1, Z asked for my input then pushed the lynch to completion in about 4 hours). Then you go on to put words in my mouth again, based on something I've already explained (hint: everyone else followed you Day 2 after rcw full claimed).

Yes, and your explanation was bullshit. It didn't make sense, you need to try again. If what I did was scummy, then G_R must be scum too yes? As for the Pie lynch, it is out of my control how quickly it occurs, so to suggest
that I am scum because others act quickly is entirely illogical. You seem to be pushing me to a lynch very quickly, so that makes you scum right? How about some real reasons?

Just like you're pushing Ham to vote for me now, going so far as to bully him. You're scum right?

Here's a lie, flat out.

Ham commented that he felt bullied, so you're lying. Flat out.

That fact is SD, you made a huge error that you've refused to actually admit to. In one breath you say it is scummy for me not to follow the advice of other players; and in the next say it is scummy when I do. It cannot be both as you
claimed. What lies at the core here is you trying to control the narrative of the discourse, and I simply won't allow it. That's why you want me gone, because you don't like what questions I am asking. You're basically doing all of the bloodthirsty acts you accused me of, which is amusing in itself.

The difference is I never had you as town. Explain the bolded. You've been doing nothing Day 2.[/quote[

Nice deflection. You still refuse to engage with your own hypocrisy. You cannot tell me in one breath that I am scum for following others; then in another say I am scum for not following others.

Turning to day 2, I have spent it almost enitrely in defence of myself. Why?
- it has been the dominating narrative of the day. This is because we're the two most active posters and there are a great many posters who are passive and have been willing to watch from the sidelines.
- the holiday season completely destroyed the pacing of the game.

nI have done just as much as you have on Day 2, and at last I have asked others questions. If you're suggesting I am scum for inactivity, then you need to reconcile that with the post counts of the others, which you cannot do.

- its only scummy if I want to test rcw's claim. G_R proposed to do it again, but that's fine, as it is only scum when I do it.

Being intentionally dense and ignoring that I've repeatedly said it makes sense now that rcw has fully claimed.

Then why the fuck do you keep bringing it up as an indicator that I a scum? So now my testing of raspy wasn't scum behaviour? You're so fucking inconsistent.

- does anyone else find it strange that Stardust now considers Rez likely scum despite being the player who stated that Rez waas "95%" likely Town after the day kill? Thing is, Stardust needs Rez to be Town for her claimed "we can make a mislynch and still win" scenarios; she doesn't even mention the possibility that Rez isn't scum (which he won't be, 95% of the time). which misleads Town substantially. SD is the most experienced player and would be fully aware of how important Rez not revealing an alignment would be; yet no mention. We need to consider that Rez was Town.

Ignoring the fact that I was voting for rezombad when Day 1 ended. Also ignoring the fact that I did mention the possibility that rez isn't scum. Also ignoring the fact that I went into detail previously on rezombad's hidden flip.

Wow, here we go. You do everything but address
my concern. Everything you said is completely irrelevant. What matters is that you didn't even consider the possibility that Rez was Town when providing endgame scenario analysis to Town. You've just fucking admitted that you were aware he might be Town, so you chose not to prevent that possibility when providing your analysis.

I NEVER said that you didn't vote for him, or suspect him; all I said is that you've taken the position that he was guaranteed scum, which he clearly is not. That you're arguing about this, instead of just admitting a mistake, indicates that you're hiding something. You cannot risk the possibility of others thinking that Rez was Town because then all of a sudden your push for a mislynch on me has much more dire consequences for Town than you want me to realize.

- You've made multiples lines of argument that seek to silence or control my contributions

Bold words. Better find some quotes to back that up since as is this is just blatant smearing.[/spoiler]

Or you know, like I explained twice previously, your hypocrisy with who I can and cannot follow as decided by Stardust puts me in a position of not being able to comment without you being able to say I am scum. So that forces me to be quiet. Nice try though scum!

Well, if we have a cop that survives the Night, we're pretty much sure to win the game if we lynch scum toDay.

How? I think
this assumes that Rezombad is dead scum, but only his scum-teammates would know that for sure. A lot of us think Rez was probably scum, but we have to operate with the math as if he were a townie so as not to screw this up. Using strong language to state otherwise seems deceptive to me.

So why don't you care that Stardust completely glossed over the possibility that Rez was Town; which I remind you, Stardust originally said was "95% likely".

I want you all to notice how quickly Stardust's tone has changed back to calm now that she's starting to get her way. She doesn't feel threatened anymore.

@ Wraith223 - you're changing your vote to me because I am posting more than a player that had to sub-out due to inactivity? Really?

A bus driver switches all things that would target those two players. Anything that targeted rcw would target rezombad instead. Anything that targeted rezombad would target rcw instead. It doesn't interact with rcw's abilities at all.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but yeah, it's possible imopen is lying. The main reason why I think he probably is telling the truth is that I don't think rezombad was a very good choice for the nightkill. Left alive, one of two things would happen. 1) He's 1-shot, and I carry on going after him as I was at the end of Day 1, or 2) He's multishot and he shoots me in Day 2. Either way the mafia benefit from him staying alive.

rcw, on the other hand, was a good target for the nightkill. Relatively active, confirmed town
by his ability... so I tend to believe imopen when he says they were switched.

All that said, I have been burned before by assuming that everyone thinks like me. I strategize assuming my opponent's will be doing the same, in the same manner. That's sometimes not the case, so I end up making the wrong call. Maybe rezmo was targeted by the nightkill and scumopen2 wanted to burn his hidden flip ability so he could make an awesome bus driver claim. Dunno. With only two days to go before deadline, that's best left for Day 3 anyway.

You place to much trust in unfounded claims, but you have decent points.

I just re-read all the posts. Iamopen2 knew before that RCW was a miller cause Rcw adimitted to it before a lynch. Although, in a previous post, Rez uses the bus driver in a post as a giff, thus Iamopen2 could have got the idea to fake it. Further reading had LMD lurking more and not really contributing anything for town. Zem wanted to push this after getting LMD spot. Stardust is on
to something here.

Vote ZEM

Wraith, you are obviously confused. I wanted to use my bus driver ability to protect a townie and redirect anything that targeted them onto a possible scum. I felt that rcw was te most likely NK target and chose Rez for reasons I have already stated. Rcw being a miller has literally nothing to do with my ability...

A bus driver switches all things that would target those two players. Anything that targeted rcw would target rezombad instead. Anything that targeted rezombad would target rcw instead. It doesn't interact with rcw's abilities at all.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but yeah, it's possible imopen is lying. The main reason why I think he probably is telling the truth is that I don't think rezombad was a very good choice for the nightkill. Left alive, one of two things would happen. 1) He's 1-shot, and I carry on going after him as I was at the end of Day 1, or 2) He's multishot and he shoots me in Day 2. Either way the mafia benefit from him staying alive.

rcw, on the other hand, was a good target for the nightkill. Relatively active, confirmed town by his ability... so I tend to believe imopen when he says they were switched.

All that said, I have been burned before by assuming that everyone thinks like
me. I strategize assuming my opponent's will be doing the same, in the same manner. That's sometimes not the case, so I end up making the wrong call. Maybe rezmo was targeted by the nightkill and scumopen2 wanted to burn his hidden flip ability so he could make an awesome bus driver claim. Dunno. With only two days to go before deadline, that's best left for Day 3 anyway.

He claimed saving you and sent the scum to Rezombad with bus driver ability. How would he know who is the miller to save you? Before we voted to test your miller status?

I know you said you're avoiding the mafiascum wiki because you want to make your own reads, but please at least look up the power roles so you understand what's going on. A miller is a player who is town, but will investigate as scum to any cops who look into them (a cop is a role who, at night, can target a player and learn if they're town or scum). rcw is also unlynchable, a separate ability that means he can't be
lynched.

Issue- Bus driver claim he made would mean he only could switch the charactor for attack. He did not know that Rcwraspy was a miller at that moment/night. He could only guess. Rez could have been night killed without us knowing if he was scum or not. Iamopen2 could be false claiing a role. He won't talk anymore to prove this to us.

Do you think I am wrong in this theory?

He claimed saving you and sent the scum to Rezombad with bus driver ability. How would he know who is the miller to save you? Before we voted to test your miller status?

I know you said you're avoiding the mafiascum wiki because you want to make your own reads, but please at least look up the power roles so you understand what's going on. A miller is a player who is town, but will investigate as scum to any cops who look into them (a cop is a role who, at night, can target a player and learn if they're town or scum). rcw is also unlynchable, a separate ability that means he can't be lynched.

Counting back from Dec 16 (end of Day 1), running tally based on what I consider significant interactions (offhand mention, indirect comments and inclusion in T/S list doesn't count).

http://diestoremoval.com/search.php?key ... sf=msgonly

zemanjaski/LMD - 1234
Wraith223 - 12345
Stardust - 12345678
rcwraspy - 123
imopen2 - 1
GR - 1
Doc - 1

in addtion, Z gets negative points for the weakness in this post.

If rez is scum, Wraith is town based on this post.

rcw's interactions were frequently grilling rezmo on things
no one else was pushing against. Town points for rcw (again, if rez is scum).

I noticed in passing that imopen's posts surrounding the dayvig aren't great. Will look into later. The end of this post isn't great either. And this post.


Results:
Lots of interaction: Stardust, zemanjaski/LMD, Wraith, rcw
Some interaction: imopen2
Little or no interaction: GR, DocLawless, hamfactorial, freedom

And the previous interaction work...

Lots of interaction: Wraith, rcwraspy, Stardust
Some interaction: zemanjaski (LMD), freedom
Little or no interaction: Jones (DocLawless),
hamfactorial, imopen2, G_R

Adding those together (and assuming rezombad's scum), we can maybe sort-of clear Wraith, rcw and Stardust. zemanjaski interacted with him a fair bit, and LMD had one detailed post on the guy, but nothing aggressive and there's that one super weak post I found as well, so that's still feeling okay.

YMMV

In both case Rcwraspy and G_R are big targets for nightkills. Iamopen2 could be lying thus I can't count him really toward anything beyond a voter. How would he know who is the miller to save Rcwraspy during the night?

I think the prudent vote is for Zem now, but Iamopen2 is a good vote as well. I will wait for Iamopen2 to respond before I vote for Zem.

What does my being a miller have to do with imopen2's claim?

He claimed saving you and sent the scum to Rezombad with bus driver ability. How would he know who is the miller to save you? Before we voted to test
your miller status?

Dude, you called me a grandma with CRS.

Oh yes, that I did. Basically meaning that you'll say a bunch of stuff that makes a bit of sense, then BAM! From out of left field you make a vote that defies logic, even your own. I played a few games of Werewolf over Christmas with my family (grandma included). Not meant as an insult, just that I don't get you at all.

What about the mud slinging and the bandwagoning?

So, here's a post from Pie. In it he displays a heathy amount of what I've been calling townie rage. That's why I unvoted. His response to pressure was very townie. Would
townStardust unvote if that post changed my read?

I'm not even sure how you can read that unvote as scummy, especially since I started a new case on rezombad which would have only distracted from the Pie wagon. It was not at all clear that Pie was going to be the lynch. Here's a votecount from shortly after Pie voted himself. zemanjaski was reading him as town. freedom and Doc hadn't really said much of anything about Pie that I can recall and weren't about to vote for him until Z changed his mind and pushed them hard for a read. That's not the time for scum to jump off a wagon for town cred. Considering probably no one in this game other than me had ever heard of townie rage I could have just said, "Yep, self-vote, scum" and let you guys finish the job without drawing any attention to myself at all.

True, but I read the rage as the scum aggressiveness.
You were last minute unvoting though. On the bandwagoning, you posting wanted lynch counts? Now you got me questioning my vote.
Zem has poorly responded to your questioning, and LMD could have been lurking playing when I re-read them.
unvote
If zem is town; he is going after you cause it would be the white whale for scum to take down.
If you are scum; Zem is just an easy target.
In both case Rcwraspy and G_R are big targets for nightkills. Iamopen2 could be lying thus I can't count him really toward anything beyond a voter. How would he know who is the miller to save Rcwraspy during the night?

I think the prudent vote is for Zem now, but Iamopen2 is a good vote as well. I will wait for Iamopen2 to respond before I vote for Zem.

Dude, you called me a grandma with CRS.

Oh yes, that I did. Basically meaning that you'll say a bunch of stuff that makes a bit of sense, then BAM! From out of left field you make a vote that defies logic, even your own. I played a few games of Werewolf over Christmas with my family (grandma included). Not meant as an insult, just that I don't get you at all.

What about the mud slinging and the bandwagoning?

So, here's a post from Pie. In it he displays a heathy amount of what I've been calling townie rage. That's why I unvoted. His response to pressure was very townie. Would townStardust unvote if that post changed my read?

I'm not even sure how you can read that unvote as scummy, especially since I started a new case on rezombad which
would have only distracted from the Pie wagon. It was not at all clear that Pie was going to be the lynch. Here's a votecount from shortly after Pie voted himself. zemanjaski was reading him as town. freedom and Doc hadn't really said much of anything about Pie that I can recall and weren't about to vote for him until Z changed his mind and pushed them hard for a read. That's not the time for scum to jump off a wagon for town cred. Considering probably no one in this game other than me had ever heard of townie rage I could have just said, "Yep, self-vote, scum" and let you guys finish the job without drawing any attention to myself at all.

I guess throwing up my hands completely isn't very helpful. I refuse to waste my time with you anymore, but I ought to at least point out the lies.

---

Your reasoning is additionally faulty because scum tried to kill raspy anyway* so he was already a clear target, before I pushed the test.

Irrevelant. You didn't know this when you went after rcw. Or maybe you did and just slipped. Either way.

You're tunelling to the exclusion of all others, which is not in keeping with your play yesterday. That's a huge red flag for me. You seem to think that my strategem as scum is to draw as much possible attention to myself as I can?

Remember when I tunneled you Day 1? And then decided that you were town based on your responses?

Putting words in my mouth.

Again, you don't explain why it is scummy. I explained my reasoning repeatedly, which you continue to ignore (is that a scum tell?). If it is so scummy, why didn't you say anything at the time? Others did - DocLawless and Freedom both questioned me about it extensively. G_R was in on it too. But they're not scum right? It's only scum if you say so yes?

I did already explain why it's
scummy. I also already answered why I didn't say anything at the time (Day 1, Z asked for my input then pushed the lynch to completion in about 4 hours). Then you go on to put words in my mouth again, based on something I've already explained (hint: everyone else followed you Day 2 after rcw full claimed).

Just like you're pushing Ham to vote for me now, going so far as to bully him. You're scum right?

Here's a lie, flat out.

That fact is SD, you made a huge error that you've refused to actually admit to. In one breath you say it is scummy for me not to follow the advice of other players; and in the
next say it is scummy when I do. It cannot be both as you claimed. What lies at the core here is you trying to control the narrative of the discourse, and I simply won't allow it. That's why you want me gone, because you don't like what questions I am asking. You're basically doing all of the bloodthirsty acts you accused me of, which is amusing in itself.

The difference is I never had you as town. Explain the bolded. You've been doing nothing Day 2.

He actually isn't, not at all. The player he replaced acted Town, but that wasn't enough to confirm him, and it certainly doesn't extend to a player who has done nothing so far. I want everyone to pay attention to this cry for help - that isn't how Stardust played Day 1 at all; Day 1 Stardust
presented logical arguments and allowed others to make up their mind. Day 2 Stardust whines for help when she isn't getting the results she wants and tries to bully inexperienced players. We're seeing appeals to emotion instead of appeals to logic now.

Again with the bullying comment. I haven't bullied anyone. My "whining" to get Jones's input is similar to when I asked Doc or Pie for input repeatedly Day 1, but that is ignored. Not to mention he's now questioning strong town reads he himself shared at the time.

- its only scummy if I want to test rcw's claim. G_R proposed to do it again, but that's fine, as it is only scum when I do it.

Being intentionally dense and ignoring that I've repeatedly said it makes sense now that rcw has fully claimed.

- does anyone else find it strange that Stardust now considers Rez likely scum despite being the player who stated that Rez waas "95%" likely Town after the day kill? Thing is, Stardust needs Rez to be Town for her claimed "we can make a mislynch and still win" scenarios; she doesn't even mention the possibility that Rez isn't scum (which he won't be, 95% of the time). which misleads Town substantially. SD is the most experienced player and would be fully aware of how important Rez not revealing an alignment would be; yet no mention. We need to consider that Rez was Town.

Ignoring the fact that I was voting for rezombad when Day 1 ended. Also ignoring the fact that I did mention the possibility that rez isn't scum. Also ignoring the fact that I went into detail previously on rezombad's hidden flip.

- SD has spent all of toDay tunelling me, after barely interacting with me yesterDay. From straight out of the gates, she had run lines of argument that ignore the contribution and encouragement of others. We've already seen that her argument that testing raspy is incredibly weak, so the rest has become this manufactured "we should kill him anyway; we can make a mistake and still win". That's not the position of someone who can make a real case, that's the position of someone who is desperate.

Ignoring that I have repeatedly stated that my case is based not on rcw but on Pie. zemanjaski tried to counter that initially with "Look at these other guys!!" but has now continued to ignore that line of questioning, probably because he has no defense. Z's stated townie reasoning for pushing to
lynch his town read (Pie) was to get information. He still has yet to go back and use that information even in the slightest.

- You've made multiples lines of argument that seek to silence or control my contributions

Bold words. Better find some quotes to back that up since as is this is just blatant smearing.

Engaged a bit more than I intended to. Whatever.

There are things in here that look REALLY bad for you, Z. I'm focusing on the first 3 and the second to last in particular.

I'd be fine with a Zemanjaski lynch unless his responses really convince me.

Rcwraspy, why so quiet? Who do you find as scum?

I've stated repeatedly that I do the majority of my posting from work. When the work day ends, most of my content will too. I'm on the east coast.

Bah, forgot to get to the actual reason for quoting you and responding to you.

I think the scum team is among this pool:

Zemanjaski
Freedom
Hamfactorial
Stardust

Z and Stardust are both on there but I can't fathom them BOTH being scum. They're at eachother's throats and only 1 is scum, I think. So that makes their teammates Freedom, Ham, and/or Rezombad the
Dead.

I also have doubts about Wraith and G_R, but neither strongly enough to pursue for a lynch toDay.

Well, if we have a cop that survives the Night, we're pretty much sure to win the game if we lynch scum toDay.

How? I think this assumes that Rezombad is dead scum, but only his scum-teammates would know that for sure. A lot of us think Rez was probably scum, but we have to operate with the math as if he were a townie so as not to screw this up. Using strong language to state otherwise seems deceptive to me.

I guess throwing up my hands completely isn't very helpful. I refuse to waste my time with you anymore, but I ought to at least point out the lies.
Engaged a bit more than I intended to. Whatever.

Alright, I don't have as much time as I would like, so formatting has to give way for the sake of completeness. Enjoy the text wall.

Pretty sure he confirmed he wasn't a 1 shot days ago so I need to check that

Still waiting for this too.

The fact that he hadn't confirmed is the reason why your actions surrounding this was scummy. Especially after rezombad's lack of flip and imopen's claim, there was no reason to push rcw. 1) Confirming town for no reason can actually harm the town since it gives the scum clearer targets, and 2) If he was 1-shot, what then? That would not have
confirmed him scum. If he was 1-shot, lynching him without behavioural analysis to back it up is at best awful play, but much more likely scum motivated.

Reason 1 is total bullshit and you know it. SCUM ALREADY KNOW WHO TOWN IS. What is the Town motivation for lying about the ability? There isn't a scenario where raspy witholding the info ends up helping Town; he looked so scummy because of the way he played it, we would likely go after him again at some point anyway. Or scum kills him anyway after seeing that he cannot be lynched and we (Town) benefit from having a day with a stronger Town voting block. There is also the possibility that we have a watcher role, and that person could have watch raspy and provide Town more information that way. Your reasoning is additionally faulty because scum tried to kill raspy anyway* so he was already a clear target, before I pushed the test.

You need to explain the scum motivation for reason 2. You have continually said &
quot;such and such behaviour is scum" without explaining. We're mostly noobs now, tell us why. Then counter-argue G_R's point that (a point I have made previously and that you have ignored) that Town would not withold that information because it is useful for Town. Explain.

You've still not addressed my request for an explanation of why you don't see anyone else pushing for the test (we had to get enough votes to test the lynch afterall) as scummy. You're tunelling to the exclusion of all others, which is not in keeping with your play yesterday. That's a huge red flag for me. You seem to think that my strategem as scum is to draw as much possible attention to myself as I can?

[quote="zemanjaski » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:47 pm":
7fn7my6t]You unvoting is irrelevant. I was following your arguments, not your vote. You unvoting doesn't make your argument that Pie might be scum disappear.

Here Z is talking about my unvote and why it shouldn't have swayed his opinion. A simple unvote shouldn't have, but Z saw the same thing in Pie's townie rage as I did (and said as much shortly before trying to get him lynched). My unvote combined with Z's own read should have swayed his opinion. Instead he got bloodthirsty. 100% serious, this is by far the scummiest thing that has gone down all game. By far. There is no way Z is town.[/quote]

Again, you don't explain why it is scummy. I explained my reasoning repeatedly, which you continue to ignore (is that a scum tell?). If it is so scummy, why didn't you say anything at the time? Others did - DocLawless and Freedom both questioned me about it extensively. G_R was in on it too. But they're not scum right? It's only scum if you say so yes?

It is bizzare that when it comes to Freedom you expect me to listen to "strong" players, but when it regards Pie, I am expected to make up my own mind independant of the discussion of others and ignore those same strong players. Which is it Stardust? Can I listen to others or not?

Explain the inconsistencies in your argument.

There is no inconsistency. You can read freedom however you want to. My point is that he can read Pie however he wants to. Reading Pie as town was certainly possible (you did so yourself). There was no deadline. Pushing freedom to vote Pie showed your thirst for blood more than anything else.

[/quote]

Just like you're pushing Ham to vote for me now, going so far as to bully him. You're scum right?

That fact is SD, you made a huge error that you've
refused to actually admit to. In one breath you say it is scummy for me not to follow the advice of other players; and in the next say it is scummy when I do. It cannot be both as you claimed. What lies at the core here is you trying to control the narrative of the discourse, and I simply won't allow it. That's why you want me gone, because you don't like what questions I am asking. You're basically doing all of the bloodthirsty acts you accused me of, which is amusing in itself.

Jones! You're confirmed town, good job. Wanna help me out here?

He actually isn't, not at all. The player he replaced acted Town, but that wasn't enough to confirm him, and it certainly doesn't extend to a player who has done nothing so far. I want everyone to pay attention to this cry for help -
that isn't how Stardust played Day 1 at all; Day 1 Stardust presented logical arguments and allowed others to make up their mind. Day 2 Stardust whines for help when she isn't getting the results she wants and tries to bully inexperienced players. We're seeing appeals to emotion instead of appeals to logic now.

Other points of concern:
- its only scummy if I want to test rcw's claim. G_R proposed to do it again, but that's fine, as it is only scum when I do it.
- does anyone else find it strange that Stardust now considers Rez likely scum despite being the player who stated that Rez waas "95%" likely Town after the day kill? Thing is, Stardust needs Rez to be Town for her claimed "we can make a mislynch and still win" scenarios; she doesn't even mention the possibility that Rez isn't scum (which he won't be, 95% of the time). which misleads Town substantially. SD is the most experienced player and would be fully aware of how important Rez not revealing an alignment would be;
yet no mention. We need to consider that Rez was Town.
- SD has spent all of toDay tunelling me, after barely interacting with me yesterDay. From straight out of the gates, she had run lines of argument that ignore the contribution and encouragement of others. We've already seen that her argument that testing raspy is incredibly weak, so the rest has become this manufactured "we should kill him anyway; we can make a mistake and still win". That's not the position of someone who can make a real case, that's the position of someone who is desperate.

You're not dumb Stardust and we all know that, so what I am going to keep coming back to, throughout your posts, is how forced and strained your logic is to try and sway people to side with you against me. The reason that you're not having the success toDay that you did yesterDay is for this reason - you're arguments aren't grounded in the same logic and credibility as they were previously.

You seem afraid. You've made multiples lines of
argument that seek to silence or control my contributions, and that isn't Town behavior at all.

You're scum.

Not to defend zem, but the reason I, GR, think it's a good idea to put rcwraspy's ability to the test (toDay and even toMorrow) is because he has stated that it is not an x-shot thing, but "forever". If he's town he has no reason to lie about it, so putting it to the test sounds like a sure win, because if he's town and saying the truth nothing will happen except the thread grows some posts and Suga has to post a vote count, yet if he's scum and he's lying we just lynched scum.

I believe that there's still a reasonable doubt (lol) that he's town because no cop has surfaced, why would he be a miller? So he's either lying about it or rezombad was the cop, or the cop is not saying anything why would you do that cop, just tell us who to lynch or not to lynch.

Time to review rezombad's interactions since I believe he's dead scum.

Vote Lord_McDonalds

RVS votes LMD (replaced by scumZ) waaaaay after RVS is over. Later unvotes and plays is as a reaction gambit. Lots of WIFOM surrounding this, but could have been used to distance.

Grills townZ for a bit. Asks GR a throwaway question. Asks me a real question.

Trolls townZ with haikus and simpson pics. Answers Pie's question in detail.

Back and forth with Wraith. These guys are definitely not both scum. He even asks me about Wraith... trying to get me on board maybe?

Kills townZ.

Considers going after rcw after I start doing so and discusses rcw's claim a bit. Carries on not believing the claim later on.

Votes
freedom for WTF, then unvotes.

Makes a bad case on me and refuses to answer my questions. Repeatedly.

Continues to call rcw scum.

Must be nice to do nothing, badly fuck up, then go back to doing nothing knowing you won't be lynched or NK'd. Can you at least try to help?

Is this you trying to set me up for a mislynch later? Or are you just being petty because you got shot for being scummy as fuck?
What about rcw being unlynchable makes me suspicious?

Here's a solid interaction with scumZ. Replied to later in some detail.

That's it.

Lots of interaction: Wraith, rcwraspy, Stardust
Some interaction: zemanjaski (LMD),
freedom
Little or no interaction: Jones (DocLawless), hamfactorial, imopen2, G_R


I'll do the reverse interactions tomorrow.

I've also concluded that imopen must be town. Like, 99% based on what happened last night. This is conditional on me being town (which I obviously know), but unless someone else can explain why rezombad died, I'm going to assume imopen is town.

You know what, it doesn't even matter. We've got such a solid town bloc, even if you don't count me among the townies. I said before that I thought the mafia were within these five: hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R. You can add rezombad, Wraith and me to that list if you like, but as a trade we can remove rcw (unlynchable) and G_R (double voter).

Probably imopen2 and Wraith are town.

If that's correct, that leaves us with hamfactorial, zemanjaski and me as the possible scum. Even if rezombad was town, we're still (very likely) allowed one more mislynch, meaning that we'll need to resolve the last scum after lynching those three. However, if rezombad was scum (which I think he was) things are looking great. We're still allowed two more
mislynches, meaning that we can lynch all three on that list and have one more lynch to spare.

Basically what I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure the scum team is rezombad, hammy and zemanjaski. I would be willing to vote either of them. PoE is pretty awesome when you've got solid townies.

re

Assuming a Rez (dead), Ham (ultra-lurker), and Zem scumteam, lynching Ham may be the safest but also the weakest play to make. I'm not opposed, like I said earlier, but unless he starts posting like he just said he would, it really doesn't give us any information after a flip. He's also a great bus-target for any of his scum-teammates because of his inactivity, so we can't rely on people not on his wagon being scum.

Basically that means I need to read Z and Rez's posts for any potential interactions between them after Z subbed back in, because if Z is scum then he's the better target for a lynch toDay.

Stardust, why is Freedom cleared on your list? He kept making scumslips even after
the one everybody laughed off as being noob town.

Do you believe G_R's double vote claim, and if so, is that EVER a scum ability?

You know what, it doesn't even matter. We've got such a solid town bloc, even if you don't count me among the townies. I said before that I thought the mafia were within these five: hamfactorial, rcwraspy, imopen2, LMD and G_R. You can add rezombad, Wraith and me to that list if you like, but as a trade we can remove rcw (unlynchable) and G_R (double voter).

Probably imopen2 and Wraith are town.

If that's correct, that leaves us with hamfactorial, zemanjaski and me as the possible scum. Even if rezombad was town, we're still (very likely) allowed one more mislynch, meaning that we'll need to resolve the last scum after lynching those three. However, if rezombad was scum (which I think he was) things are looking great. We're still allowed two more mislynches, meaning that we can lynch all three on that list and have one more lynch to spare.

Basically what I'm saying is, I'm pretty sure the scum team is
rezombad, hammy and zemanjaski. I would be willing to vote either of them. PoE is pretty awesome when you've got solid townies.

re

No, the need to re-lynch again to prove town was a wate of time. At least I thought so before. It actually never confirme town as we never saw the blue typing. I need to see the body or credentialsfor me believe town. Zem put up a significant rally to gt this done. It's just a small point to consider.
Where they hell is everyone else?

Oh. Well, now that rcw is proven to be proper unlynchable, he must be town. That ability on a scum player would be unbalanced since we would need our vig to shoot him. So far there's no evidence we even have a vig at all (since rezombad was likely scum).
To make that ability balanced on a scum player I'd say we'd need maybe 5 vigs in the game. So... yeah, confirmed town.

Day kill scum ability seems rather off. It is complete Bull shit that we don't know if Rez was scum or town. If they die, we should know.
The new replacement for Doclawless is less active than Doc was. Useless. To many lurkers.

No, the need to re-lynch again to prove town was a wate of time. At least I thought so before. It actually never confirme town as we never saw the blue typing. I need to see the body or credentialsfor me believe town. Zem put up a significant rally to gt this done. It's just a small point to consider.
Where they hell is everyone else?

Oh. Well, now that rcw is proven to be proper unlynchable, he must be town. That ability on a scum player would be unbalanced since we would need our vig to shoot him. So far there's no evidence we even have a vig at all (since rezombad was likely scum). To make that ability balanced on a scum player I'd say we'd need maybe 5 vigs in the game. So... yeah, confirmed town.

Pretty sure he confirmed he wasn't a 1 shot days ago so I need to check that

Still waiting for this too.

The fact that he hadn't confirmed is the reason why your actions surrounding this was scummy. Especially after rezombad's lack of flip and imopen's claim, there was no reason to push rcw. 1) Confirming town for no reason can actually harm the town since it gives the scum clearer targets, and 2) If he was 1-shot, what then? That would not have confirmed him scum. If he was 1-shot, lynching him without behavioural analysis to back it up is at best awful play, but much more likely scum motivated.

There HAS to be one, otherwise there's no use for a miller. Unless it was Rezombad, they better come forward with their results right now, because that would narrow the lynch pool significantly.

We should attempt to lynch rcw first thing toMorrow as well.

Who do you want to lynch currently?

There HAS to be one, otherwise there's no use for a miller. Unless it was Rezombad, they better come forward with their results right now, because that would narrow the lynch pool significantly.

We should attempt to lynch rcw first thing toMorrow as well.

I hadn't figured it out, so thanks for explaining. I can see now what you meant about bread crumbing, but that sort of thing is beyond my skillset.

No one has claimed cop, but I assume that there is one; maybe they can give us two reads toMorrow? Unless Rezombad was the cop - is that configuration possible?

My scum read on Ham comes more from his avoidance and deflection; if you look at what he has written you'll get nothing; its more of a contextual call.

Hi kpaca. Here's a summary:

- Walls and walls of text.
- rezombad used a day shot to kill the first incarnation of zemanjaski.
- rcwraspy got enough votes for a lynch and then claimed unlynchable miller.
- InvisiblePi got lynched after practically rage quitting the game, among other things because he didn't like that a dead player replaced back in (zemanjaski).
- rezombad got nightkilled but we didn't get a flip.
- imopen2 claimed that he's a bus driver and that he switched rcwraspy with rezombad, making rcwraspy the original NK target.
- After someone brought up that rcwraspy could be one-shot unlynchable scum, his claim was put to the test by voting him 2 votes beyond lynch threshold.
- Stardust called zemanjaski's push for the above scummy and zem kinda overreacted about it and that's what they keep fighting about.
- Game seriously stalled because holidays.

The major point of contention right now is whether or not it was scummy for me to push for a test lynch of rcwraspy's "unynchable" claim. He's confirmed unlunchable now, so 99% Town.

Stardust is the only play alleging its scummy, for reasons we're still waiting on.

The move was discussed yesterDay and agreed to between many of the players, with most contributing to the test lynch toDay.

The argument for the test is that, with raspy supposedly being unlunchable yesterDay, we needed to test today to verify whether he was Town or 1 time unlynchable scum. I argued then and contend now that confirmed Town helps Town. We're waiting to hear from Stardyst how it doesn't.

It's also worth considering that imopen2 claims to have transferred the NK from raspy to rezombad. I don't know what to make if that claim. Wraith questioned why scum wouldn't have NK'd Stardust, the most experienced member of Town.

nIt'll be worth your time to re-read the interactions toDay between Stardust and I, we've been the most vocal contributors thus far. Of note also were a few weird scum slips from Freedom yesterDay and Ham's continual refusal to contribute in a meaningful way; lots of posts to look active but do nothing.

I still want to go back and look at Pie's wagon, when I get back from holiday (I sympathise with not wanting to read 17 pages).