Kaze's Newbie Mafia (Mafia Win)

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Postby Stardust » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:23 pm

Honestly I would have rather done it "tomorrow," so as not to derail the case on TubeHunter, but I had already promised to post my case by a certain time. So I simply followed through with it.
Well that's awkward.

How about this: Iso and TubeHunter are scum. Who is town?
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Postby TubeHunter » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:26 pm

Honestly I would have rather done it "tomorrow," so as not to derail the case on TubeHunter, but I had already promised to post my case by a certain time. So I simply followed through with it.
Well that's awkward.

How about this: Iso and TubeHunter are scum. Who is town?
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Postby Kazekirimaru » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:23 pm

Vote Count 2.03

TubeHunter: Checkbox, imopen2, rcwraspy (L-2)
RedNihilist: TubeHunter

Not voting: Iso, Stardust, Clownfish, RedNihilist

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is October 18, 2013 12:00A.M. PST
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Postby Iso » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:33 pm

"It's not. It COULD be. But it doesn't HAVE to be. It could also be you putting that in there to hedge on it in case you had no idea whether they're blue or green."

So you're suggesting I'm some kind of master scum manipulator?


"You're misreading my statement, and twisting it around. At that point your vote was on Checkbox. Clearly YOU thought he was scum at that point. Therefore your statements were made from the mindset of Checkbox being scum. This isn't about my read on Checkbox (which is still unclear), this is about your actions while your vote was on checkbox. How in the world would any of that mean that you're both scum together? I'm sure you can vote for a townie if you're scum."

No, you are the one who twisted it around. You said I said putting Checkbox at L-2 was bad - which not only wasn't what I was bitching about, but is a misrepresentation of the facts at hand - that
being that Suga but Checkbox to L-1 without a claim and without reasoning. Yes, I thought Checkbox was scum at the time - but why is it anti-town to try to extend the Day a little longer when we could obtain more information from Checkbox? Additionally, Suga reared his head at that point, which I was convinced was scum action, and I still stand by my decision to lynch Suga - his behavior was not to the benefit of the town, and such a move endangered our Day 1. But this isn't the point at hand - the point at hand is that you grossly took my statement out of context.


"How convenient that you keep reminding us."

If you don't want me to remind you, don't bring it up? I made a decision that I was going to be as transparent as possible in this game, and if you don't like the fact that explaining my reasoning holds me accountable for my actions, then go jump in a lake?


"No. But you started down one path (Checkbox), hit a wall, went down another path (Suga), pointed to your first path
as evidence, and then contradicted your own evidence."

What wall? I could have maintained pressure on Checkbox if I wanted to. Please, instead of using anecdotal metaphors, walk me through the point where I "hit a wall", "go down another path", "point to my first path as evidence", then "contradict my own evidence". Please use quotes. Additionally: How can it be evidence if it's not correct?


"You don't. On Friday you tie them together by suggesting that Suga was busing Checkbox. On Sunday you talked about Suga not providing content as to not incriminate his scumbuddy. At that point, reading your posts, I can only assume you still thought Checkbox was the scumbuddy. It wasn't until the following Tuesday that you cleared Checkbox as town."

Okay. Then I changed my reads again. Send me the bill.


"Because prior to me posting my case on you, you've barely provided any Day2 content other than to say that you're going to hold back."


Uhh, I provided a case on you, did I not? :isthatso: How is that "barely provid[ing] any Day2 content"?
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Postby Iso » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:34 pm

*Suga put Checkbox

Typos.
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Postby Stardust » Wed Oct 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Iso, you're saying rcw quoted you out of context (presumably for malicious reasons). Can you go into detail there, because I'm not seeing it. Are you just talking about the fact that he said L-2 instead of L-1?
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Postby TubeHunter » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:09 pm

:/
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Postby Stardust » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:12 pm

What's up, Tube?
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Postby TubeHunter » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:16 pm

Just something about rcwrapy seems off. Which bugs me as i Pegged him as town going into day 2. his postings feel scummy When I get to an actuall computer ill elaborate more if you want.
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Postby Checkbox » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:32 pm

I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:49 pm

I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all
Of course it's not. I'm a newbie making my first ever case and it happens to be against an experienced player. Odds are that won't go well for me. But I saw some inconsistencies and felt I should point them out.
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Postby rcwraspy » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:56 pm

Here's where my REAL problem with Suga developed. Suga, having provided absolutely no original content so far in the game, pushed Checkbox past L-2
Emphasis mine.

This is the word I missed when I was originally referring to this quote.

However, the harping on this particular point is insignificant to the case. All I was doing was referring to it as something Iso said to Suga. I wasn't using the L-2 or L-1 status as its own topic. Here are my references to L-2:
In this quote he states that pushing Checkbox to [
size=150](past)[/size]
L-2 was bad. Why? Townies voting for scum, especially when others see it too, should be a good thing. He then proceeds to call Suga's reasons for voting weak, and decides to base his actions on that. Then, his most powerful statement of the post, is that Suga is the "best wagon we have" even though there were 2 people at (or past) L-2 at that point.
I've put in (again, emphasis added) the word "past." You'll see that my points remain unchanged. I simply made the mistake of writing "to" and "at" instead of "past." It really doesn't change the meaning that I intended. And to focus in on such a tiny detail seems scummy to me. Trying to throw out an entire case because of such an insignificant detail, and get everybody wrapped up in it.
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Postby imopen2 » Wed Oct 09, 2013 7:59 pm

"It's not. It COULD be. But it doesn't HAVE to be. It could also be you putting that in there to hedge on it in case you had no idea whether they're blue or green."

So you're suggesting I'm some kind of master scum manipulator?
Iso, you've got be kidding with this...you definitely have the ability to be a "master scum manipulator"
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Postby Stardust » Wed Oct 09, 2013 9:06 pm

Iso, you've got be kidding with this...you definitely have the ability to be a "master scum manipulator"
Yeah, that caught my eye too. Some of Iso's defense feels less than genuine. But you're town, right Iso? God damnit.

Okay, back on track. rcw/TubeHunter scumteam makes a lot of sense. Despite rcw's insistence that he didn't want to derail TubeHunter's lynch, that's exactly what happened. The only thing bugging me about this is that rcw listed only Iso and Tube as potential scum. Scum never do this. If Tube was scum, scumrcw would normally have another (town) player on that list of potentials. At least one. You don't narrow it down to two where one is your buddy and the other is most likely cleared. If
Tube was town, scumrcw wouldn't derail a perfectly good wagon to go after Iso, especially after I just got through saying that he's not going to be lynched today and especially especially since rcw had been knocked off the potentials list of both me and Iso. I'm just not seeing a solid scum agenda either way, which leaves me with rcw as town. Awkward town who decided a promise was more important than chilling out? I guess so? Ugh. I think I need to go over this again.
I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all
TubeHunter said he'd elaborate, but I'd actually rather ask you to do so. Please elaborate.

(Hope your midterm went well, by the way!)
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Postby Iso » Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:49 am

Iso, you're saying rcw quoted you out of context (presumably for malicious reasons). Can you go into detail there, because I'm not seeing it. Are you just talking about the fact that he said L-2 instead of L-1?
I'm not sure if it's malicious or not - that depends on whether or not rcw recognizes that the fact that putting Checkbox at L-1 instead of L-2 completely changes the context of what happened and what was said.
I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all
Why?
I've put in (again, emphasis added) the word "past." You'll see that my points remain unchanged. I simply made the mistake of writing "to" and "at" instead of "past." It really doesn't change the meaning that I intended. And to focus in on such a tiny detail seems scummy to me. Trying to throw out an entire case because of such an insignificant detail, and get everybody wrapped up in it.
Do you not understand that it changes the entire premise of what you're saying, as it completely validates everything I've said about it up to this point?
[quote="Iso » Wed Oct 09, 2013 5:33 pm":
w2owyz8l]"It's not. It COULD be. But it doesn't HAVE to be. It could also be you putting that in there to hedge on it in case you had no idea whether they're blue or green."

So you're suggesting I'm some kind of master scum manipulator?
Iso, you've got be kidding with this...you definitely have the ability to be a "master scum manipulator"[/quote]
Iso, you've got be kidding with this...you definitely have the ability to be a "master scum manipulator"
Yeah, that caught my eye too. Some of Iso's defense feels less than genuine. But you're town, right Iso? God damnit.
I just wanted my
ego stroked a bit. :D
Okay, back on track. rcw/TubeHunter scumteam makes a lot of sense. Despite rcw's insistence that he didn't want to derail TubeHunter's lynch, that's exactly what happened. The only thing bugging me about this is that rcw listed only Iso and Tube as potential scum. Scum never do this. If Tube was scum, scumrcw would normally have another (town) player on that list of potentials. At least one. You don't narrow it down to two where one is your buddy and the other is most likely cleared. If Tube was town, scumrcw wouldn't derail a perfectly good wagon to go after Iso, especially after I just got through saying that he's not going to be lynched today and especially especially since rcw had been knocked off the potentials list of both me and Iso. I'm just not seeing a solid scum agenda either way, which leaves me with rcw as town. Awkward
town who decided a promise was more important than chilling out? I guess so? Ugh. I think I need to go over this again.
:thumbsup: Given that rcw made it clear he doesn't understand why there's such a big difference, I think calling him town is fair.
I agree that the iso/rcw exchange is not making rcw look good at all
TubeHunter said he'd elaborate, but I'd actually rather ask you to do so. Please elaborate.
And once again, inb4'd by Stardust.
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Postby Checkbox » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:56 am

I had started the re-read and mega-post for today, but then got sidetracked by an IRL cube draft. Things coming tomorrow, just FYI for everyone.

(My midterm went very well, by the way. :D )
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Postby Stardust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:42 pm

Oh for the love of cube.

Iso, do you sometimes act scummy on purpose? Not talking about gambits here. Just for no real reason.
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Postby imopen2 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Oh for the love of cube.

Iso, do you sometimes act scummy on purpose? Not talking about gambits here. Just for no real reason.
I have thought iso was scummy in every game I've played with him so far but there are never enough people to lynch him. Especially in games when manders is acting as his bodyguard ^_^
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Postby Stardust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:22 pm

Or Stardust, in this case... :slant:
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Postby Stardust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:24 pm

But don't talk about ongoing games, even if you're talking about the dead. What other games have you played with Iso?
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Postby imopen2 » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:20 pm

But don't talk about ongoing games, even if you're talking about the dead. What other games have you played with Iso?
I played in the first game on this site with iso
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Postby Iso » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:39 pm

Oh for the love of cube.

Iso, do you sometimes act scummy on purpose? Not talking about gambits here. Just for no real reason.
It's not on purpose. :( I don't know why people almost always think I'm scummy.
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Postby Clownfish » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:44 pm

Hello all. I've caught up to the thread, read and re-read day two. Here are my thoughts:

First off: rwcraspy's case of Iso. I feel like Iso has actually done a whole lot of scummy things in this game, but raspy's case is very weak. I have a number of reasons to believe Iso is town, and they are more convincing than the scummy posts I've seen, let alone the things raspy brought up. That said, I don't see what scumraspy would stand to gain from this case, and my read after day 1 for him was town, so I'm just chalking this up to a difference in our respective evaluation of Iso's posts.

On a somewhat related note, Iso, since I heard you like having your ego stroked; I'll just say if you are actually scum I have a lot of respect for how convincingly you play what I'm currently putting you on.
So that naked vote on Tubehunter was actually for RedNihilist's benefit. I saw that he was online and thought I might be able to force a response, even if that response was him saying my naked vote was scummy. Obviously that didn't work. The fact that he refuses to even comment (let alone take sides) on the Checkbox vs. Tubehunter issue makes me think that he's got ties with one or the other. Defend a buddy unsuccessfully and that looks terrible. Jump on the wagon of the townie player, and it looks like you're following your buddy too closely. So is it Checkbox or Tubehunter?

Before I try to answer that question, I'd better make sure Red is actually scum. For everyone's benefit, here are all his posts.
Stardust, it seemed like you wanted to give an estimation of who are most likely to be scumbuddies. Did I miss
this, or have you held off on that for now? I don't necessarily want to pre-empt you on this, but what about Checkbox and RedNihilist as a scumteam? I just thought of that, and going through Checkbox's posts found this which is pretty much the only time he really posts about or at RedNihilist, and might well be a friendly bit of scumbuddy advice. I think TubeHunter might be town panicking like a deer in the headlights when under scrutiny. I don't think he would be so quick to jump on RedNihilist after you cased the latter if they were buddies. Checkbox put up a pretty good case against TubeHunter before the bandwagon was even started to which the response was basically an angry "NO U", so I think that discounts them as a scumteam. Of the three (to me) suspicious players, this leaves a team of RedNihilist and Checkbox.
You were suspicious of Red because he didn't clarify his Suga vote? He at least gave a reason for voting Suga, whereas you just stated that Suga was "acting scummy", without giving any further clarification or reasoning yourself.
This is not necessarily true, as seen in this post.
Don't just give up and be Suga2.0. That is the worst possible thing for the town right now.
Of course, if you are scum, feel free to just roll over and die.

:stubborn:
The fact that these are two posts instead of one really bothers me. Should be fairly obvious why, I think.
I'm sorry, it's not entirely self-evident to me. Is it because making a second post suggests Checkbox feels like a caveat for the case that TubeHunter is scum is necessary, in turn suggesting that he actually knows TubeHunter is town? If not, could you explain your thought process here?
A second ago you "knew" I was town. Now you don't trust me?

I've also already said that the information is right here in this
thread, the details of which I will reveal in time. If you can't see it, it's not my fault, and is in fact the whole reason why I'm keeping it secret - I don't want you to know.

I'll leave the quiz running for a while before I describe why what TubeHunter's doing right now is actually a really solid scum tell.
I'm gonna guess that saying "I'm so confused right now..." is a total fence-sit. It can easily progress into "...because you are acting all scummy!" or "...because I don't understand why you would keep a secret from your fellow townies." based on the other responses to that post.
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Postby Stardust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:01 pm

Stardust, it seemed like you wanted to give an estimation of who are most likely to be scumbuddies. Did I miss this, or have you held off on that for now?
After casing each one in turn, I decided that trying to tie people together isn't very valuable at this time. Trying to do that too early has burned me before. Towards the end of toDay I will be putting out what I see as the potential combinations of who we have left in case I don't make it through the night.
what about Checkbox and RedNihilist as a scumteam?
That is a strong possibility. I like your thought
process in the rest of this paragraph. You're looking at the right things, at least.
I don't think he would be so quick to jump on RedNihilist after you cased the latter if they were buddies.
Don't be so sure. When you see yourself as a sinking ship, reacting by jumping on your scum buddy is very common. Either they get lynched and you get to say, "See! I was right!" or you get lynched and everyone says exactly what you just said, clearing your buddy. To me, this is a null tell.
Checkbox put up a pretty good case against TubeHunter before the bandwagon was even started to which the response was basically an angry "NO U", so I think that
discounts them as a scumteam.
Agreed. Checkbox targeting TubeHunter out of the blue was strange enough, but TubeHunter's reaction to Checkbox's case really sealed this for me.
Don't just give up and be Suga2.0. That is the worst possible thing for the town right now.
Of course, if you are scum, feel free to just roll
over and die.

:stubborn:
The fact that these are two posts instead of one really bothers me. Should be fairly obvious why, I think.
I'm sorry, it's not entirely self-evident to me. Is it because making a second post suggests Checkbox feels like a caveat for the case that TubeHunter is scum is necessary, in turn suggesting that he actually knows TubeHunter is town? If not, could you explain your thought process here?
What went through Checkbox's head to make the second post? His first post is pretty innocuous (a town player could have posted that), but it's common among scum players to be paranoid about showing that they know someone is town. Checkbox may have thought his first post made it look like that, so he quickly made a second post to prove that he's unsure. Further, townCheckbox should be more or less convinced that Tube is scum. At least
certain enough that that should have been his first thought rather than his second.
I'm gonna guess that saying "I'm so confused right now..." is a total fence-sit. It can easily progress into "...because you are acting all scummy!" or "...because I don't understand why you would keep a secret from your fellow townies." based on the other responses to that post.
Hah, I'd forgotten that I never went back to this! Nice try, but that's not what I saw (and I don't think being confused counts as a scum tell). As I said, Red was close when he said it was about TubeHunter asking for information.

Let's jump into Tube's head for a second. Stardust (someone who you strongly consider to be town) has just said that Iso is town and that he and Iso have a secret that is best kept secret for the moment.
What would townTube think? Maybe something along the lines of "Oh good! Finally we know something the scum don't!" Would he care what it was? Probably, but he would care more about continuing to keep the scum in the dark. Would he immediately jump into the thread asking for more information? No way! He knows Stardust is town, he knows there must be a reason to keep the info hidden, so the most he should be asking for is a timeline on when this will be revealed. Instead we see frustration.

So what about scumTube? I can tell you from experience that being scum and NOT knowing something is awful. In my first two scum games, power roles were hinted at and I just couldn't let it slide. I kept prodding, kept insisting that they weren't cleared until they claimed, even though everyone else had moved on. It got me lynched in the second game, for good reason. That frustration and fear that you won't be able to make your nightkill work (or worse, that you'll get caught doing it) is really innate.
That's exactly what I saw in TubeHunter's post.
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Postby Stardust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:16 pm

Oh for the love of cube.

Iso, do you sometimes act scummy on purpose? Not talking about gambits here. Just for no real reason.
It's not on purpose. :( I don't know why people almost always think I'm scummy.
For your benefit, Iso, a list of scummy things you have done recently.

- Overblowing the "quoting out of context" thing when rcw didn't even quote you out of context. Misquoting would be more accurate. Stick to the facts so it doesn't look like you're the one doing the
twisting. Look at this quote if you don't believe it was overblown.
Put yourself in my shoes. If you're town getting cased and somebody presents something so flawed that it's obvious that the case is not sincere and that they chose to twist facts and quotes out of context, how would you react?
All that because rcw said L-2 instead of L-1? Drama queen, much? Additionally, this question looks like a trap.

- Flipping your read on rcw immediately after I show mine, except that your reasoning is based entirely on the fact that his case on you was honest. That reasoning is self-absorbed and illogical. Being self-absorbed is scummy for obvious reasons. The reason I say it's illogical is that scum are perfectly capable of creating honest cases too.

- Flat out misrepresenting your own abilities with the dubious reasoning that you
wanted your ego stroked. Maybe this all does come back to being self-absorbed after all... :love2:

That's all I've got off the top of my head. Lucky for you, you're always scummy. imopen just proved it himself by referencing a game in which you were town. Sure as hell makes my life a lot harder though.
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Postby TubeHunter » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:40 am

Hah, I'd forgotten that I never went back to this! Nice try, but that's not what I saw (and I don't think being confused counts as a scum tell). As I said, Red was close when he said it was about TubeHunter asking for information.

Let's jump into Tube's head for a second. Stardust (someone who you strongly consider to be town) has just said that Iso is town and that he and Iso have a secret that is best kept secret for the moment. What would townTube think? Maybe something along the lines of "Oh good! Finally we know something the scum don't!" Would he care what it was? Probably, but he would care more about continuing to keep the scum in the dark. Would he immediately jump into the thread asking for more information? No way! He knows Stardust is town, he knows there must be a reason to keep the info hidden, so the most he should be asking for is a timeline on when this will be revealed. Instead we see
frustration.

So what about scumTube? I can tell you from experience that being scum and NOT knowing something is awful. In my first two scum games, power roles were hinted at and I just couldn't let it slide. I kept prodding, kept insisting that they weren't cleared until they claimed, even though everyone else had moved on. It got me lynched in the second game, for good reason. That frustration and fear that you won't be able to make your nightkill work (or worse, that you'll get caught doing it) is really innate. That's exactly what I saw in TubeHunter's post.[/quote]

Clownfish hit the nail on the head with "withhold info from the town" part. I realized what a bonehead thing that was to say almost immediately after. I'm pretty sure I figured it out anyways though.

Frankly I've have a question for checkbox and red.

Who are your scum suspects? (Yes, even me, as shocking as that is) why? ( box you don't really have to give your answer on me as we already know, but feel free to
add anything)
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Postby TubeHunter » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:42 am

Damn managing quotes on your phone is a pain.
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Postby Iso » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:49 am

@Stardust:

"- Overblowing the "quoting out of context" thing when rcw didn't even quote you out of context. Misquoting would be more accurate. Stick to the facts so it doesn't look like you're the one doing the twisting. Look at this quote if you don't believe it was overblown."

How was I to know that he was misquoting instead of quoting out of context? :shrug: At first glance, it could have easily been malicious.


"All that because rcw said L-2 instead of L-1? Drama queen, much? Additionally, this question looks like a trap."

It wasn't a trap so much as a carefully constructed response to gauge his reaction.


"- Flipping your read on rcw immediately after I show mine, except that your reasoning is based entirely on the fact that his case on you was honest. That reasoning is self-
absorbed and illogical. Being self-absorbed is scummy for obvious reasons. The reason I say it's illogical is that scum are perfectly capable of creating honest cases too."

Okay, when am I ever not self-absorbed in Mafia? I know my alignment and role and that's usually it when a game of Mafia begins. That is the line from which I shoot, as it helps me understand where people stand better and get a grasp on their own alignments, as if I don't use myself as a basis, I have no direction. I once said in a Mafia game, "No matter what I play as, I'm always self-aligned." Regardless of what team I'm on, I have a plan. Whether or not they choose to follow it is up to them, but there are going to invariably be some heads to butt with if people don't agree with the direction I'm taking. I don't see why thinking I know best makes me scummy. Also, in regards to the rcw read, if I had posted before you, it wouldn't have been "right after" you decided you
thought rcw was town. The timing was incidental, and as I've already stated, the context of the quoting argument made a hell of a lot more difference than rcw seemed to think - which is incidentally what gave me my town read on him.

I think all this shows is that people don't understand me. :frown:
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Postby Stardust » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:15 am

Didn't mean to make you sad. Just trying to help you understand where that's coming from. I have fun playing with you and all that. You're just scummy. :D

By the way, misquoting is different from quoting out of context. Both can be malicious. Saying rcw did one when he really did the other just had me confused and leaves you looking like you're making things up (since he never quoted out of context, which is what I was looking for). Maybe I'm just too anal when it comes to mafia. :shrug:
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Postby Iso » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:31 am

Again, I don't see how it's scummy to play as the focus of the game - I have differing opinions from other players and I'm the only one who knows which of my views are genuine and which are not. "I think, therefore I am." The information I collect through my senses is central to me and everything else is secondary - I want to lynch who I think is scum.

Eh, grammar flop/discrepancy. I thought it was one, you thought it was the other, the differences caused misunderstanding between us, and you thought I was scummy as a result.

Which goes back to my last line in my last post. ;)
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Postby Stardust » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:03 pm

Clownfish hit the nail on the head with "withhold info from the town" part. I realized what a bonehead thing that was to say almost immediately after.
Could you please explain that in your own words rather than stealing Clownfish's? Just detail exactly what was going through your mind at the time. Also, if you realised it was boneheaded, why not make a "nevermind" post immediately after?
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Postby TubeHunter » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:26 pm

Frustration. When you are are the fast track to being mislynch number 2 after being fairly certain that you were pretty safe. And when you floundered under pressure like I did, you begin to get frustrated. When I saw your info posts, in my mindset it came out as "tee hee we know info that could help the town but were not going to tell you" also, it's not fun feeling like 1 vs all, and when you hear a suspected town player say they have information you feel like " oh god maybe that info can help me out please Someone help me". As to no never mind post, have you ever been upset and made a bad desicion and knew it was bad but you didn't care cause you were upset? And then later you are like " oh god i fucked up!" That is what happened to me.
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Postby Stardust » Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:44 pm

Okay. Let's move on for now.

Vote: RedNihilist.
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Postby rcwraspy » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:26 pm

Frustration. When you are are the fast track to being mislynch number 2 after being fairly certain that you were pretty safe. And when you floundered under pressure like I did, you begin to get frustrated. When I saw your info posts, in my mindset it came out as "tee hee we know info that could help the town but were not going to tell you" also, it's not fun feeling like 1 vs all, and when you hear a suspected town player say they have information you feel like " oh god maybe that info can help me out please Someone help me". As to no never mind post, have you ever been upset and made a bad desicion and knew it was bad but you didn't care cause you were upset? And then later you are like " oh god i fucked up!" That is what happened
to me.
Now why'd you have to go and make me think about my vote? This is just you trying to appeal to our emotions, right? Right?
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Postby Clownfish » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:25 pm

Stardust, it seemed like you wanted to give an estimation of who are most likely to be scumbuddies. Did I miss this, or have you held off on that for now?
After casing each one in turn, I decided that trying to tie people together isn't very valuable at this time. Trying to do that too early has burned me before. Towards the end of toDay I will be putting out what I see as the potential combinations of who we have left in case I don't make it through the night.
Alright, duly noted. I do think that Checkbox, RedNihilist and TubeHunter are most likely to be
scum at this point and I suspect them by a significant margin over anyone else. In that respect, I still feel like analysing the possible scumbuddy setups is useful for the following reason:
I don't think he would be so quick to jump on RedNihilist after you cased the latter if they were buddies.
Don't be so sure. When you see yourself as a sinking ship, reacting by jumping on your scum buddy is very common. Either they get lynched and you get to say, "See! I was right!" or you get lynched and everyone says exactly what you just said, clearing your buddy. To me, this is a null tell.
That's very good to know. It means that there
is still a decent chance of RedNihilist and TubeHunter being in a scumteam. The two most likely scum teams in my eyes then both include RedNihilist, which makes me want to put more pressure on him.
What went through Checkbox's head to make the second post? His first post is pretty innocuous (a town player could have posted that), but it's common among scum players to be paranoid about showing that they know someone is town. Checkbox may have thought his first post made it look like that, so he quickly made a second post to prove that he's unsure. Further, townCheckbox should be more or less convinced that Tube is scum. At least certain enough that that should have been his first thought rather than his second.
Cool, that was sort of along the lines I was thinking. The paranoia bit makes a lot of sense.

[quote=&
quot;Stardust » Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:01 pm"]
I'm gonna guess that saying "I'm so confused right now..." is a total fence-sit. It can easily progress into "...because you are acting all scummy!" or "...because I don't understand why you would keep a secret from your fellow townies." based on the other responses to that post.
Hah, I'd forgotten that I never went back to this! Nice try, but that's not what I saw (and I don't think being confused counts as a scum tell). As I said, Red was close when he said it was about TubeHunter asking for information.

Let's jump into Tube's head for a second. Stardust (someone who you strongly consider to be town) has just said that Iso is
town and that he and Iso have a secret that is best kept secret for the moment. What would townTube think? Maybe something along the lines of "Oh good! Finally we know something the scum don't!" Would he care what it was? Probably, but he would care more about continuing to keep the scum in the dark. Would he immediately jump into the thread asking for more information? No way! He knows Stardust is town, he knows there must be a reason to keep the info hidden, so the most he should be asking for is a timeline on when this will be revealed. Instead we see frustration.

So what about scumTube? I can tell you from experience that being scum and NOT knowing something is awful. In my first two scum games, power roles were hinted at and I just couldn't let it slide. I kept prodding, kept insisting that they weren't cleared until they claimed, even though everyone else had moved on. It got me lynched in the second game, for good reason. That frustration and fear that you won't be able to make your
nightkill work (or worse, that you'll get caught doing it) is really innate. That's exactly what I saw in TubeHunter's post.[/quote]
So it's basically an inconsistency between what TubeHunter says and does? He says he considers you town, so he should have no reason to doubt you keeping that information to yourself is in the interest of the town - but he does. Thanks for explaining :)

Considering what I said above about RedNihilist being part of both likely scumteam setups and the fact that he is by far the most waffling player among us, I would like to put him at L-2. RedNihilist, I hope this will bring out some substantial posts that we can use to determine your alignment. I'm looking for your thoughts about who you consider scum and what your reasoning for that is.

Vote: RedNihilist
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Postby Checkbox » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:39 pm

Ok, finally did my re-read.

Thoughts:

First off... IMOPEN2 NEEDS TO POST MORE. If that dude is scum he is hiding extremely well and no one is calling him on it.

Secondly;

Iso, I did not like your rcw case. I read it, and your reasoning was similar to mine against TubeHunter so I at least see where you were coming from in general, but overall the case just wasn't there for me.

rcw and RedNihilist are my other two scumreads at this point.

rcw:
Page 7, rather than give original content, /barns Suga and says "I'm going to look into Checkbox and Iso because that's what that dead townie said I should do." Keep in mind, rcw's first content-filled post of the game came on page 3, and even then all he did was /barn Stardust at that point.
Page 4 he asks to hear more from people without offering any actual insight to the game state or
reads at all. He falls hard into the "doing nothing but /barning" category that TubeHunter and RedNihilist are into, and right now that's a large part of why they are on my scum-radar.
Page 7 he says Tube is starting to look scummy - After a decent case has been made and many have chimed in saying he is scummy-looking right now. To rcw's credit, he does grill Tube a bit before throwing his vote there,
rcw does finally come in with some original content (a case on Iso), and to me it feels forced. Like he really had to try and go find things to say about him - this makes sense because the reasoning for making the case in the first place is coming from Suga, not rcw himself. For example, he tried pointing out that Iso "steered the wagon", so to speak, on Suga. Suga dug his own grave, through and through, that is clear as day. The wagon was strong because Suga himself was pushing it. Iso then defends the case in a strong way IMO, and rcw comes back looking worse than before. Iso points
out inconsistencies with rcw's case, and rcw comes back with next to nothing. :shrug: to me, Iso won that exchange, and it wasn't even close.
rcw then says its scummy for Iso to focus on the L-2/L-1 typo, but still hasn't actually answered the inconsistencies brought up with his case. rcw, to me, is trying to deflect the pressure being brought on his flimsy case in any way he can.

Stardust, why do you think rcw is town? I don't quite follow your explanation above. This is especially confusing since you acsed him on Page 8 and landed him on scum.

RedNihilist:

Correctly identified Suga on day 1 as being too aggressive - this is about the only townie thing I've seen him do.
Up until page 4, he just seemed new to me rather than being scummy. Then on page 4, he feels the need to point out that he has "nothing to hide", and uses the phrase "my poor self".
Townies should act with a bit more conviction, no?
Later on Page 7, he starts questioning the accusations of our only confirmed Townie. Despite Suga being wrong about me (I am town), what possible reason would Suga (a townie himself) have to just throw random accusations out there before he dies? Unless he is a uber-troll, presumably his reads were sincere at that point. The fact that Red tried discrediting them worries me.
After Red gets cased and voted, he plays the victim like TubeHunter did - "I have been playing poorly, I don't blame you for voting me" and even calls Stardust town for his case... literally the same exact thing TubeHunter did.
Then after he gets some original questioning and thought processes going, he just abandons them very quickly and says "I'm going to go read TubeHunter's posts now". At this point, he should absolutely have some reads going, enough that he shouldn't just have to /barn the "lynch of the day" when his only original content of the
game gets questioned a bit.

Those are my thoughts on those two. Frankly, I'd be ok with lynching either of them today, although TubeHunter still looks scummy as hell to me. If I had to single one out, it would be TubeHunter because he has only continued to deflect attention off of himself and has done nothing to convince me of his townieness since claiming. In fact...

TubeHunter, after OMGUS'ing a vote on me, moves back to RedNihilist (on page 8) after being reminded that he targeted Red late Day 1. This is super scummy to me; if he were townie, presumably he wouldn't have forgotten about that read and wouldn't have to be reminded of it pages later only after he came out of a case/response exchange looking worse than before.

Other thoughts:
Stardust - you asked me a few questions a few pages back.

"1) If your entire issue with Iso was that he went against the spirit of the game, why did you think Iso was
scum?"

When I first went through the thought process of the initial "gamble" post, I wasn't quite comprehending what had happened and was being fairly illogical (along with not quite knowing how to phrase what I was trying to say). My main thought was (and is) that it does not auto-confirm Iso as town, as you seem to think it does.

"2) In light of Suga's flip, what do you think of imopen2? And Iso too, while you're at it."

imopen2 has had like 10 posts all game. He really needs to post more.

Iso... I'm >90% sure he is town, for a variety of reasons. One of which being his response to his case (though its not terribly difficult to look good when a flimsy case like that is thrown at you).

3) Respond to my responses to your case. There are two questions there that I want answers to.

"What if I told you that noob scum are more likely to just keep quiet rather than throwing out random comments in the beginning of the game?"

I would trust my reads over
that, as I don't read too much into "noob players tend to X" statements.

"Let's say a hypothetical townie wanted to cast the first real vote on that wagon, following my initial grilling of Suga. How would that townie vote look, in your opinion?"

It would probably consist of reasoning behind the vote. Doesn't even have to be much, but more than "you look scummy now".

I think this is enough for now.
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Postby TubeHunter » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:03 pm

I've always had red on my scum radar, he never left. Just beacuase I foolishly OMGUS you doesn't mean that I forgot. Though you do make a great point with imopen.


Thanks for answering my question.
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Postby Checkbox » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:18 pm

My point is that early Day 2, rather than sitting around waiting for someone else to create action, if red was really on your radar, you could've grilled/cased him a bit. Instead, you waited for action to be created and ended up on the wrong end of it, which doesn't look good for you.
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Postby Iso » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:21 pm

@Checkbox: As I said, my rcw case was weak and it caused me to reconsider my read on him.

We keep changing directions toDay, and I like that Stardust is leading these charges because it reminds me of when Seppel or I are town and we cut ourselves off and go somewhere completely different. More town points to Stardust.
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Postby Iso » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:21 pm

Though it feels weird that I'm not the one doing it, for once.
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