New Card Talk & Future Brews[Post-M15] Rw Burn

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[Post-M15] Rw Burn

Post #1 by magicdownunder » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:40 am

[deck=MDU's RW Burn]Lands 23
8 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
3 Mutavault
2 Boros Guildgate
1 Temple of Silence
1 Battlefield Forge

Creatures 08
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Chandra's Phoenix

Enchantments and Removal 04
4 Chained to the Rocks

Burns 25
4 Magma Jet
4 Warleader's Helix
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
3 Shock
2 Stoke The Flames

Sideboard 15
1 Mutavault
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Banishing Light
2 Pillar of Light
3 Hushwing Griffon
4 Toil // Trouble[/deck]

Stoke The Flames: 4cc MonoR burn which can be pointed up and down with an upside for possible 0-3cc? Sure sign me up

Battlefield Forge: the 12th white source which can replace MC because it doesn't deal 3-5 damage too you all the time? Sign me up again

Pillar of Light: An Exile card which focuses on toughness over power??? FOR SURE take that gary, courser, god
cards and all the other usual targets

Hushwing Griffon: <-- ok I'll admit I'm bias about this guys, perhaps he is horrible standard and It won't even see play but I LOVE cards which fly and have flash it also shits on Sin Collector, Tidebinder, Ghostdad, Gary, LBZ, MOW, FoM, weird Jund Enchantment decks.
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Post #2 by DerWille » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:11 am

I'm more skeptical about Stoke the Flames than Hushwing Griff.

I'm worried that 6 4 mana cards might be taxing the mana too much. It seems great with Young Pyromancer and his tokens, but wouldn't I rather be attacking with my birds than tapping them for mana? I'm also worried that -2 Searing Blood will make the vs aggro match ups a lot harder.

The Griff though, I think it has potential. The card becomes "Counter whatever you were about to do unless you have removal RIGHT NOW". Even if you're only able to counter a single card, it was mostly like one of their win cons or critical support cards. Wasn't that the point of playing Skullcrack? To shut down a few win cons/critical support cards? Now it does that and can be a threat to win the game with.

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Post #3 by Elricity » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:05 pm

Searing blood has never changed how the aggro match plays out.

I do also think 2 stoke might be too much maindeck unless you're hedging hard against nightveil specter. A second in sideboard I can get behind though.

The rest is just playing with the amounts of cards. The main reason I might not follow you on this is I'm trying to save tickets for Khans to build a new deck.

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Post #4 by magicdownunder » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:18 pm

I just wanted more four damage spells which I can point at face :sweat:
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Post #5 by Elricity » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:55 pm

Appreciated and it might be the right call. I'm just scared game 1 of having 6 high cost spells before I can remove the chaff. I'm likely underrating the convoke portion more than I should though.

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Post #6 by DerWille » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:30 pm

Elricity » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:05 am wrote:Searing blood has never changed how the aggro match plays out.


Except all the times it did. The card puts you ahead in the race while answering their threat X/2 threats which is about everything in their deck. It lets you beat their nut draws, turn losing games into wins, and even punishes them hard if they putter.

I'm with you on potentially underestimating convoke though. I'm willing to give it a shot, but I'm skeptical.

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Post #7 by Purp » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:31 pm

Fuck the Guildgates.

@Searing Blood - I side this out in aggro matches sometimes. I'm not trying to race them.
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Post #8 by Elricity » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:59 pm

DerWille » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:30 pm wrote:
Elricity » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:05 am wrote:Searing blood has never changed how the aggro match plays out.


Except all the times it did. The card puts you ahead in the race...


The only deck that I'm "racing" that has <2 toughness creatures is the burn mirror and it can be a liability (see my sideboard plan vs mirror. It's mediocre game 1 vs black devotion and awful post board.

You are not racing a deck with repeatable damage sources vs your one time sources.

The spell isn't bad but right now, it makes our aggro matchup the same and midrange and control worse. It shines against control decks
with multiple targets and that just isn't right now.

Apologies if this comes off as rude.

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Post #9 by DerWille » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:06 pm

No worries.

I never said that it was good in those match ups (I agree, it's mediocre vs black and awful vs UWx). I was focusing on the aggro match up. I think the difference is in meta between my area and MTGO. When I go to a tournament in this area (5 stores, varying competitiveness, more if it's entry with good prizes) that I will go against an aggro deck 100% of the time. Usually it's in the later stages, sometimes early (and if so, I'll probably see 2+ aggro decks during the tournament). It's a match up I give due respect.

Race may have been the wrong word, but it's how I think of it. He's trying to kill me. I'm trying to stop him. Classic beat down vs control. I'm trying to 1 for 1 and if he does 1 drop into 2 drop or has a BTE chain, I will be taking damage. Incremental damage will start to add up as we both approach a top deck war. Going in 8 to 16 health while top decking is dangerously close to not
winning. He's a couple spells from taking the game out of no where. If we can get into a top deck war with similar life totals, I'm confident that my top deck cards are going to win that. Searing Blood lets me get to that point.

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Post #10 by zemanjaski » Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:45 am

Searing Blood is fine, but there's only so many 2 damage Shock effects you can run; I think it's only includable after 4 shock and 4 magma jet, which are each better for different reasons, and veins that I don't want more two damage spells, especially conditional ones.
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Post #11 by Purp » Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:39 pm

Firedancer will be a thing if the new Ajani sees a lot of play.
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Post #12 by Elricity » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:27 pm

You mean playing them together?

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Post #13 by magicdownunder » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:32 pm

I think he means if Wx based decks pick up in popularity Fire Dancer will be a good card again.

I highly doubt it will happen for longer then a week or two because Bx Devo can metagame against it very well.......

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Post #14 by Purp » Wed Jul 09, 2014 3:57 pm

I see YP$ effectiveness dropping, there are too many way for Coursers , Caryatids and Tokens to get counters. But then again, maybe standard won't change at all.
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Post #15 by Valdarith » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:47 pm

I do think people will experiment a little more with small white-based builds, so keep your Satyr Firedancers handy just in case.
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Post #16 by LP, of the Fires » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:31 pm

From playing lots of magic through many rotations, what usually happens this time of year is that you get maybe one newish deck(ala kibler gruul) and a bunch of SUPER SAYIAN DECKS that got some sort of steriod from the block and/or people figuring out how to merge archetypes with new mana being available.

I won't speculate on new decks, but what I'd really expect to see would be a super powered B/x devotion deck(llanowar wastes, urborg, sign in blood), a resurgence of white weenie(new ajani and a mountain of other white cards that I can't think of in addition to 2 white dual lands), some slight upgrades to Jund monsters(Garruk?, Souls? etc.), and esper getting froggy with more double black removal spells(cave of koilos).

All that being said, as a burn player, I'd absolutely be playing stroke the flames as I'm trying to keep up in the arms race of adding power to your deck. You could also probably be fine adding
satyr firedancer to your decks as a hedge against increased aggro showing up in a "new" format. There's almost always one aggressive deck that for the last 4 months gained everything that it ever wanted(B/r zombies in delver standard was the best deck at the end of that format, Kibler gruul was excellent, tempered steel from WAY back was good).

As for potential new decks cropping up, while I again am hesitant to make guesses, green got a LOT of good cards so Kibler might have a punchers chance of being able to win something again. There's an actual ETB 2-4-1 creature in standard again in reclamation sage, there are 2 tutor effects, a powerful soul, etc.
You gotta understand, I love the beatdown. I really do. I always have.

Beatdown is hard, though.


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Post #17 by Tyrael » Wed Jul 09, 2014 11:36 pm



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Post #18 by SiRe » Sat Jul 12, 2014 9:30 pm

Hey guys I'm really new on the board here and just want to briefly introduce myself before throwing decks out. I'm a long-time mostly-casual player who has only ever really done local small tournaments and FNMs. I'm usually good enough to 3-1 or 4-0 in a very competitive store in Standard, and I also like playing Legacy Elves. I am mostly drawn to RW Burn because it oddly feels like the truest 'combo deck' in the format. It holds the line until you assemble the 'combo' of burning them to death on their end step plus your turn. I used to play 1 Maindeck Dictate of the Twin Gods for those really insane 'oops I win' moments, but found it to be the classic do nothing card when I was losing. The card advantage engine of Young Pyro and Chandra's Phoenix is not to be underrated and our card quality mana efficiency is extremely high. Another thing I love about this deck is the high density
of insants so it's possible to play an effective draw-go control style while backing up a threat, a la Delver Decks or Faeries decks of olde. Anyways, you all know this stuff, but I just wanted to remind everyone of where we're coming from with this deck to maybe trigger some ideas of how we can progress it forward. The meta is gonna change, and we'll need to adapt with it.

Anyways, after reading through tons of posts on here and now playing with some of the cards in M15, this is the list I'm considering right now. Pardon me if I mess up the formatting the first few times.

[deck=SiRe's RW Control-Burn]Lands 23
3 Battlefield Forge
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Temple of Triumph
1 Temple of Silence
3 Mutavault
8 Mountain

Creatures 9
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Hushwing Gryff

Non-creature Spells 28
4 Chained to the Rocks
4 Shock
3 Magma Jet
4 Lightning Strike
4 Skullcrack
4 Boros Charm
4 Warleader's Helix
1 Stoke the Flames

Sideboard 15
1 Assemble the Legion
2
Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
2 Banishing Light
1 Mutavault
2 Prophetic Flamespeaker
1 Blind Obedience
1 Wear//Tear
1 Keening Apparition
2 Pillar of Light
[/deck]

The new manabase is the result of simply exchanging the Boros Guildgate and Mana Confluence from the standard setup for Battlefield Forge. I prefer 5 or more scrylands if possible, but also want to make sure I have at least 12 white sources and 12 Mountains for Chain to the Rocks. The one maindeck Hushwing Gryff is purely experimental (also I just happen to have only one right now). I believe the card is totally bonkers but I'm not sure if I want to devote multiple slots to a card that seems best as a one- or two-of. The first one is almost Spellstutter Sprite in White. It comes in, hoses Gary and Master of Waves (as well as others I'm sure I can't think of at the moment), and beats for two in the air. It eve helps against Ghost Council of Orzhova, one of the worst cards for me to see. Since we mostly play draw-go anyways, I
think this is a tremendous option. If I wanted to add another, I think I would cut either another Magma Jet or one Warleader's Helix. Another card I'm experimenting with is Stoke the Flames. The card seems strong but I keep wondering whether it's actually better than a singleton Mizzium Mortars. Mortars has performed very well for me with its low cost and occasionally I'll stall long enough to two- or three-for one people with it. The card also gets around Hexproof, and is one of the only ways we have to beat random Hexproof stuff. For now I'll try it out, but it makes me nervous having access to fewer total copies of Mortars, even if this does go to the face.

My sideboard is pretty standard with a lot of one-ofs of cards I think are excellent when you only draw one. Blind Obedience is an excellent one-of because the marginal value of subsequent ones isn't very good. Assemble the Legion, similarly is just busted when you stick one and can protect it. It's basically unbeatable against Mono Black
and does great work against UWx control, and in both those matchups you're bringing in your extra Mutavault anyways (shoutout to Zem for this sick tech that has won me more games against control than I can count now). The new tech here is Pillar of Light, which is actually arguably the best removal spell we have in RW. It removes creatures based on their toughness so it gets pretty much everything that scares us normally. With only a relatively small amount of testing, I am seriously considerincutting g the safety Banishing Lights and pushing this card to 4 SB just because of how many problems this card seems to solve. This is finally the answer we needed for basically every creature threat that isn't named Stormbreath Dragon. Only the fact that it is dead in some matchups makes me hesitate from just jamming it into the mainboard. It's an instant playing even more into effective draw-go style! It even gets Ghost Council! The card is definitely good and
probbaly one of the best reasons to want to keep playing the deck in this unknown meta. Between the burn we have and three or more of this card in the sideboard, I don't really think I'd have anything to fear going into next week's unknown meta.

With all that gushing out of the way, I'd like to turn to some cards I've been thinking about (both playing with and against), as well as a few 'out there' ideas I've been thinking on.

First of all, I think Aggressive Mining sucks. Without a way to get rid of this card, it will end up just slowly killing you. I would argue that the two cards competing with Aggressive Mining are Hammer of Purphoros and Chandra, Pyromaster, and I'd say of the three Chandra is by far the superior choice. I have only done a small amount of testing, but already I dislike the card. Like Chandra, Aggressive Mining costs 4, but unlike Chandra, you are unlikely to play it until you have 6 or 7 lands in play, in order to optimize its value. While I think ours is one of the
best possible decks for this card right now, I think decks will evolve a bit to include ways to remove it from play, especially since they can dig hard in order to find it. It's only one red mana symbol, so it may be splashed. With the major enchantment sub-theme of Theros, I'm sure there's some card with good synergy with Aggressive Mining, but I'm really not gonna look for them, because I have a feeling they're not in Red or White. Likewise Hammer begins to slowly grind you out as you create threats. Unlike how Mining draws you cards which you have to cast, Hammer gets you immediate, repeatable damage in the form of Golem tokens. In cases where they have large blockers, I could see the card draw being better, but in a top-deck scenario I think I'd actually prefer the hammer. I'd argue that most of the time when either of these cards are good enough to kill them, you would have been just as well served by Chandra, and she can make a measurable difference in Card Advantage starting on Turn 4, all
while slowly building up to a game-ending ultimate if not answered. If I was going to mix two of the three for best effect, I think Chandra and Hammer is a much better pairing than Chandra and Mining. Basically mining just sucks, it's not better than Chandra and I don't think it is even better than Hammer in this deck. I'm still gonna test it some more to see if there's anything I've missed, but I really, really don't like it so far.

One of the cards I noticed first when browsing the M15 spoiler just before prerelease was Resolute Archangel. No idea how I'd missed this guy, but it seemed very intimidating that control could have a way to gain a large amount of life at an inopportune time. After further thought, though I realized this card is not a threat in the least. We have lots of repeatable damage and tons of ways to kill the body. Besides the burn usually doesn't come gradually, but typically I save it for a big all-in burst to kill people at instant speed. I suppose if they survive, say,
with good counter play, untap and drop this it could be a savage beating, but so long as you don't walk into it, this card should never be threatening. Now: on to Planeswalkers.

Nissa is not a threat to us.

Liliana Vess, however, could be a problem. She is back and her high starting Loyalty could make her a real pain in the ass. Having to one-for-two just to get rid of her (after she tutors for their best card or makes us discard) makes her seem like an incredible threat in Mono Black or even Jund Monsters. If all she does is keep making us discard every turn, she's already excellent. The best bet is to just hold Phoenixes in hand if you suspect she's coming for any reason and try to burn her out or get damage through where you can. I don't really know what to do about her, other than hope Banishing Light and Chandra post-board are good enough to beat her. Anybody got any ideas?

Ajani, too, seems like a terrifying new addition to standard. With the ability to give a creature pump, Lifelink and
Vigilance, I don't think you could design a card better against us in standard. He even has high loyalty! What was Wizards thinking?! Your only hope is the fact that he doesn't directly impact the board at all, and he even offers you the chance to sort of two for one them if he goes to use an ability while you have burn for his creatures. I think as soon as I see a white mana source, I'm going to start playing very differently from now on.

Garruk, Apex Predator is an expensive terror of a card, but honestly I don't feel that threatened by it. It requires a lot of mana and represents a horrifyingly strong threat, but probably won't beat us more often than the other two just because it won't be cast as often. It's probably at its best in Jund Ramp//Monsters, a tough matchup for us anyways, but you may see it in B/g Devotion. In all honesty, though I think I'd be more afraid of an opposing Assemble the Legion.

Another card I'm interested in is Spirit Bonds. As more and more creatures are added
to the deck, this card starts looking better and better. Often in attrition scenarios, every burn spell I draw allows me to recur one or two of my Phoenixes and the option to get flying tokens and possibly make a creature indestructible sounds very nice. I am aware that each extra creature added means fewer burn spells and therefore weaker Phoenixes, but if more creature heavy decks start being played anyways, I feel like this card could potentially find a niche.

So yeah, this was my first post here and I just realized I wrote a book! Hope you guys like it, and thanks again for building a resource that has been nice for me and many of my friends!

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Post #19 by zemanjaski » Sun Jul 13, 2014 4:44 am

New Ajani is horrendous against Burn's sideboard plans but is certainly a real issue game 1.
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