[Primer] Devotion Red

[Yarpus]

I remember testing Mono Red version of my Gruul Bloodrush. I was trying to convience myself for ages that it's at least decent, compared to Ghor-Clan Rampager.
For fucking fuck's sake I just couldn't. This card is horrible.

[Tyrael]

Just to nip this in the bud, Rubblebelt Maaka is horrible.

I wouldn't put it like that but we do have better options, that much is clear.

[Kizzercrate]

So, I've been going over things this weekend, trying to decide exactly what "style" of Devotion I wanna go. Looks like we've got three camps so far:

1) All haste, no Reckoners (Ash Zealot/Shred-Freak)
2) BTE abuse to make our attacks better with Firefist Striker
3) The Midrange plan (Reckoners main, Chandra/at least 1 Hammer main)

I'm leaning towards a split between Haste and Midrange. My list:

[deck]Creatures: 28
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Ash Zealot
4 Rakdos Shred-Freak
4 Goblin Shortcutter
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis

Artifacts: 1
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Spells: 8
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet

Land: 23
21 Mountain
2 Mutavault

Sideboard: 15
4 Burning Earth
2 Pithing Needle
3 Frostburn Weird
2 Act of Treason
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars[/deck]

Sideboard still a work in progress.

Some testing I did this weekend and reasons behind
card choices (read: Shortcutter)

BWR Midrange: I had a few major problems fighting this deck--Reckoner, Warleader's Helix, and Obzedat/Blood Baron. Here, I feel Firefist Striker has two downsides: one obviously being it's a removal magnet, and secondly, it feels really bad as a topdeck since it takes another turn to actually do something. I hit several points in our games where Shortcutter would have just let me walk past a Reckoner/Blood Baron and close out the game.

RDW variants: If I'm playing FNM at my shop, I'm jamming four Shocks here, as there were only two people that weren't on Red. I like Weirds and Mortars out of the board and just setting up for giant Fanatic triggers. Same Shortcutter argument applies here against opposing Reckoners as well if you don't want to play as control-ish as I do in the mirror.

Esper: Game 1 is a chess match, or just praying you hit the nuts and don't have to worry about it. Sideboards in, Pithing Needle saves lives. Being able to shut Jace or
Elspeth up as opposed to burning several cards and/or turns on them is a godsend, as time is definitely not on our side (which I'm sure we know).

I like the 2-of Mutavault. I've had a small sample size so far, but I haven't had any clashing issues yet with double- or triple-red and Mutavault. But geez, I've never not been happy to see a Mutavault.

The one-of Hammer did work when it showed up, but I get this nagging feeling still that it should be a 2-of main or just move all the copies to the board. Obviously still needs more testing.

BTW, I'm still a competitive noob, so please tell me if and where I'm completely off base. I need to learn.

[Link]

Now tell them how you feel about Smelt/Wear/tear, Z.

I personally would never touch the card.

Skullcrack has this other clause where it says "hurts the opponent real bad" so its never dead in your hand. Burning people out is how like 8/10 of our games end right? Skullcrack is burn.

Smelt is "lol" 1-1 answer for their sb tech that they might not even have nor even draw? Smelt doesn't win you the game. It "answers" a card but doesnt progress your game plan and you continue to durdle. Guess who usually wins late game vs. mono red? The not mono red guy paying more expensive shit, thats for sure.

Mono red can't afford to play narrow sb cards like artifact removal or enchantment (even if we had one). Lifegain is annoying to fight through, (and in some cases, pretty impossible), so skullcrack deserves a place when it is a strict upgrade from the burn spells in our maindeck against
noncreature decks, and against decks wheres its their main strategy to counter us and they don't have an abundance of it, it shines well.

we had a disliking of it last season because it was "reactive" as in, you had to leave up mana the turn they were going to cast thragtusk, and then you had left up mana while they dropped a 2-1 pain in the ass on the ground to stall you. And then they just flickered thragtusk and lolud.

Skullcrack this season I think is better because lifegain has become less prevalent and it is a much bigger play to skullcrack someone. A guy wants to race with blood baron? Ok, skullcrack, untap alpha strike.

I guy wants to flash in advent obviously and then suit it up cause "I hear 7/7s are good vs u bro"? Skullcrack, alpha (they should be extra dead because you should've alphad into the advent and they are usually scared to lose their wurm to burn when they have an unflinching in hand).

[Helios]

I'm slowly being shanghai'd into playing Skullcrack, and I don't like it one bit.

[Zooligan]

Except Esper will just D-Sphere them on sight.

So what you're telling me is that Burning Earth hasn't been wrecking Esper decks...

Both times I laid Burning Earth this past Friday against Esper it got D-Sphered. Cost the guy 2 damage, but he totally shut down my 4-drop.

Not saying its wrong, just that if everyone starts playing an Esper lineup like my nemesis, expect it to be underwhelming.

[Zooligan]

Just to nip this in the bud, Rubblebelt Maaka is horrible.

Doesn't have trample like GCR, but what else do we have in mono-red?

[zemanjaski]

I hear burn spells are good. Why do you think you need a giant growth?

Skullcrack got better because now life gain isn't coming online to much later:
- easier to have mana up
- more time to draw one
This helps a lot. Nothing sucked more than drawing Skullcrack after they just played Thragtusk.

[Zooligan]

Just wondering if it's better to force through 3 uncounterable damage for 1 mana when you connect with something vs. having devotion in place to apply 3-7 damage for 4 mana (with bonus 4/2 body).

It may not be. I'm not certain how to evaluate.

[Helios]

The damage isn't uncounterable. Any instant speed removal still kills your creature, so you're also running the risk of 2-for-1'ing yourself.

[DarthStabber]

I probably wouldn't run smelt, I am trying to try racing the whip. Here's the thing: crack stops lifegain once, and does nothing against the fact that it give all their creatures unearth(3)(b). I did play a lot of flames of the bloodhand back in the day, but there was more lifegain in that time (gain 4 life seemed to be a subtheme of first ravnica), and flames was bigger damage. Smelt stops whip completely for just (1). Shattering blow is an interesting choice, an extra mana for an exile is usually a good deal, but the only reanimate effect for artifacts I am aware of is [card]obedat's aid[/card] and I don't think anyone is going to run it when rescue from the underworld is an instant and lets you repeat an etb trigger. If wear/tear is being considered I would run a couple sacred foundries over the scrylands, since
they can still come in untapped and not mess your day up. I had a similar issue trying to run armed/dangerous, where I assume armed would be good enough without dangerous.

[Helios]

How many decks are running relevant artifacts?

How many decks have life-gain?

There's your answer.

[Yarpus]

Erebos, Hammer as relevant artifacts.
Add Detention Sphere as relevant enchantment es numero uno. Unflinching Courage as well.
Lifegain is also relevant.

[Str1fe5]

Is there a particular reason nobody is running Firefist Striker right now? I think my hardest matchup so far has been various midrange decks, particularly those with access to Unflinching Courage. FFS doesn't really fix the Courage problem as much but busting through their first drop to "stop the bleeding" I think is very relevant because it helps setting them up for Fanatic range.

Also I'm liking the Purphoros, God of the Forge as a singleton in main board. It's quite versatile. I suppose that given the choice I'd want a Chandra, Pyromaster if I were going to States today instead of next week, if only to make more space in the board. I've really gotten a lot of good work out of FFS though. Very surprised he's not being run in some of the veterans 75s so far. I agree [card]
Burning Earth[/card] just isn't where we want to be right now. I'll try some Skullcrack in the board and get back.

[Narcasus]

Testing the deck in a Daily even on modo. So far 2-0 in round one against u/w control. Game 1, chandra is a beast. Game 2, pheonix is a beast. both were long grindy games. Game 1 i went through 3 jace, an elspeth, and 3 wraths. As well as 2 kill cards in the last breath and the one where you sac an attacking or blocking creature and denten sphere. I thought i was dead but i drew just as well as he was and the game went long letting a chandra hit the board and win the game. Mogis was huge in taking out the elspeth behind the army of tokens. That was a really fun game of magic. Game two was us drawing way worse cards but i did enough damage early to finish him off while holding a skullcrack to counter any sphinx

[dpaine88]

So I got around to reading the wonderful post by Khaos, great work man.

Just a few comments

1) I think 21 mountains is just fine to cast Reckoner...if you are gonna run 23 land, 1-2 can easily be mutavault. Theres enough upside to justify the rare chance you get a Mutavault instead of Mountain, but you run 21 mountain anyways so the 2 mutavault are more creatures than anything but help you hit Chandra/Fanatic on time.

2) Now that G/W Aggro won the Starcity and it was mostly a creature-based top8, I think we need to STRONGLY Consider FireFist Striker. He also has great synergy with Mutavault.

[Narcasus]

So I got around to reading the wonderful post by Khaos, great work man.

Just a few comments

1) I think 21 mountains is just fine to cast Reckoner...if you are gonna run 23 land, 1-2 can easily be mutavault. Theres enough upside to justify the rare chance you get a Mutavault instead of Mountain, but you run 21 mountain anyways so the 2 mutavault are more creatures than anything but help you hit Chandra/Fanatic on time.

2) Now that G/W Aggro won the Starcity and it was mostly a creature-based top8, I think we need to STRONGLY Consider FireFist Striker. He also has great synergy with Mutavault.

I think he would be good as well, but chandra/hammer have won me multiple game 1s that i would have lost otherwise against control. What would you
take out main board to fit them? do we drop satyr?

[dpaine88]

Well I'm basing this on the fact that there was 0 blue based control in the top8. Looks like we will be facing more aggro/midrange decks and can tune decks towards that and sideboard more for control.

That said, you can just cut shock for 2 other cards like Hammer/Chandra.

[Zooligan]

The damage isn't uncounterable. Any instant speed removal still kills your creature, so you're also running the risk of 2-for-1'ing yourself.

It's uncouterable in the Synchopate sense, but not in the Doom Blade sense, yes. But after you do it once, the next time you attack with mana up, what are they gonna do? Hold their removal hoping to 2-for-1 you? Great! Then if they proactively remove an attacker, bloodrush onto another one. Worked well last year with GCR. Of course Makka doesn't have trample, so there is that to consider.

But still, which situation is better in general for red - bloodrushing +3 or FoM triggers? Both can get hosed. I'm just trying to figure on a
success percentage basis and damage/mana basis, which is better.

[Link]

I dont understand the comparison to maaka and fanatic of mogis at all to be honest

[dpaine88]

One is amazing, one blows?

[Zooligan]

One is amazing, one blows?

Could you explain why?

Yes, getting your bloodrushed Ash Zealot Doom Bladed sucks, but so does getting your Fanatic Syncopated. Like I asked, from a success percentage and damage/mana percentage which is better.

Just saying one is amazing and one blows doesn't really objectively say anything.

No way to tell what amazes you.

Or what blows you for that matter...

[dpaine88]

Well first of alll, with Rubblebelt, at least in comparison to a card like Ghor-Clan it is a lot worse. The body is bad for the curve and todays constructed creatures. You never really want to cast a 3/3 for 4. a 4/4 with trample for 4 isnt bad at all however.

Also, no trample at all. So at best, you 1 for 1 your opponent pretty much and don't push any damage through.

Since the creature part of Rubblebelt is bad, and there isn't trample to push damage though, I don't see any reason why he would be better than a Burn spell in any situation. It has the exact same combat effect and is MUCH more versitile.

Fanatic speaks for himself, play a few games with him and you will see for yourself.

[Link]

One is amazing, one blows?

Could you explain why?

Yes, getting your bloodrushed Ash Zealot Doom Bladed sucks, but so does getting your Fanatic Syncopated. Like I asked, from a success percentage and damage/mana percentage which is better.

Just saying one is amazing and one blows doesn't really objectively say anything.

No way to tell what amazes you.

Or what blows you for that matter...

blood rushed ash zealot getting doom bladed means they spent 1 card to stop 2 of
yours from dealing damage.

Fanatic getting syncopated means they are counterspelling your damage source.... 1 counterspell for 1 spell. Then they are also probably tapped down for you to do other meaningful things

like, I just dont get the comparison at all. "uncounterable" effects are just not neccessary, playing around and sometimes in to counters is what is at play here, not what cards you're using.

Which is why I dont get how you can compare maaka and mogis since their effects are completely different, and fanatic of mogis is by far the stronger card

[DarthStabber]

I dont understand the comparison to maaka and fanatic of mogis at all to be honest

I think people conflate the two because the both technically cost 4. Playing maaka happens, I did it several times in testing, and it being able to be a hill giant is not irrelevant, but for the most part it's an offense only brute strength. Where as fanatic is lava axe ducttaped to a 4/2, and hs no cheap mode (though bringing back lorwyn's evoke for him would make him pretty badass if his cost were 2-3).

[Zooligan]

Oh I do play Mogis. It's... usually good. Sometimes it's just a 4/2 4-drop. But I guess most cards are like that.

My biggest problem matchup is an Esper variant piloted by the top player at my LGS. He runs a shitload of instant speed removal, which keeps devotion low. I'm just looking for an edge in such a matchup that doesn't wreck the overall plan of a haste-based red deck.

[dpaine88]

Gonna need to look at alternate angles of attack.

Chandra and Burning Earth and also Hammer.

You could maindeck 2-3 Chandra and 1-2 Hammer.

[Jack]

A haste - based deck is a good answer to Esper control. The match up is already heavily in your favor. Pyro Red seems even better in this match up, but I didn't think you want to change decks.

[dpaine88]

Oh also Rakos SHred FReak is awesome against Esper. Fast and immune to doom blade

[Link]

I'm with freedom, honestly if esper is your most problematic match-up and you are confident in being able to outplay other opponents at your LGS level, you'd be better off playing pyrored with mutavaults which crushes esper pretty hard. Far and away looks pretty friggin awful vs. elemental tokens. And you have such good pressure after a verdict.

Chandra is pretty house ofc. And phoenix is infinitely better than reckoner.


if you want to stick to this deck, Id consider the original version Khaos showed with the shredfreaks honestly. They stumble on verdict mana early, and shredfreak answer azorius charm pretty well. Fanatic might lose you G1 or it might burn them out if they stumble. And in that list its easy to side out the fanatics for the Chandra+Hammer package for a dedicated anti-control list

ninjas: all day with the clan stream of thought <3

[Zooligan]

Gonna need to look at alternate angles of attack.

Chandra and Burning Earth and also Hammer.

You could maindeck 2-3 Chandra and 1-2 Hammer.

Ran that. 2 Chandra, 2 Hammer, and boarded in 4 Burning Earth. Earth and Hammer get D-Sphered, Chandra eats Hero's Downfall, or everything else gets bounced/destroyed/edicted and Chandra is left unprotected. At least that's what left me stung 0-2 Friday.

My exact list was:

[deck] Hasty Devoted Fanatic[/deck]

I honestly found Hammer and Burning Earth underwhelming. BE got exiled on-sight. Cost the guy a couple points damage, but cost me my 4-drop. Hammer got exiled once, andthe other time I didn't have the mana to sac a land.

Here's the list I'm thinking of running, unless I jump on Zman's PyroSligh:

[deck]Hasty Devoted Fanatic[/deck]

[Helios]

Sometimes that happens in two games. I've had the same thing happen in two games...but winning the other 8/10 means the matchup is heavily in our favor. Don't think a deck is good just because you lose 0-2 to it once. Like Val's experience today; sometimes your opponents curve out and win, and you don't.

[Zooligan]

Sometimes that happens in two games. I've had the same thing happen in two games...but winning the other 8/10 means the matchup is heavily in our favor. Don't think a deck is good just because you lose 0-2 to it once. Like Val's experience today; sometimes your opponents curve out and win, and you don't.

That is true. Hopefully I can make that the case over the next few weeks. I really hate seeing that guy crack 6 packs on Friday and grab $40 in store cred on Saturday every freakin week!

But early in a season post-rotation, when standard is evolving, how do you tell if it's a fluke or if it's the norm?

[Str1fe5]

Here's what I'm running currently:

[deck]
Lands:
1 Mutavault
21 Mountain

Creatures:
4 Firedrinker Satyr
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Ash Zealot
4 Firefist Striker
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Boros Reckoner
4 Fanatic of Mogis
1 Chandra, Pyromaster

Spells:
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
1 Hammer of Purphoros

Sideboard:
1 Hammer of Purphoros
1 Mutavault
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
2 Mizzium Mortars
3 Act of Treason
3 Skullcrack
4 Frostburn Weird
[/deck]

Cutting the extra Mutavault currently to jam 4 Skullcrack in the board for testing purposes, but this is what I'm leaning towards. Could also throw the Purphoros back into the main and go down to either 2 Acts or 2 Skullcracks depending on which ends up being the most helpful vs midrange decks.

Thoughts?

[Link]

you cant play pithing needle in this deck, see my reasoning with Smelt

[Shardoon]

Now tell them how you feel about Smelt/Wear/tear, Z.

BTE+Destructive Revelry ?

[Link]

reverly is better because it does damage, but stretching the mana base just to run really isnt ok

[Helios]

But early in a season post-rotation, when standard is evolving, how do you tell if it's a fluke or if it's the norm?

You find a good group to playtest with. I've got a buddy who has been working on Esper, and since he has played the deck umpteen times, he is a good pilot to test against. You want to find above-average players who are capable of piloting a variety of decks, and then just play game after game.

[DarthStabber]

Chandra, pyromaster is a great card but it's immediate impact is roughly the same as goblin shortcutter, and in devo red any 4 drop should do a metric ton on impact. Turn 4 is the aiming point for victory, and chandra does not contribute toward tht end. Zeman's pyrored variant uses her great effect, and she does great effect in that variant, but devotion red should be/is faster. You are trading some efficacy in the long game for better short game. We're not AIR, but we're theoretically and functionally closer to that than Z's magnum opus. We want to win on t4, but we obviously aren't relying on it like we were a combo deck. I am willing to let 1 drops, striker, and hammer slide due to their otherwise massive impact on the game, but 3+ drops should make a significant impact on the turn they come into play. Chandra doesn't, purphoros only does if his hammer is already in play, and no other 4 drop even comes close
in mono red. Thus our only serious 4 drop is fanatic, i'm not being hyperbolic, all our cards other than striker should be part of a line of play that leads to turn 4 victory. Why turn 4? Supreme verdict hits turn 4, and it is much bigger than non-zero. Keep all this in mind. Even though you are not depending on a t4 win, you do want to keep it in mind, because even if you don't win on t4 you want the game to be within lightning strike range.

[zemanjaski]

Agreed.
Devotion has a realistic turn 4 win draw; with the ability to win through resistance going long. Chandra and PyroRed doesn't do that (I think I have one turn 4 win in ~70 games), it's looking to grind incremental advantage in a 9-10 turn game.

I think you're better off running a single Stormbreath over a single Chandra; it's just another bomb to draw into as the game stalls out.