[Primer] PyroRed

[Helios]

ibejaemes & other new folks: Welcome aboard!!! Glad to have all of the testing results, and to see that you're having success with the deck. I should be coming up with another primer update tomorrow evening.

@People losing to Esper: Stop that. Sometimes you lose because you have a 60 card deck that's randomized, but examine your sb'ing and play first. How often are you making a play and thinking "Eh, maybe this is ok?" or "This might screw me over, but I'll try it."? Are you keeping bad hands? Esper is one of this decks best matchups, so try and figure out what's causing you to struggle with it.

@Mortars v. Blood Baron: It's just unnecessary. You have plenty of outs to it already.

@Yarpus: When you post about every single halfway decent "rogue" card, yes, some of them will be good. Get over it.

[magicdownunder]

Helios, how comfortable are you with casting Assemble the Legions with 22 lands?

I went back down too 22 with my recent list, and it just seems that AtL is a weak play on T7+ esp. when your facing down Dragons.

[Keftenk]

[quote="[url=http://community.ist.utl.pt/viewtopic.p ... 41#p135541]@People losing to Esper: Stop that. Sometimes you lose because you have a 60 card deck that's randomized, but examine your sb'ing and play first. How often are you making a play and thinking "Eh, maybe this is ok?" or "This might screw me over, but I'll try it."? Are you keeping bad hands? Esper is one of this decks best matchups, so try and figure out what's causing you to struggle with it.[/quote]

Maybe I am keeping bad hands /shrug At least Game 1, when I don't know what my opponent is playing.

[Helios]

MDU: I'm casting it on 23, so I don't really know I would be hesitant on 22, but depending on what you're playing against, it can be just fine that late. Against what deck? Big Boros? Naya? They have such a threat density that it probably is a weak play there. Against Mono B, they don't really have the "play this guy, I win" cards (outside of Gary with shits of devotion) so it is much easier to play later.

[Keftenk]

LP just ravaged me with his Jund Midrange

[magicdownunder]

MDU: I'm casting it on 23, so I don't really know I would be hesitant on 22, but depending on what you're playing against, it can be just fine that late. Against what deck? Big Boros? Naya? They have such a threat density that it probably is a weak play there. Against Mono B, they don't really have the "play this guy, I win" cards (outside of Gary with shits of devotion) so it is much easier to play later.

Whoops, I ran Assemble the Legions as a direct counter against Big Boros, Naya and Wood's Junk list (Monoblack was an after thought). With 22 lands now, I figured it wouldn't be worth the space.

Here is my 2nd last video report running this list:

[deck=MDU's Australian Winter ]Lands 22
12x Mountain
04x Sacred Foundry
04x Temple of Triumph
02x Mutavault

Creatures 22
04x Firedrinker Satyr
04x Rakdos Cackler
04x Burning-Tree Emissary
03x Firefist Striker
03x Young Pyromancer
04x Chandra's Phoenix

Planeswalkers 02
02x Chandra, Pyromaster

Enchantments 02
02x Chained to the Rocks

Pew Pew 12
04x Lightning Strike
04x Magma Jet
03x Shock
01x Flames of the Firebrand

Sideboard 15
04x Boros Reckoner
02x Skullcrack
02x Boros Charm
02x Chained to the Rocks
02x Mizzium Mortars
02x Fanatic of Mogis
01x Flames of the Firebrand[/deck]

The event was: Standard Daily Event 6210718 (4-0)

G1: GBW Reanimator
G2: [url=http://www.youtube&#
46;com/watch?v=KqY6_xSn4qE]RDW AiR[/url]
G3: Esper Control
G4: Split for win

Here are the last set of replays running with the list above (it was a long ride)

G1: Big Boros
G2: Esper Control
G3: MonoBlack Devotion
G4: MonoBlue Devotion

The DE was 6210753 score (3-1)

Closing Thoughts on the DeckList
The main idea was to merge Z's Emily Red with Z's PyroWhite too allow for some explosive play on (T2 or T3), allowing us to make up for some of our slower starts (darn citpt lands).

I still strongly believe that T2 BtE
into FFS is one of the best possible plays as a red deck, the weakness of the deck is "lack of haste" which is crippling against AoG.decks, "Lack of vaults" weaken our game against control and makes it harder to trigger FFS and finally "Missing one YP$" these issues were discussed with some of the members on DtR and it lead to the creation of RW Test which vundo eventually took and edited slightly to create his top 32 list.

Would I play this list again? Yes, in fact I'm playing it right now and just hit 4-0 with some new tech to get around some troubling cards and effects (hahaha take that domesticate, hexproof and */5 creatures) as it stands I think I'll be taking my new brew (edited version RW test) to MOCS11.

Anyhow starting from tomorrow I'l be posting videos from the Pyrewild Shaman list, I have 4 sets going 4-0 twice I think? and 3-1 twice - while that is not the list I'm playing now it has some great moments against G/x/x decks .

[Keftenk]

Your SB plans still following whats on the main page MDU?

[Yarpus]

@Yarpus: When you post about every single halfway decent "rogue" card, yes, some of them will be good. Get over it.

Someone has to do this job. Digging out the shitty cards and show them so other can reconsider them based on meta-changes. It also gives me my right to brag here and there for a bit. And I was advocating Pyrewild for really long time already.

[vundo]

@MDU
I'm super excited to see your new tech- that is if you're revealing it

*edit* I'm guessing we are utilizing last breath now?

[Keftenk]

^

[magicdownunder]

@Yarpus: When you post about every single halfway decent "rogue" card, yes, some of them will be good. Get over it.

Someone has to do this job. Digging out the shitty cards and show them so other can reconsider them based on meta-changes. It also gives me my right to brag here and there for a bit. And I was advocating Pyrewild for really long time already.

I love your suggestion mate, sers. if it wasn't for some of your post I wouldn't have taken a 2nd glance at seemingly janky cards which are now winning me games now.

[Yarpus]

What about maindeck/SB plan of having two maindeck Pyrewilds and two sideboard Warleader's Helix? Probably instead of 2 Skullcracks for 2/2 split between Helix and Skulls.
I mean, WH seems good against aggro and it still a card that is fairly usefull against control as high-impact burn.

[Keftenk]

What about replacing the Fanatics with WH? I understand that Fanatic is a 4/2 body, but other then that are you ever getting anymore then 4 from it as a spike? Same MC, just harder cast because of dual color. I suppose there are those times when you get a really awesome spike, I've hit 11 once myself... Hrmmm /shrug

[Valdarith]

After last night's debacle I'm considering just that, Yarpus. Helix is incredible in aggro mirrors and midrange matchups. I feel like the meta online is shifting toward needing to go with a white splash.

[alex182]

I started on the Beta and then went to the current version and was thoroughly confused. So I went back to the Beta.

I suppose I should practice more on the current version.

sry to be off-topic, but I deinstalled mtgo a while ago and now accedently downloaded the beta. how can I switch back to the normal version (as an english-noob)??

[Link]

2 of helix sounds better in sb then 2of firemane, more reliable and flexible

I do think firemane is sweet though, just needs hellraiser goblin >.>

[windstrider]

Hmm, if only there was a way to give our creatures haste without a drawback.

[magicdownunder]

Hmm, if only there was a way to give our creatures haste without a drawback.

On the topic of Hammer of Purphoros, since I can no longer cast Assemble the Legion (sad days) what do you guys think is better against Epser, G/x/x and MonoBlack the third Skull Crack or Hammer of Purphoros both cards are relevant in all three MUs, its a tough call.

On a side note I just came back from a grueling DE against 3x MonoU Devotions and 1x Esper, I somehow manage to go 3-1.

[Purp]

Skullcrack > Hammer

[DocLawless]

In what context?

[Helios]

Skullcrack > Hammer

Skullcrack and Hammer are different cards that serve different purposes. They shouldn't be filling the same slots.

MDU, I think you want at least 3 Skullcrack / 1 Hammer for those matchups. I wouldn't substitute one for the other.

2 of helix sounds better in sb then 2of firemane, more reliable and flexible

The issue is that we don't actually need either of them. Helix costs 4 mana, and 2 extra mana to gain 4 life over Mortars just doesn't cut it. Firemane is a trap.

[Calamity]

Yeah, I desperately want firemane avenger to be good but she just isn't

[Link]

I like helix because you just burn the fuck out of mono U sometimes, which is why having it be flexible (like Flames) is definitely worth it. Lifeswings are big game against the tempo deck.

Hammer gives our dudes haste but doesnt trigger battallion, which is why the baddie goblin deservse hope! Yeah but I think firemane can be broken in the right enviroment, its just such a powerful trigger.


Also we took the plunge today! We chose to be on the draw in the red mirror, it was against Psully's denizen deck to so it was pretty scary (especially after getting run over G1). We mulled a 5 lander to see more early interaction and they scooped t4 after we answered all their plays lol.

Then G3 we were on the draw by default and confident! he scooped after we leashed two cacklers for two denizens and shocked something >_>b

Thanks Z for giving us the strength to not be afraid of the fire

[Zooligan]

Helix costs 4 mana, and 2 extra mana to gain 4 life over Mortars just doesn't cut it.

It also gives you the ability to hit a player. So it's two additional Mortars, or two additional Phoenix-resurrectors. Plus 4 point lifegain.

[DerWille]

G4: MonoBlue Devotion

I love the song in that video. It's so damn creepy I probably "watched" that video 10 times just to listen to the song.
--
I'm a big fan of the Hammer of Purphoros. I prefer two of just because it blows control decks out of the water by itself and I want to find one quickly. I usually try to keep 5 mana open, so I typically use hammer on the 6th land. I never had much luck with Skullcrack. In games I've had it, they never cast [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card]. In games they cast [card]Sphinx's Revelation[/card], I
never have it. I would think hammer suits PyroX's role as the beatdown in that match up.

I like the Pyrewild Shaman idea and [card]Warleader's Helix[/card] looks interesting, but [mana]2RW[/mana] scares me.

[Helios]

It also gives you the ability to hit a player. So it's two additional Mortars, or two additional Phoenix-resurrectors. Plus 4 point lifegain.

Against decks where I'd want Helix, I'd rather have a 2 mana answer. 4 mana for that effect is just too much.

[zemanjaski]

A 2 mana answer is frequently going to do more damage or save more life, just because it enables all you creatures so much faster.

[Lightning_Dolt]

U/W / Esper know enough to DSphere your Hammer... Feels bad man.

[Helios]

They do, but as a 1-of it has more damage potential then a lot of cards. It gives you another "answer this or die" card, like Chandra.

...it's better than Chained to the Rocks in that matchup, at least

[Zooligan]

It also gives you the ability to hit a player. So it's two additional Mortars, or two additional Phoenix-resurrectors. Plus 4 point lifegain.

Against decks where I'd want Helix, I'd rather have a 2 mana answer. 4 mana for that effect is just too much.

Of course, that's why I said "additional". I wouldn't play it in place of mortars, but in addition to it.

Because I know you'd rather have a 4 mana answer than no answer

[Jack]

I would totally play Helix if I had 17 sideboard slots available.

[Helios]

It also gives you the ability to hit a player. So it's two additional Mortars, or two additional Phoenix-resurrectors. Plus 4 point lifegain.

Against decks where I'd want Helix, I'd rather have a 2 mana answer. 4 mana for that effect is just too much.

Of course, that's why I said "additional". I wouldn't play it in place of mortars, but in addition to it.

Because I know you'd rather have a
4 mana answer than no answer

So we use 6 SB slots on Mortars and Helix....right. I agree with freedom that if we really did have 17 slots, sure, why not? I think you're missing the point. In any case where I would want Helix in the SB, additional Mortars would be better. If you're already playing the full 4 Mortars in your SB, why do you need more of the same?

So you're on the draw against Mono U/Mono B, and they play Nightveil Spectre. All of a sudden, Helix feels real bad. You're on turn 4 and you need to pop a guy and play another spell to affect the board. Too bad you're using Helix. These situations are going to crop up way more often than the 4 life being relevant; the red mirror is already excellent, and do you really want to be spending your turn 4 to play a low-impact spell?

That's not to say that the 4 life isn't good against a red deck, or even U / B. Of course it is. The problem
is that you're effectively going to be losing that 4 points of life already because you can't deal with the threat before turn 4 / 5.

Oh yea, and Helix doesn't kill Baron. That too.

[Yarpus]

On the other hand it's playable against control while Mortars is not.
It doesn't kill specific card and costs more.
Goes to the dome and grants huge chunk of lifegain.
I wouldn't really care about Blood Baron. He's played in decks that laugh at your Mortars so it's easier to kill them than baron.
Helix is good in nearly any matchup. Mortars is better against Aggro and Midrange, but sucks donkey ass against control - but you truly need it over Helix only against GW due to T2 Smiter cockblocking your sorry ass.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm going to run the mother fuckin dragon in Fanatic's spot because U/W is a thing still in my area.

[Zooligan]

I'm going to run the mother fuckin dragon in Fanatic's spot because U/W is a thing still in my area.

Then you'll find out you want a little more burn, drop YP for it, and be back to your Big Boros list from last week

[zemanjaski]

Helix is less playable than Skullcrack against control...has the world gone mad in the last day?

[F.I.A]

Helix shouldn't be even considered against control. You want to stop them from gaining life, not gaining life yourself (Except it's Lightning Helix, but it isn't.)

Tried two Pyrewild Shaman, and they have been doing well in those 2-mans session. While I hardly bring him back from the graveyard, the availability of that option tends to make the opponent all sweaty. Supreme Verdict on a board with just Rakdos Cackler? Yes, please.

Against aggro, he is a blocker that most don't want to waste a removal on, so he tends to stay around to as a 7-turns clock.

[Yarpus]

Pyrewild is not the flashiest card. That's why I stressed really hard that you need to play him to appreciate him.
He's all about grinding, not only in terms of gaining repetable CA by recurring him. It also means exactly what FIA wrote: forcing your opponent to do suboptimal plays. Every creature becomes a potential threat and there's shitload of guessing game. When first Pyrewild enters the GY, it gets even harder as opponent will be forced to play around it, preventing slightest bit of damage going through as he's too scared of giving you the value out of card.

To be honest that's the philosophy I've learned when playing Venser and Tibalt. Both of these cards were not neccesairly good because of their value. But they forced opponent to play around them. And by doing that they had to do things they'd never do. You give them more and more room to make an error. You sometimes handle them on silver platter in those
damned if you do, damned if you don't situations. That's why Pyrewild is my kind of bulk rare. Actually kind of difficult to use, but when used properly, he can give you immense value.

Because making your opponent spend doom blade to kill your 4/2 token instead of 2/1 Pyromancer is something.
Because making your opponent trade creatures and spend removal just to keep you away from recurring the badass shammy is something.
Playing cards is not just about playing cards. You need to also use the way how your opponent looks at your cards. You need to give him scapegoats, the "threats" that might be false, and just playing around them decreases clarity of his vision. He stops looking into further rounds, he goes into "stop X from happening" mode.

I feel like I'm actually quite good MTG player because of playing on psychology of my opponent like that. The first thing I taught myself was to shuffle the cards in the most scrubby way. That's why whenever I bluff, people assume my
mistakes and then realize I'm bad at this game. You know how decrimental it was in Control vs Aggro matchup? People were serving themselves ready to spanking by overextending that one additional turn, just because they thought that I don't have this DoJ so I didn't played it.

Again, sorry for bragging. Just wanted you to understand my train of thoughts when I was talking about Pyrewild earlier, and maybe give you some better perspective on this card.
Glad if it helps anyone, sad if I'm too braggy about myself.

I hope it also explains my fetish on Ral Zarek.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'm going to run the mother fuckin dragon in Fanatic's spot because U/W is a thing still in my area.

Then you'll find out you want a little more burn, drop YP for it, and be back to your Big Boros list from last week

They're just there as a meta call for now. I need a card that fets free wins against UW since I seem to be having trouble with them.

If U/W becomes esper, SBD will become Burning Earth.

[zemanjaski]

That's solid reasoning. It's not like Stormbreath is bad in any matchups, just not always optimal. It's randomly good against GR / Big Boros too.