R/b Aggro aka "Dos Rakis"

[Jedi_Knight]

He managed to win even without the Whip. But Crypt Incursion would work very well, I do remember the times it was used against me. I do have PTQ next Saturday, really thinking of running either this list or the tried and true R/w aggro (because the card I was most afraid of there, Drown in Sorrow, hasn't been used against me that often), so I do need to figure things out.

There most certainly will be RDW and Crypt Incursion should help with both that and the Reanimator (which I don't expect to show at PTQ if it doesn't score high in some big tourney by that time). Thanks for the tip.

Rakdos Charm could also work, but it's useful only against Reanimator and possibly MoW.

[magicdownunder]

Just what are peoples thoughts on Read the Bones its digs in quite deep making the heavy land version stronger.

@windstrider: Sever the Bloodline is so much better then Gild though - but I do agree Exile is surely missed from the white variant.

[LaZerBurn]

I like Read The Bones MDU - I suggested it to Pedros and dauntless last night for their lists so clearly I like it quite a lot

[magicdownunder]

I like Read The Bones MDU - I suggested it to Pedros and dauntless last night for their lists so clearly I like it quite a lot

I guess great minds think alike

Current Brew:

[deck=MDU's Rakdos Midrange]Lands 25
6 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 19
4 Spike Jester
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Magma Jet
3 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Lightning Strike
2 Read the Bones

Sideboard 15
3 Doom Blade
3 Devour Flesh
4 Skullcrack
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Dark Betrayal[/deck]

[LaZerBurn]

I like Read The Bones MDU - I suggested it to Pedros and dauntless last night for their lists so clearly I like it quite a lot

I guess great minds think alike

Current Brew:

[deck=MDU's Rakdos Midrange]Lands 25
6 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 19
4 Spike Jester
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Magma Jet
3
Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Lightning Strike
2 Read the Bones

Sideboard 15
3 Doom Blade
3 Devour Flesh
4 Skullcrack
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Dark Betrayal[/deck]

Looks like they do I REALLY like this list - RTB fits in sooo nicely and Devour is an excellent addition dauntless has the Zealots too so once more everything is moving in the same direction

[LaZerBurn]

I notice that there is now enough land to squeeze [card]Rakdos's Return[/card] in too

[magicdownunder]

I went 3-0 with the above list taking out Ux Devotion, Esper Midrange and Gr - I like it so far (since I'm actually hitting lands now.....)

I may run 1x RR over Ash but I need her to help slow down aggro.

[Tyrael]

Played this a little bit tonight on MODO.

[deck]
Creatures (25)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Spike Jester
1 Tymaret, the Murder King
4 Mogis's Marauder

Spells (14)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
1 Ultimate Price
3 Bile Blight
2 Hero's Downfall

Lands (21)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Mountain
10 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
3 Duress
2 Dark Betrayal
4 Madcap Skills
2 Doom Blade
4 Pharika's Cure
[/deck]

Deck is super sweet. I played this today cause I couldn't find my Stormbreath Dragons anywhere... I replaced a MB ult price with Hero's Downfall and I added 3 Zombies and 4 Xathrid Necromancers to the board. This made the aggro matchup manageable for me. I had a very easy time
vs Esper too .

[dauntless268]

I like Read The Bones MDU - I suggested it to Pedros and dauntless last night for their lists so clearly I like it quite a lot

I guess great minds think alike

Current Brew:

[deck=MDU's Rakdos Midrange]Lands 25
6 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

nCreatures 19
4 Spike Jester
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Magma Jet
3 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Lightning Strike
2 Read the Bones

Sideboard 15
3 Doom Blade
3 Devour Flesh
4 Skullcrack
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Dark Betrayal[/deck]

Looks like they do I REALLY like this list - RTB fits in sooo nicely and Devour is an excellent addition dauntless has the Zealots too so once more everything is moving in the same direction

Very interesting list, MDU

Not sure I am convinced of Read the Bones MB, do you have enough
time to play it against Decks such as Aggro or GR Monsters? Ash with 17 Red Sources seems a little greedy... Another option in this land heavy variant would be Herald of Torment, I guess?

I wonder if we want a Whip or two in the SB or even MD. I played 4 Matches with my (similar) list against LaZer's ZemBurn list and got stomped each and every time. Thankfully for this deck Burn is a low %age of the meta. That is until Zem wins the GP with it...

[magicdownunder]

I've talked to Lazer about that, I've actually have perfect record against burn online (we do play rather differently + SB'ing vs burn is very tricky) - not Z list 100% but the one with Dancer and Searing Blood MD one of them is in the top 200 ladder with me.

In regards to Read the Bones its actually quite solid even against midrange since paying two life to dig 2-4 cards deep for 2 threats is very much worth it esp. with the high amounts of terror in the 75.

While for Ash, she is just something I'm testing - she could easily be PY since I just want something to help roadblock Hyper Aggro.

[RaidaTheBlade]

Don't have time for a full writeup at the moment, but just played at the game day in what was my first standard tournament or event in about a month.
Took the rakdos aggro deck from a few pages back, with the cacklers still.

Went 4-0 (8-0 in games), beating a r/w burn, a bant-chantments, a bant-midrange, and a blue-black control/mill.

Feels good to be back in the saddle.


None of the matches were really that legitimate of decks, cause even the burn list wasn't set up quite right, which surprised me considering the pilot was pretty good. But most of the super competitive guys are at scg open atlanta, so ;P


But yeah, snazzy mat and a shot of confidence on my return to tournies.

[goodship01]

Just to let you guys knew that I took part in the Born of the Gods game day (10 man) with MDU's Young Pyro list and came 3-1

Round 1 W/B Control
Game 1
I lost the dice and go second, basically I couldn't kill him fast enough and he dropped down Jace with Elspeth plus a Elixir. That's basically game for me.
Sideboard - -4 Lightning Strike, -3 Shock + 3 Doomblade, + 2 Skullcrack, +2 Lifebane Zombie
Game 2
I played Cackler and Spike Jester as usual. He brought Brimaz. I had to double Magma Jet to remove it, which reveals a doomblade onto the top for me. He brought in another brimaz, which I kindly dreadbore. He plays Archangel of Thune, but I just doomblade that for the win.
Game 3
I got a young pyromancer on line. He plays Jace AoT +1. I played Spike Jester and kill that with a Magma jet. He wraths the board (with 7 life remaining). I played Lifebanze Zombie to look at his hand. He gods it. I played another
Lifebane Zombie. He couldn't handle the pressure and succumbs to it.

Round 2 Mono-B Devotion (without thoughtseize and Desecration Demon but with Blood Baron)
Game 1
I lost the dice and have to go second. But Turn 5 Blood Baron, Turn 6 Blood Baron and I scooped (I didn't have Lifebane Zombie). I couldn't attack him fast enough because he devour flesh my turn 1 cackler and downfall my jester.
Sideboard: +2 lifebane zombie, +4 Skullcrack, +2 Mizzium Mortars, +2 Dark Betrayal, -2 Stormbreath, -4 Lightning Strike, -3 Shock, -1 Cackler
Game 2
I beat him to hell with a board of creatures
Game 3
Sideboard: -3 cacklers, + 2 Lightning Strike, + 1 Shock
Hand with 2 dreadbores, 1 phoneix when he thoughtseized me. He chose Phoneix. I lightning strike him in the face to bring phoenix back. Dreadbores his Nightveil Specter and proceed to kill him with Phoenix.

Round 3 Jund
Game 1
My opponent starts with a Sylvan Caryatid, which he proves is invincible against Aggro. But when I cast my Spike Jester,
he is already showing a face of displeasure. He kindly took hit in the face. And proceeds with a Polukranos. I had double dreadbore on my hand. I used one on it and attacked with the Jester. He then tried to cast another which I also kindly dreadbore and attaack him. I magma jet in his face, scry for a land. He cast a stormbreath Dragon and attacked. I played my land and cast my Stormbreath dragon for the win.
Sideboard: -4 Cackler, +2 Mizzium Mortars, +2 Doomblade
Game 2
He started with Elvish Mystic, which I kindly Magma Jetted. He tried to wall with Sylvan Caryatid but I played Phoenix. He played stormbreath, which I kindly take (I had Mizzium mortars) I overloaded Mizzium Mortars and attacked with my Mutavault. We are both in topdeck mode. He keeps topdecking land while I draw my dreadbores and doomblade. So I remove his threats one-by-one while beating his life total from 12 to zero with a Mutavault and a shock in the face.

Round 4 Mono-blue Devotion
I was paired down for this match as no one got
9 points. I didn't like this as I would've got the playmat if I didn't have to play this round. Anyway. The two games I was controlled by Master of Waves which I couldn't dealt with fast enough (game 1 i don't have answer, game 2 I downfall one and he plays another). Game 2 I turned my deck into Mid-range which should've been stayed aggro (by removing all my cacklers and jesters).

[magicdownunder]

Good results guys, @goodship01: Boarding out the Jester and Cackler was correct, you need to be the control player in this MU.

Lets keep refining this list (hopefully it will be done before MOCS1 start this month....).

[RaidaTheBlade]

If I had to make changes based on how stuff played for me today (again not the most legit of decks, but still got to see how the deck ran vs a variety of styles), I would keep the list from before, the non-yp$ version, and definitely drop the cacklers.

As much as I love me the cacklers, they just didn't do enough. I was plenty fast without them, and whenever I top decked them late, it just sucked.

The deck I ran today did have a few differences from MDU's list, so here it is for reference:
[deck]Rakdos Aggro[/deck]
The manabase is slightly greedier, as I cut a guildgate for a third mutavault, which ended up being quite handy today. I am also only running 1 hero's downfall and no lifebane zombies because I didn't manage to trade for them before the tourney ;P
Oh, and the chandra is because I wanted to test having her as a one-of. I actually liked it a lot, and she did really good work.

The changes I'd like to make to it are:
[deck]Rakdos Aggro[/deck]

It's straining the manabase a bit to run
both phoenixes and the zombies, and to then have 3 mutavaults, but I'm greedy and the list I ran today had a similarly greedy manabase and still managed to hit colors and such fairly consistently. I had to be careful on my sequencing on the land drops an okay bit, but it worked out pretty dang well.

I want both lifebane zombie and flame-wreathed phoenix because they are both so powerful vs different decks. Say what you will about the phoenix, but it hurt my opponents bad, and rarely did they feel happy with a choice on it.

I'd like to keep a one-of chandra, but alas it doesn't quite fit.


But yeah, that's my thoughts on a few changes. I like this style better then the young pyromancer, cause it feels like it has more punch, which is pretty important right now, imo.

[magicdownunder]

Got another 3-0 with my above list beating Bx Devotion, Gr Monster and Rw Burn (Z's list) in the finals (I should note I beat burn 2-0 despite having Warleader Helix pointed at my face three times during G1).

Not really feeling the Ash, I want to run a sweeper but it goes against my "everything is relevant rule" I wish Earthquake was in standard... might run 1x Flames of the Firebrand or 1x Chandra, Pyromaster- 3x Devour Flesh also seems like a bit much, but IMOPEN2 seems to be playing in my timezone during my break-time so I'll keep them

@RaidaTheBlade:

You should note that the builds Achilles' heel is the manabase (most of your wins/loses will come down to how you draw you lands which is why I went up to 25) the bulk of your
threats requires double manasymbols thus running 3x vaults heck even 2x vaults isn't the best idea (yes, I know they're expensive so you want to run them, I have 8 vaults IRL and 4 online I brought them when they were under $5) I actually think Tyrael's manabase is the best of the lot.

You also decided to keep Vexing Phoenix (Flame-Wreathed Phoenix) which I think is a great idea for your metagame (if its still G heavy) I won't however recommend them for GP or Modo since Bx and UWx list are all over the place.

@Ash Zealot:

Why do you hate my manabase so? Going to dump you for Young Pyromancer because he is a Red Bro.

[Deht]

Played a bunch today... Went OK --- really struggled with mulligans and draws

The good...

Esper Humans - 2-0 - Good games, mull'd both games but got there. BBoV & Obze are a pain but I was able to get there. Recurring phoenix was boss here and Lifebane exiled Barons and Ghost Councils left and right.

BUG Control - 2-0 I like Ashiok, but nothing exists right now that that will help him function or make him a valid threat. Sure, its christmas when you snag that Blood Baron, SBD, or Obzedat, but he just isn't all that scary.

Dimir Control - 2-0 - See above RE Ashiok. Dominated both games

RW Auras - 2-0 - Just gonna be honest here but if you don't have hexproof this style of build crumbles to removal. Gods willing and Brave the Elements are cool and all but you're eventually going to be tapped out sooner or later and B/R runs a LOT of removal. Guy said that he had beat a bunch of mono black and GR Monsters
decks but kept losing to UW Control. Kinda bizarre.

The bad...

Mono Black Splash White - 1-2 G1 I mulled to 5 and curved out like crazy, won. G2 was probably the most fun I've ever had playing magic and I lost the game - stabilized and eliminated a blood baron, exiled a Obzedat, two more blood barons joined the party and we both were at 1 for 2 turns, lost. Crazy match. G3 No answers to BBoV

UW Control - 1-2 - Opponent played really tight and knew his deck inside and out. Almost had G1 but I ran out of gas and drew only land, he was within burn range for 4 turns and I only saw lands. G2 was a great curve out for me. G3, Blind Obedience is good against this strategy

UWR Control - 1-2 - My deck hated me this game, G1 Mull to 5, 2 lands (one scry land, one shock) magma jet x2, Spike Jester, only saw a Phoenix. It was completely bizarre. G2 was a blow out. G3 ran out of gas and Blind Obedience is good.

The ugly...

Rakdos Aggro - 0-2 - Mulligan'd to 6 both games. G1 just couldn't finish him
off, ran outta gas. G2 nut draw on his part.

GW Aggro - 0-2 - Both games my opponent said that he had a nut draw and it showed. Steam rolled completely by him.

[dauntless268]

@MDU: OK, if both LaZer and you say RTB is good, I'm going to take your word for it. I'm currently in love with Zem's Burn List, but if I were to play Rakdos today, I would give up on Mutavaults completely. Maybe something like this:

[deck]Dauntless Rakdos Midrange[/deck]

The deck builds around interaction between Whip and SBD / LBZ. Only 2 Phoenix may be bad vs. control, of course you can play 3/3 split
Dreadbore / HDF as well for 1 Extra Phoenix. Anger should help a lot vs. Aggro.

[magicdownunder]

if your running whip your not scared of aggro, so I'll recommend cutting the Ash (they're for the aggro MU) for 2x Phoenix - I don't really have any love Ultimate Price since its dead vs the creatures we care about in Ux Devotion and Esper midrange and its worthless against control. I'll say run 1x Chandra, Pyromancer and up the Dreadbore count.

Can you explain the Anger of God? its fairly lackluster these days esp without shock, beside that the concept is good - I prefer whip in BW Midrange or Junk though.

[dauntless268]

Good suggestion re: Phoenix vs Ash, thanks

On UP, there's this little card called Master of Waves... of course it's dead vs. control, but so was Chained... That being said, we don't have Mutavault here anymore, so it may be an issue...

I like Anger for viability vs Aggro, Ux Devo (where I prefer to SB out everything that can be domesticated), Esper Mid and the odd Hexproof deck. Post SB, the deck has enough Control Cards in Chandra, RTB, Whip, 2 Exava and 4 SBD to consider that option, I think. An alternative could be Searing Blood, which allows us to race effectively against these decks...

[Tyrael]

@ Raida, I understand the reasoning for the 3 vaults but I'd cut AT LEAST one of them for an extra basic land

Also, you're the first person I see reacting positively to FWP, could you explain a bit more as to why it was so good for you?

[poppa_f]

MDU- how comes you're not running thoughtseize at all in your 75? (I get that it doesn't mesh so well with the overall strategy, but it's such a strong card in it's own right, probably the best card in standard right now)

[Guttler]

@Tyrael

It's been said before that FWP is good vs G/R. Since they generally have trouble blocking a flyer and it's either a 3/3 that just returns when they try to Mortars it or it's a 5/5 that outclasses both Mortars and SBD.

Not a bad card vs Mono Blue either, since they have no way to outclass it in the air and even if they pay tribute it can gum up their aggro plan.

The card doesn't strike me and horrible vs B/x and UW/x strategies either. I read a quote somewhere that goes like this: "the last fatty to resolve is the one that kills you." I don't see them paying the Tribute on FWP as that bad of a thing, because it means that they must have of very quickly find the removal spell, lots of the other common answers like Jace +1 or chumps from Elspeth, Mutavualt, or Pack Rat are rendered irrelevant which requires them to have a kill spell.

Now, there is a pretty broad stroke of viable answers to
FWP, but then that's an answer they are forced to spend on a 5/5 flyer, when you also have cards like Exava and SBD in your deck also.

[magicdownunder]

@poppa_f :

I posted about TS a few times before, and I also linked a huge article explain about why RB and TS are not good for each other (though I can't for the life of me find it again), basically we want to be very aggressive so we don't really have the time to play 1-for-1 spells which don't effect the tempo of the game. TS is better of list which are running "vital creatures" or better CA though.

[Tyrael]

[deck= Valdarith's Rakdos Seer v 1.1]
Creatures (27)
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Pain Seer
4 Spike Jester
4 Thrill-Kill Assassin
4 Mogis's Marauder
3 Lifebane Zombie

Spells (11)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall

Lands (22)
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Mountain
8 Swamp
2 Rakdos Guildgate
1 Mutavault

Sideboard (15)
4 Duress
3 Dark Betrayal
2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 Doom Blade
2 Devour Flesh
1 Lifebane Zombie[/deck]

MDU, is this workable as a 'list that is running vital creatures' according to you? If not, could you help me fix it for my next FNM? I can't seem to find my dragons anywhere which is limiting my options atm .

[magicdownunder]

I'll rate Pain Seer and Pack Rats as "vital creatures" may I ask why aren't any Torments in your list?

3cc for a 3/3 flyer which can pump one of your creatures seems pretty good...

[magicdownunder]

[deck=MDU's Rakdos Midrange]Lands 25
6 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

Creatures 19
4 Spike Jester
3 Ash Zealot
4 Chandra's Phoenix
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 16
4 Magma Jet
3 Dreadbore
3 Hero's Downfall
4 Lightning Strike
2 Read the Bones

Sideboard 15
3 Doom Blade
3 Devour Flesh
4 Skullcrack
2 Lifebane Zombie
3 Dark Betrayal[/deck]

Standard Elimination Report (Event 6813060)
Standard Elimination R1 Rakdos Midrange vs Ux Devotion Event 6813060
Standard Elimination R2 Rakdos
Midrange vs Esper Midrange Event 6813060
Standard Elimination R3 Rakdos Midrange vs Gr Monster Event 6813060

I'll be making some changes to the list soon.

[Tyrael]

@ MDU Lack of room, mainly

I wouldn't know what to cut

I assume you'd take out the Assassin for Pack Rat, correct? What numbers tweak would you suggest? Here's another brew:

[deck] Rakdos Seer v 1.2[/deck]

y/n?

[magicdownunder]

I like it

[Zooligan]

I like Read The Bones MDU - I suggested it to Pedros and dauntless last night for their lists so clearly I like it quite a lot

I guess great minds think alike

And yours must also..

[Deht]

I'm not liking the midrange list as much as the aggro list --- I feel as though it is a lot softer against aggro and softer against control. Midrange matchups (Esper Mid, Mono Black, GR) would be better, but lacking the turn two 5 damage to the face against control is a big loss, all my opinion of course so feel free to ignore

[magicdownunder]

I'm not liking the midrange list as much as the aggro list --- I feel as though it is a lot softer against aggro and softer against control. Midrange matchups (Esper Mid, Mono Black, GR) would be better, but lacking the turn two 5 damage to the face against control is a big loss, all my opinion of course so feel free to ignore

That actually a really accurate assessment of what happen, the more heavy version is weaker vs aggro (lack of shock) and Control (lack of 1-drop) but compensates for that weakness by improving the builds main issues aka the land drops.... (extra draw, more scry more duel color lands). On those games where the mana run smooths the 23 lands or 24
lands is clearly better.

IDK making [mana]RR[/mana] and [mana]BB[/mana] work is really hard.... GW did it with 23 lands and 0 vaults (with less color fixing) if we just copy that manabase we can squeeze the Shocks and 1-Drops back.

[magicdownunder]

Going by the top200 players GW list here are the ideal manabases:

23 lands

---

Lands 23:
8 Plains
7 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Plenty

For us that would be:

Lands 23:
8 Mountain
7 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice

24 Lands

---

Lands 24:
8 Plains
7 Forest
4 Temple Garden
4 Temple of Plenty
1 Selesnya Guildgate

for us that would be:

Lands 24:
8 Mountain
7 Swamp
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
1 Rakdos Guildgate

Keep in mind the GW are running 8x 1-Drops so they drastically need to lower the citp count, if we're ONLY running Rakdos Cackler as our 1-drop we can get by with 10 citp lands without really feeling the issues though I think Firedrinker Satyr is the better 1-Drop in this meta game (since it can at least kill the */3-4).

[RaidaTheBlade]

Was derping around on mtggoldfish, and found a rakdos aggro list that apparently went 5-1 in a standard premier.

[deck]
Creatures 24
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Spike Jester
3 Spiteful Returned
4 Lifebane Zombie
2 Herald of Torment
1 Exava Rakdos Blood Witch
3 Desecration Demon
3 Stormbreath Dragon

Spells 11
3 Mizzium Mortars
3 Thoughtseize
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Ultimate Price
1 Dreadbore

Land 25
8 Swamp
6 Mountain
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
3 Mutavault

Sideboard 15
3 Doom Blade
3 Rakdos's Return
3 Dark Betrayal
1 Bile Blight
1 Desecration Demon
1 Erebos God of the Dead
1 Chandra Pyromaster
1 Thoughtseize
1 Whip of Erebos
[/deck]

I will say that I think this deck is a bit sloppy overall, but has a few interesting things in it.

First off is spiteful returned, a card which I actually kinda like. It's not impressive in terms of p/t by any means, but it's an
amusing way of hitting for a last few points of damage.

It also has both rr and bb, but not as much as we're trying to run, as the only rr is stormbreath dragon.
As a result, while I'd love to use this as an argument for being able to fit several vaults in, it's just not as applicable as I'd like.


Overall, this list says to me that if it can get a 5-1 in a daily, think of what the lists we're working on can do considering how much more refined they are. Especially in the sideboard e.e



Also, re mdu about the manabase;
I really do think vault is important. I know it can cause awkwardness on occasion, but I really really think that having at least 2 is needed. We are on a much more an aggro control list then other builds, and mutavault helps with the control part. It also helps against fieldwipes which are popular again with u/w's rise

Based off those manabases you pulled from g/w and that thinking, I'd say that my 24 land in a deck with 1 drops would be:
6 Mountain
6 Swamp
4
Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice
2 Rakdos Guildgate
2 Mutavault

[magicdownunder]

myyamagat, the guy who ran that list is also an amazing player (he is seated 18th in the poty race - if this helps with perspective I'm only rank 50) which can make almost everything work - he really does play everything

He is also quite good at feeling out the meta which is why his board looks like a mess - I'm not sure its really fair to compare brews since he is running B splash r while we're going knee deep in RB, I do agree on Vaults being powerful (esp. with RR) but is it worth stabbing ourselves over? Maybe I really want it too work but i think we need 25 for 2x vaults or 24 for 1x vaults - how much do we value Shock and the 1-drop?

These are all good question, and I'll love to get an debate running about vaults since my MOCS1 Finals in on the Mar 15 (derp) which isn't good since I barely have time to grind with MOCS3
Finals on Mar 8 (Sealed, which I'm horrible at so I'm playing blind) and a major workshop project to complete by the 11th IRL. If you guys can come to agreement before them that would be great .

[RaidaTheBlade]

Well again, I only have a tiny bit of testing (about a dozen matches with the deck), but I was running 1-drops and shocks in a 24 land deck with 3 vaults and the amount of times I had mana issues were almost nill.

The magma jets and the scry lands smooth things wonderfully, and I was never stuck on colors or anything. Occasionally I had to play a cipt land when I didn't want to, but that was it. It ran remarkably smooth.

And I think that's where the difference vs that g/w manabase is. We are running 4x magma jet which helps smooth things a lot. If we change it to kinda what I'd posted, then the slight increase in times of color screw (which is almost none since it's going from 17 red source and 16 black, to 16 and 16) is more then offset by the fact that we have magma jet where they didn't.

[RaidaTheBlade]

This is what I'm currently looking at for a good baseline deck that's fairly resistant to most metagames.

[deck]Rakdos Aggro[/deck]

Only thing I'm really doing different here is chandra. I know mdu and others dropped her because we are running more terrors, less burn, less creatures, but I still REALLY like her here.

We still have enough creatures and burn to make her more than relevant, and she's still doing just as well for me as she used to.


nIf I wanted to drop the cacklers, then the list I'd run is:
[deck]Rakdos Midrange[/deck]

I like the second chandra, cause is acts as a source of card advantage. It's kinda my alternative to read the bones. Read the bones is better for card advantage, but I like chnadra's flexibility a lot still.

The one-of mogis in the side is an additional thing to bring in vs control. Could just as well be a rakdos's return. It just fills a hole and helps to strengthen the matchup most weakened by removing the cacklers.



Between the
two versions, I will say I think I like the cackler list the most still. It sideboards smoother and exava does help make up for some of the weaknesses of cackler. It's also more refined, imo.
That said, it wouldn't take much refinement or work before I'd prefer the no cackler version, both are really powerful imo.

[poppa_f]

The elephant (or Phoenix in the room) is that the only card really holding us back on fixing is the Phoenix (and to a lesser extent SBD).

Herald of torment is actually a very similar card in what it brings to the table (evasive flyer with durability and tempo). If we swap 4 Herald for 4 Phoenix then suddenly the mana base looks a lot more solid. Exava is a good proxy for SBD.

On the subject of 1 drops vs midrange, one option could be to go fully aggro and play Cackler AND tormented hero. To get round the Caryatid problem, we bring Pyrewild shaman back in to the fold (brings a bit more CA in to compensate for loss of Chandra). As a bonus there is some small synergy with Tormented Hero (heroic) and Exava (first strike).

This list actually ends up looking a lot like Z's original Pyrowhite list, except we are B/r rather than R/w (NB- B/r "deck" here is just a quick mock-up to illustrate the comparison):
[
spoiler="R/w vs B/r comparison"]4 Ash Zealot -> 4 Spike Jester
4 Chandra's Phoenix -> 4 Herald of Torment
4 Firedrinker Satyr -> 4 Tormented Hero
4 Rakdos Cackler -> ""
4 Young Pyromancer -> 4 Pyrewild shaman
3 Chandra, Pyromaster -> 2 Read the Bones
2 Chained to the Rocks -> 2 Dreadbore
4 Lightning Strike -> ""
4 Magma Jet -> 2 Magma Jet / 2 Hero's Downfall
4 Shock -> 2 Dreadbore / 2 Thoughtseize
11 Mountain -> 11 Swamp
4 Mutavault -> ""
4 Sacred Foundry -> 4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Triumph -> 4 Temple of Malice[/spoiler]

Rough game plan against the common decks:
G/R: sideboard in 4 LBZ and lots of removal. Tempo them to death with hand disruption + removal + hasty creatures
MBC: sideboard in thoughtseize/duress. Go fully aggro and use the hand disruption to strip any sweepers from their hand
U/w: sideboard in thoughtseize/duress. Go fully aggro and use the hand disruption to strip
any sweepers from their hand
Aggro: sideboard in 2 whips and all your removal. The lifegain from the whip should get you there (flames of the firebrand could be crucial here for stabilizing)

[poppa_f]

First draft of what the deck could look like:

deck

---

[deck]21 Creatures
4 Rakdos Cackler
4 Tormented Hero
4 Spike Jester
4 Herald of Torment
2 Pyrewild shaman
3 Exava, Rakdos Blood Witch

15 Spells
2 Read the Bones
2 Dreadbore
4 Lightning Strike
2 Magma Jet
2 Hero's Downfall
1 Ultimate Price
2 Mizzium Mortars

24 Lands
10 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Mutavault
1 Rakdos Guildgate
4 Blood Crypt
4 Temple of Malice

Sideboard
2 Whip of Erebos
4 Thoughtseize
2 Mizzium Mortars
4 Lifebane Zombie
3 Doom Blade
[/deck]

[RaidaTheBlade]

I experimented with herald of torment earlier on in the season, and while he did good work, I was never as impressed as I was with the phoenix.

Against any removal heavy deck, phoenix is one of our best creatures and I can't tell you how many victories I've had that are solely due to that card.

Also, if you drop the phoenix you lose one of the big reasons to run a lot of the burn spells, and you have to start looking at the monoblack aggro list as just being better...

Those are my two cents anyway o.o



In other thoughts, I forgot to ask this earlier MDU, but I meant to ask aout the devour flesh in the sideboard over mortars. I kinda see why you switched, but I'm curious to hear your full explanation.

Cause in my mind what it does is add hexproof creatures and obzedat to the list of things it can kill, while weakening it to anything else and making it less powerful vs creature decks like white weenie,
where hitting brimaz with mortars can be big, while they usually have fodder for the devouring

[windstrider]

The additions of Spiteful Returned and Herald of Torment are interesting choices. They both make the Cacklers and Spike Jesters into very legitimate threats in the later stages of the game. For 6 mana you can smack someone for 6 points (4/2 haste + 2 life loss on attack) of life with a Spike Jester or 5 mana for 5 points with a Cackler. Cackler + Bestowed Spiteful + Exava is 9 points of hasty damage.

That's quite a spicy meatball.

I don't like the DDs in that list, though.