[Primer] Boros Burn

[zemanjaski]

Good value for good decklist Z, thanks if it was in response to my pm

Have grinders on friday while waiting for GP, might play in some standard events to get more byes. Also good having backup deck if I have to drop from main event as I suck in limited.

Always there to help my friend

[zemanjaski]

I find dredge to range from "That was easy" to "almost a bye" to be honest.

I will argue that you havn't: A) played this matchup recently B) Played this match a lot C) Played against a competent pilot. The deck is tough, and with the rise of re animator these will become more popular. There are people suggesting playing 4 MD copies of whip.

A) I ahave
B) I have
C) Played it mutiple times in win and in or Top 8 matches for events I have won

Its a bye.

[zemanjaski]

I've never been a fan of land in the SB, and since we no longer have five drops, I think it's superfluous.

BOOOOOO. Mutavault was the best card in the SB of that iteration.

Its less necessary now since I am back on 1 drops vs. control decks, so it is much less necessary to hit 4 land ASAP.

[zemanjaski]

Updated 75:

[deck]Boros Burn as at 7 May 2014[/deck]
Creatures
4 Chandra's Phoenix
4 Young Pyromancer

Enchantments
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks

Instants
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Strike
4 Magma Jet
2 Searing Blood
4 Shock
4 Skullcrack
4 Warleader's Helix

Lands
2 Mana Confluence
3 Mutavault
9 Mountain
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Temple of Silence
4 Temple of Triumph

Sideboard
1 Banishing Light
2 Chained to the Rocks
2 Chandra, Pyromaster
4
Firedrinker Satyr
2 Harness by Force
4 Mizzium Mortars
[/deck]

This is a list for paper am I correct? Also what matchup do we board in harness? The only one that I can think of are the control decks for that last punch of damage for the game. Seems dicey against demons if they have mutavault or any other dude. Those two are the only decks that I can see boarding it in for but I am still not sure about how the cards works against the current meta.

Harness is for MBC and Monsters.

[Purp]

How are you siding for mono black? Does it change if it is mono black splashing green? What about junk? Posting lists with no explanations or insight into your testing is as equally helpful to someone preparing for a big event(myself) as it is you not posting at all. Especially when you propose a card that will most of the times be an Act of Treason without a 24th land.

While I think dredge is def not unwinnable, I was mainly talking about the new iterations of reanimator.

[zemanjaski]

I'll be certain to not post then.

[Lightning_Dolt]

@ brainsick Don't know what to tell you. You have the tools you need. Play carefully and hope it works out. I'll try to write some notes the next time I play against it.

I disregarded strength from the fallen because it's pretty bad and in my opinion, the definition of win more. I don't think good builds will run it.

[BiddingMaster]

[deck]creatures
4 chandra's phoenix
4 yound pyromancer

burn spells
4 warleader's helix
4 skullcrack
4 shock
2 flames of the firebrand
4 boros charm
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet

enchantments
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks

lands
2 mana confluence
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
1 temple of malice
1 temple of silence
3 mutavault
8 mountain

sideboard
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks
2 mizzium mortars
3 assemble the legion
2 chandra, pyromaster
1 mutavault
4 toil///trouble
[/deck]

This is the decklist I piloted at the star city games invitation qualifier to a top 8 finish last weekend and crapped out of game one because of a misplay. I was thinking of playing some number of eidolon of the great revel in place of some number of shocks or another spell. Could we play like a more sligh burn deck? Im going to test it out over the next couple of days to see how I like
it. Eidolon is kind of like satyr firedancer in that it allows us to burn thier face when they play a spell and allows us to remove their board to attack. I feel like the 2 power would help out in the damage department the way that the satyr cant. My reasoning for it is no matter what matchup we play against like 60% of their spells are three converted mana cost anyway. So they take damage to commit to the board or a removal spell and we throw burn spells at what they are playing or their face and swing in. I know this puts us in a very awkward position with our life total but since it is a resource anyway why not use every advantage we have. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I know mdu's opinion of eidolon but I think it deserves at least a discussion as and inclusion in our archetype.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'll be certain to not post then.

I appreciated it.

[Lightning_Dolt]

[deck]creatures
4 chandra's phoenix
4 yound pyromancer

burn spells
4 warleader's helix
4 skullcrack
4 shock
2 flames of the firebrand
4 boros charm
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet

enchantments
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks

lands
2 mana confluence
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
1 temple of malice
1 temple of silence
3 mutavault
8 mountain

sideboard
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks
2 mizzium mortars
3 assemble the legion
2 chandra, pyromaster
1 mutavault
4 toil///trouble
[/deck]

This is the decklist I piloted at the star city games invitation qualifier to a top 8 finish last weekend and crapped out of game one because of a misplay. I was thinking of playing some number of eidolon of the great revel
in place of some number of shocks or another spell. Could we play like a more sligh burn deck? Im going to test it out over the next couple of days to see how I like it. Eidolon is kind of like satyr firedancer in that it allows us to burn thier face when they play a spell and allows us to remove their board to attack. I feel like the 2 power would help out in the damage department the way that the satyr cant. My reasoning for it is no matter what matchup we play against like 60% of their spells are three converted mana cost anyway. So they take damage to commit to the board or a removal spell and we throw burn spells at what they are playing or their face and swing in. I know this puts us in a very awkward position with our life total but since it is a resource anyway why not use every advantage we have. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I know mdu's opinion of eidolon but I think it deserves at least a discussion as and inclusion in our archetype.

Eidolon makes you bad match ups worse
and your good match ups better. I don't think it's what you want to be doing in this deck.

[BiddingMaster]

I'll be certain to not post then.

We are not all assholes, we promise. Why did you ask a dumn question purp when z clearly answered it literally the post before yours.

[BiddingMaster]

[deck]creatures
4 chandra's phoenix
4 yound pyromancer

burn spells
4 warleader's helix
4 skullcrack
4 shock
2 flames of the firebrand
4 boros charm
4 lightning strike
4 magma jet

enchantments
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks

lands
2 mana confluence
4 sacred foundry
4 temple of triumph
1 temple of malice
1 temple of silence
3 mutavault
8 mountain

sideboard
1 banishing light
2 chained to the rocks
2 mizzium mortars
3 assemble the legion
2 chandra, pyromaster
1 mutavault
4 toil///trouble
[/deck]

This is the decklist I piloted at the star city games
invitation qualifier to a top 8 finish last weekend and crapped out of game one because of a misplay. I was thinking of playing some number of eidolon of the great revel in place of some number of shocks or another spell. Could we play like a more sligh burn deck? Im going to test it out over the next couple of days to see how I like it. Eidolon is kind of like satyr firedancer in that it allows us to burn thier face when they play a spell and allows us to remove their board to attack. I feel like the 2 power would help out in the damage department the way that the satyr cant. My reasoning for it is no matter what matchup we play against like 60% of their spells are three converted mana cost anyway. So they take damage to commit to the board or a removal spell and we throw burn spells at what they are playing or their face and swing in. I know this puts us in a very awkward position with our life total but since it is a resource anyway why not use every advantage we have. Any thoughts would be appreciated. I
know mdu's opinion of eidolon but I think it deserves at least a discussion as and inclusion in our archetype.

Eidolon makes you bad match ups worse and your good match ups better. I don't think it's what you want to be doing in this deck.

What matchups become worse? Against mono blue we just eat their critters then bash, they repopulate lowing life total then we rinse repeat. Its the same with any creature deck. I think monsters is the only matchup where it becomes bad. Against junk I win all of my games with multiple phoenixes and thats kind of what eidolon does. I may just have horrible luck but I seem to loose alot when I dont have yp or phoenix and I dont want to mulligan every hand where I dont have one of them. Against mono black they really dont want to remove it but they may have to to make way for yps. One of the main reasons I wanted eidolon is vs the straight UW match up. It is a different animal from esper control. It plays differently and has more
tools to beat us in the main let alond in the sideboard. Every time I see my opponent play elixir and then last breath to gain them some life its usually over for me.

[magicdownunder]

This thread is quite amusing, I love the hivemind like process most of you guys are on.

I honestly believe if you like the 4th vaults you should run the 4th vaults, having 4 mana open for Skullcrack is still important against life-gain.deck (Control, Mirror and Bx) just because one of us suggest something doesn't mean we're all on the same plan (like flames, threaten, BE, T/T) just do what works for you

I'll hopefully be able too play and film again soon, but when I do I'll be approaching my 75 with a "next level" style (much like what I suggested to Purp and what J_S is doing) rather then the all-in-approach.

[BiddingMaster]

I ran 24 lands in my mainboard when I piloted the deck for the first time at a 1k. the only times I was mana flooded were the times if i had 23 lands it would have been the difference between having 9 lands on the battlefield opposed to 8. I kinda flip flop between wanting the 24th or the 23rd. I do like being able to sequence a burn spell and a phoenix on the same turn. Again alot of times I think we get flooded or screwed due to varience and not the number of lands we play. As mdu says, whatever works for you, do it. Obviously there is no right way to build the deck since alot of people have the same archetype but different 75's and they all do well.

[LaZerBurn]

I'll be certain to not post then.

I appreciated it.

Me too

[magicdownunder]

Thoughts on Reprisal and Spite of Mogis vs 3rd or 4th MM as a way of dealing with larger creatures

[LaZerBurn]

I like Reprisal a lot - it's an Instant and power 4 gives it a lot of targets. I'm not so keen on Spite Of Mogis - I don't generally like Sorcery speed removal and it's conditional (though this isn't that likely to be an issue very often in this deck in the long game hitting 6 T4 for Demon seems a bit optimistic) but it's more flexible than Reprisal and is only 1 mana with a scry so it does have an upside.

I could see Reprisal as a one, maybe even a 2 of depending on how the meta develops. This would possibly allow us to reduce our reliance on enchantment based removal which I like.

[LaZerBurn]

Also, I think that the way the meta is changing we should move back to a more burn-oriented approach. With Mono Black being represented by BG Devotion and BG Dredge gaining popularity, our enchantment-based removal is at its weakest. It is becoming increasingly difficult to adopt the control plan against decks when decklists are being built to be resilient against control. I think our Chains and O-rings serve us best as answers that buy us enough time to end the game as opposed to permanent answers we can use to grind out our opponent on the back of YP.

Have you considered dropping YP altogether for Ash? I'm going to test this once JiN hits MTGO and I can pick up my Banishing Light's (and possibly Mana Confluence's)

[GoblinWarchief]

I'll be certain to not post then.

I think everyone here wants you to post and appreciate your help since you are the most competent player among us and your advices are invaluable. But yes, posting a list without any explanation is not very helpful ; I like to see what you would play right now, but i would be very happy if you could explain the changes occurred since your last iteration of the deck. But i suppose we can wait next CFB article/video for detailed explanations.

[JohnnyfnB]

@magicdownunder Reprisal all the way. I run 2 in my sb. SoM is janky, yes it can hit creatures with power 3 or less, but they aren't our problem. I'd rather have a card that can get rid of every 4 power + creature (except BBV and SBD) for 1W instant mana and can't regenerate.

[Jasper]

I've found Spite of Mogis to be very useful in my limited testing. When you're playing 20+ spells, it's damage really starts to grow. I mainly like it for the fact that it scales into the long game if I need it to, and early on, it's just a 1 mana removal that lets me scry 1 at the same time. I feel like the card hasn't gotten as much credit as it deserves.

[Purp]

I don't think any of my questions were dumb. I want to know his testing results.

THe mono Black matchup and the mono black/green matchup are much different. Previously we were -4 shock -4 boros charm against mono black. Why is Harness by Force (essentially Act of Treason[which we had last season]) all of a sudden good vs monsters/mbc? Monsters was -4 Skullcrack -4 Boros Charm with your SB (+2 Chain, +1 Banishing Light, +4 Mortars, +2 harness? No more Chandra?) We agreed last season stealing a creature only to swing it into dorks is bad... now its good?

Why are 1 drops all of sudden better vs Control (when they are packing much more early creature removal than last season?)? We all know they are terrible if they are not in your opening hand.

All the other cards make sense, those are no brainers.

[JohnnyfnB]

Why steal a creature and give it back, when we can just destroy it?

[Valdarith]

Why steal a creature and give it back, when we can just destroy it?

Because by turn 5-6 when you're casting Harness by Force you're typically swinging for lethal with their own guy. This is especially true late in the game. Harness by Force basically becomes an 8-10 damage burn spell for six mana that you can rip off the top of your deck and win out of nowhere.

[Purp]

On turn 5 or 6 they will def have more than one creature out(whether its mono black being able to sac a mutavault to their demon you take or monsters having a caratid on the ground to chump), and without the addition of a 24th land + the ability to scry for more, accomplishing this on turn 5-6 is not guaranteed.

[JohnnyfnB]

True, but it depends, especially vs MBC. When they have multiple creatures what do you choose? The demon they can just tap down? The smaller creature that they can just chump? What I'm getting at is if they have the ability to block, it's not that great of a spell. I do see what you are saying and as a mono red mage I have killed people with that spell several times. I personally would rather play the cheaper, faster answer once spell.

[JohnnyfnB]

Purp beat me too it.

[Lightning_Dolt]

It needs to be tested. I've won too many games on the back of Zealous Conscripts to ignore it. I believe this card's power level is similar.

[Lightning_Dolt]

Also, I'll write something up on eidolon of the great revels. I've had a few people ask me about it and I want to answer once and for all.

[Purp]

It needs to be tested. I've won too many games on the back of Zealous Conscripts to ignore it. I believe this card's power level is similar.

Conscripts was not played in a time of demon.

Revel just seems bad. It is not currently MD worthy, and if you side it in vs deck with 3cmc removal down, it could be good. But then at that point its only good on turn 2.

[JohnnyfnB]

Zealous Conscripts is ALSO a big creature with haste attacking as well. It's a situational card. It could be amazing or it could be dead. You would have better results with Lava Axe. Yup, I went there. The "Act of Treason" cards can do damage, at worst they remove a chump blocker. Personally, that's not good enough for me. I attribute the same usefulness/uselessness of that type of card as I do to Boros Reckoner. Amazing card in certain situations and crappy in others. But hey, play what you feel is best and what your comfortable with and have fun.

[JohnnyfnB]

Purp beat me again.

[Elricity]

This thread is quite amusing, I love the hivemind like process most of you guys are on.

"We have" is my drinking game for this thread. Thankfully I'm not in the hospital. I respect Z's opinion but oye. That said, I don't think it's *quite* that bad this time.

I would favor reprisal since it stops regeneration which is going to be relevant with BG of any flavor.

On the threaten, it is the strive that might make it playable right now. To make it decent vs mbc, I think you have to go scorched earth. In a heavy creature build, it worked fine because taking demon cleared two blockers which was enough for the win right there.

Back on Trouble, I want that spell to consistantly do 5 damage or I just don't like it. I'm still
using it on MTGO but when Journey goes live there, I'm taking a serious look at it since in my cockatrice games, the new cards are letting them dump their hand too fast for my liking. Might be too small a sample though.

I am a sucker for mana dumps though. I miss truefire paladin being good last season.

[Lightning_Dolt]

http://community.ist.utl.pt/viewtopic.p ... 13#p225213

[Elricity]

I would love to try dragons again but man is that card narrow.

[zenbitz]

The fact there there is a wide disparity in experiences between playing BGdrege leads me to conclude that there is some technique or deep background knowledge that some of us are missing.
I lose against dredge but I lose lots of matches because I am not very good and the deck is pretty difficult to pilot (very low margin for error).

I am not even sure if we are the beatdown in that deck ... but I have to to think not. Possibly it's simply getting in their head -- not only have I never played BGdredge -- I've never REALLY played any similar deck. I mean, I get the concept (fill gravyyard, profit) but it's certainly not as straight forward as the MBC matchup (burn rat, dodge demon, hope they use underworld connections, keep pinging away).

Anyone have videos of a good game/match against BG dredge? I.,e not one where either side nut draws or gets mana screwed?

[Elricity]

You're control there with the exception of some very special hands. Phoenix does most of the work.

[Lightning_Dolt]

I'll try to play some games (and maybe record it?) tomorrow.

[NotARobot]

So thoughts on harness by force as mentioned by zem - it can't possibly be correct to board it vs mbx, can it? Seems like vs demons it's almost always a dead card from the few games I tried it in. I really like reprisal though. Anyone else testing it
out?

[magicdownunder]

The main problem I have with Harness by Force is that we don't that many creatures of our own to capitalize with the spell, back in Pyro days threaten meant we falter a blocker and swing with our team (+one of there guys) which usually meant gg.

Nowadays if you bring it in against Monsters, Jund or Bx Devotion you either win (if your REALLY LUCKY) or you kill dorks, 0/3 walls, 2/4 semi-walls or make your opp. removal active..... (not saying Harness by Force is bad its just that in creature based decks like RDW where you need to kill everything to get your team in threaten is great... in a burn deck not so much).

[url=http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/a ... ly/mol/poy]P.S. Since my absents I dropped 3 places (now rank 33 )[/
url]

@Reprisal: Since I STILL don't really have time to play, I'll just monitor the MTGO results since JOU is now released - IF GWx, GRx, GBx and BWx gain top6 positions I'll run two.